To The Freemasons of ATS

originally posted by: JokerThe1st
could i also ask does financial viability have any place within the order?

Technically you need to be gainfully employed prior to joining as a Mason is expected to support himself and his family. However, we have paid the initiation fee and dues of a man who was badly injured in Afghanistan and another who's physical handicap prevented him from working.

another question that bounces around at times is these other organizations like 322 or Golden Dawn,Knights Templar,Thule society etc .... there are to many to list lol oh and of course i should mention the cliche, Illuminati.

are these off shoots of masonry in your opinions?

There are Knights Templar Degrees in the York Rite (Ksig would have more information) and the rest of the groups you listed have nothing to do with Masonry.

originally posted by: JokerThe1st
the only reason i did not want to get into the political members discussion is because i never brought it up per se. I know i said there are plenty that are members but i shall correct myself from that sweeping statement and say there are plenty attached to various society's and orders which may or may not be officially affiliated with masonry.

As I stated earlier, 6 was the last number I saw that was part of Masonry, the other groups would not be relevant to Masonry.

Also when i stated ''I am sorry but that excludes a huge portion of mankind.'' i was talking more of the convicted felons. I apologize i should of made that clearer.
This indeed excludes a lot of decent people who have made mistakes in there lives or have been convicted on trumped up charges.

The percentage of convicted felons in the United States is about 6%, again, the vast majority still qualifies.

If a persons morality is not effected by a lawful crime does this mean they deserve exclusion. i guess what i am getting at is if a person is convicted of lets say shoplifting or possession something minor, can they not change and become a decent human ? why should they be excluded for such ?
I have met many a decent man who have made mistakes in past experiences.

You are speaking of misdemeanors, I said felons: rapists, murderers, etc. Huge difference.

Is there certain lodges that are not deemed official in the world ??? from my understanding there is a fair amount of debate as to where official authority stems from, is this correct?

There are many that are considered irregular. To be considered regular you must follow the Ancient Landmarks, it is not open to debate.

originally posted by: JokerThe1st
a reply to: Krakatoa


originally posted by: JokerThe1st
a reply to: Krakatoa
when i use the term black brothers you know full well i am not referring to race

Please understand that my question was not ''racially baited'' when i used the term Black i was using it in it's more original meaning of ''Evil'' Bad intent etc....

I am a little disappointed that you took it that way to be honest, but like you say that is your personal opinion.
I shall rephrase the question for you

Does masonry contain The Positive brotherhood and The Negative brotherhood ?
is there both branches of extremity within your ranks?

Well, in that respect, thanks for clarifying. I have not seen or heard anything that would be considered "black" arts myself. However, the interpretation of "black art" or "negative" in this context is very subjective. What I see as not "black arts" may qualify to you as "black arts". For example, to the Catholic church, anything that is NOT based upon Jesus Christ as the only savior can be considered "black arts" or "occult". So, my personal beliefs could very well be considered "occultism" even though it is in now way associated with Lucifer or Satan (for example). It is different, that's all, and as such could be interpreted as such...like Buddhism, Islam, etc...

So, as you see, that is a very subjective thing to answer....depending upon the interpretation of the viewer. Perhaps it is more akin to Schrödinger's cat (it is both Black and not Black depending upon the viewer).

a reply to: JokerThe1st
We do have annual dues so if you don't have the finances to pay them then that makes it hard to retain membership. I set a budget each year for how much I have to pay in dues and travel costs as my memberships require me to travel to Washington, Wyoming, Virginia, all over Idaho, and wherever strikes my fancy. One of my officers works as a clerk at a Maverick (gas station).

These groups are not necessarily Masonic. There is a Knights Templar group in Masonry, but there are also several non-Masonic Knights Templar groups out there.

a reply to: KSigMason

Is there required reading of certain Books(s) that masons must undertake to evolve through the degree's and are they available to the public?

If there is one peice of Art that all Masons would admire, what do you think it would be?

a reply to: TSOM87

Nice question

J.S.M. Ward wrote a bunch of handbooks, but

In 1987 the British Grand Lodge informed its members that "J.S.M. Ward's handbooks have no official standing and are not issued by Lodges to candidates. They were personal and very idiosyncratic interpretations of the history and meaning of the Craft rituals" Wikipedia

There are other numerous books and i believe you can find at least some of the degrees in full detail.

Hopefully some of the members will give us an idea

a reply to: Krakatoa

I understand what you are saying as far as being a very subjective question, for me the answer comes with the individual intent of the person.

for example Magic is magic the magicians intent or focus is what makes it black or white.

But thank you for the answer and i shall stop harping on about it.

And i agree occult workings are by no means instant black arts, the bit that gets me is the catholic church's ceremony's and rituals are most certainly based in the occult arts/sciences.

I have trouble in relating the Occult to Black arts as there meanings are very different.

a reply to: KSigMason

So essentially you need to have a reasonable income (when i say this the bar is fairly low) But it would not be viable on very low income, generally speaking of course.

In the spirit of charity has anyone ever thought of opening special low income, financed lodges (give some of the riff raff a chance) ?

Just a thought not a dig at Freemasonry, i do to a degree understand why it is needed for members to be financially independent.

originally posted by: KSigMason
a reply to: JokerThe1st

7. My faith is Christian albeit esoteric or gnostic Christianity (such as Rosicrucianism). I believe there could be other life forms out there, but I cannot say what.

A bit off topic but could you expand on this? I used to think of myself as a gnostic Christian but realized that it wasnt possible for me to be both. One way, you are saved by gods grace/faith alone and the other way you are saved by your own works/deeds. According to the gnostics, Jesus was never meant to be diefied.

These paths dont seem to go hand in hand. At least this is how I understand it. Can gnosticism and Christianity really work together?

originally posted by: JokerThe1st
a reply to: KSigMason

So essentially you need to have a reasonable income (when i say this the bar is fairly low) But it would not be viable on very low income, generally speaking of course.

In the spirit of charity has anyone ever thought of opening special low income, financed lodges (give some of the riff raff a chance) ?

Just a thought not a dig at Freemasonry, i do to a degree understand why it is needed for members to be financially independent.

Reasonable income means you can afford to spend the money on dues, charity, travel, etc... To the Masonic order, family is job #1. If you cannot provide for your family by legal means, then you should wait until you can before joining. The order would never ask a brother to put the lodge before family.

a reply to: TSOM87
If a progression is required to pass from one degree to the next it will be provided by the Lodge. The ritualistic monitor my Grand Lodge uses is coded and to learn the cipher you must first learn it by listening to it from someone else.

There's no real style of sample of art, but I personally like medieval iconography.

a reply to: JokerThe1st
Reasonable to one's life. I am single without kids so I have free reign on my budget while someone with a family must first provide for them. I am currently a full-time college student and my income is very low, but I still set aside funds for Freemasonry. It's all about budgeting and time management; in general I follow the 6-Ps: Proper planning prevents piss poor performances (this goes for financial planning as well).

Many Lodges have very low dues and I think that is a problem as it has cheapened Freemasonry. That's my opinion though.

www.travelingtemplar.com...

I have myself though, with the help of other Past Master's, paid for a few Brother's dues when they fell on hard times.

a reply to: Tucket
I do believe I can be both, but gnostic/esoteric Christianity doesn't go hand in hand with, what I think is, a watered down, puritanical version we see today.

this is a great thread. I'm learning a lot, like how i'm potentially barred from becoming a freemason because of my past, and how some of the most fundamental segments of the order are aimed at pure and positive being. it is very interesting. i hope someone who needs this thread as much as I do gets as much as I am getting out of it. thanks to all contributors

a reply to: Smibb

this is a great thread. I'm learning a lot, like how i'm potentially barred from becoming a freemason because of my past, and how some of the most fundamental segments of the order are aimed at pure and positive being. it is very interesting. i hope someone who needs this thread as much as I do gets as much as I am getting out of it. thanks to all contributors

The very reason i began this thread, I hope there are others who feel they are learning from this discourse as well, also if anyone (including the masons) think there is any important questions missed please don't hesitate to ask or comment.

originally posted by: JokerThe1st
Dear Freemasons

I am writing to you in the hope that you will be willing and permitted to talk/write here on ATS about your order and answer some questions, At the same time i do understand that you won't talk about certain things as you have all sworn your oath's.

All they will do is conceal what their members are doing to non-masons, which hopefully is what concerns you.

There were two trees in the garden of eden, the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The latter tree was forbidden by God and is what the Kabbalah and Freemasonry is based on, and where you will find the fallen angels.

So much for Masonic teachings.

freemasonrywatch.org...

originally posted by: FW4ats

So much for Masonic teachings.

freemasonrywatch.org...

Aww, look, what a fine site to gather information from. A good Christian love site with no agenda at all.
What a super contribution to this thread.

originally posted by: JokerThe1st

If possible, in your responses could you state your degree and lodge type e.g. Scottish rite/York rite etc... I am not asking for any identifiable information at all and ask this of you for the reason of interest as to the level of understanding relative to the degree you hold.

I am an English Freemason under the jurisdiction of the Grand Lodge of England, District of South Africa North, and will therefore give you an English Mason's perspective, which is sometimes different to American Masonry.

Degree and Lodge type:
Current Worshipful Master of a Craft (Blue) Lodge
Past Master of another Craft Lodge
District Regional Mentor in the district of South Africa North
1st Principal in the Holy Royal Arch
Supreme Ruler elect of the Order of the Secret Monitor
District Grand officer in the Order of the Secret monitor
Captain of the Guard in Knights Templar
Captain of the Guard in the Rose Croix (similar to the American Scottish rite)

1.Freemasons claim to be working for the brotherhood of man yet there are a few points that would seem counter productive to this, Your order appears to be an exclusive,elitist order with a powerful hierarchy this in essence is negative. I shall explain, when a person is elevated above another,given special rights and so on the only natural course is for resentment towards those of higher status.

To quote the ritual: "The Level demonstrates that we are all sprung from the same stock, partakers of the same nature, and sharers in the same hope; and although distinctions among men are necessary to preserve subordination, yet ought no eminence of situation make us forget that we are Brothers; for he who is placed on the lowest spoke of fortune's wheel is equally entitled to our regard; as a time will come, and the wisest of us knows not how soon, when all distinctions, save those of goodness and virtue, shall cease, and Death, the Grand Leveller of all human greatness, reduce us to the same state."

The same is true with secrets, to stand and claim out loud ''we know something you don't know'' does no good for peaceful relationships in our world and for those not privy to such secrets will always end up despising the holders (does it really have to be this way?)

Have you ever delved into the reason for this secrecy? It is largely so that the impact of the ritual is not lost on the Candidate due to the lack of the element of surprise. When a potential Candidate applies to join Freemasonry, I will gladly take his wife around the Lodge and explain everything to her - all the symbolism, all the mysteries, but the Candidate must wait outside and hear nothing. Furthermore, a Candidate must first understand the basics before further mysteries are revealed. Incomplete knowledge easily results in misinterpretation of knowledge, which is often hard to "unlearn."

This is also evident with the Jewish race, by claiming to be God's chosen people above all others they have become the major cause of anti-Semitic behavior, those outside the given group will always boil in resentment at the arrogance of those ''Who know better'' you see my point.

The Bible tells them so no less than 21 times, so it makes sense that they, as a Bible believing religion, as well as all other Bible-believing religions, should accept this as the truth. Those that don't believe the Bible normally simply choose to ignore this statement, and their acceptance thereof.

2.Why do so many masons still deny the existence of 33 degrees? it has become extremely common knowledge for anyone interested in the subject (I have experienced this with a Past Master in person) Doing this only makes you look like all those lovely politicians who lie there arses off to everyone on a daily basis (Not a good look guys)

No Mason denies the existence of the 33° Degree within the Scottish Rite (or English Rose Croix). 4°-32° can be done by any Mason who wishes to do so. 33° is an honorary award given for long service to the Order. No more, no less. 33° is not found outside of the Scottish Rite or the English Equivalent thereof.

3.Is the esoteric and occult still involved with masonry, I have spoken with masons in the past and it would appear most of there time is spent going to meetings,dinners,charity events,Admin duty's,donating money etc.... while i understand your rituals and ceremony's are based upon such i have heard it said many a time that there meanings have been lost is this in anyway correct?

Sadly, there is not nearly enough esoteric/occult knowledge remaining in Freemasonry, and much of it has been removed from the older Rituals. I am on a serious mission to bring occult/esoteric knowledge back into Masonry, and I am very actively pursuing this through lectures in Lodges, forums, etc, which is perhaps part of the reason why I managed to get myself appointed as the Regional Mentor within my District.

4.There are 33 known about degrees, personally i believe there to be around 360 at a bet. is there any truth to this?

If you add up the different Degrees in all of the additional Orders, there are well over 100 different degrees, but I think 360 is a way-over-the-top estimate. Also, these have a horizontal, and not a vertical hierarchy, which means any Mason can elect to do any of them in any particular order (one is not higher than the other.)

5.I understand there is a dual nature to our existence with this in mind could you tell me if the following statement is true
''Freemasonry contains The brothers of Light and The Black brothers.''

Not true.

6.Freemasonry claims discussion of Politics and Religion is not allowed in lodges yet this is exactly where your order appears to hold most of it's power. Also your rituals are loosely religious and you are all given a personal Bible. Not to mention the huge amount of religious symbolism you guys use. these contradictions i find difficult to grasp although i have read worship is directed to the lodge master rather than god ?

Discussion of religious or political discussion within the Lodge is forbidden. However, outside of the Lodge, we have what we call 'enlightened Fellowship' where we can speak freely on any topics without any judgement. We listen, absorb, and make our own conclusions, all of which we keep to ourselves. Debates on such topics are commonplace outside the Lodge, but always done with respect, and a listening, non-judgmental ear. Our rituals are religious in nature, meaning that we draw from the Great Religions of the world for the moral and social virtues we which value and practice, but we have no dogma, and are not a religion. In my Lodge, we do present every Candidate with their own Volume of Sacred Law on their initiation (which would be a Bible for a Christian), signed by every person present at their initiation, but not all Lodges do this.

7. and last of all what are you beliefs on Creation, God/Gods, Aliens etc... if any at all

This is up to the individual Mason, although the Belief in God is essential for every Candidate for Freemasonry. I, personally, am Panentheistic.

originally posted by: JokerThe1st
a reply to: Krakatoa

Also with only 3 degrees proper as you say, why is it every master mason or 3rd degree is offered entrance into the royal arch, which i might add has been called the doorway or entrance to real masonry ?

The Holy Royal Arch is the completion of the third Degree, and joining the Royal Arch and going through the Three Principals Chairs is required to attain a complete understanding of the rituals presented in the Three Degrees of Craft Masonry.

originally posted by: JokerThe1st

The degrees above master mason do have significance as to hierarchy, the brothers who have progressed to such i am sure would hold very different opinion to yourself. As far as is understood the knowledge and understandings are not conveyed between brothers of differing degrees they are kept fairly separate above and beyond the 3rd degree.

Please correct me if i am wrong but a higher degree is not permitted to impart there knowledge of such to a lower degree?
without of course permission to admit such into higher degrees ?

You're missing the whole point of Freemasonry. The wisdom within each degree is learned by serious contemplation on the Ritual in that Degree. Somebody else may tell you, and is allowed to tell you, the Wisdom contained in any Degree, but you may not understand or accept that wisdom, since you have not figured it out for yourself.

It is not that we may not tell you the wisdom contained in each Degree, for we may, but usually we cannot, since it must be figured out for yourself.

originally posted by: JokerThe1st

for example Magic is magic the magicians intent or focus is what makes it black or white.

Correct, but the Lessons taught in Freemasonry cannot be used for any dark purpose - it is simply not in their nature.

And i agree occult workings are by no means instant black arts, the bit that gets me is the catholic church's ceremony's and rituals are most certainly based in the occult arts/sciences.

And why does this make it bad?

originally posted by: JokerThe1st

So essentially you need to have a reasonable income (when i say this the bar is fairly low) But it would not be viable on very low income, generally speaking of course.

About US$100 is required to cover annual dues.