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My solution to Islam (from a western POV)

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posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 11:54 AM
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originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: beezzer

People who, without the aid, would be sitting at home complaining... instead of waging a war.



Then shouldn't we be focusing on the complaints?



If they aren't complaining, then no amount of money will encourage so much death.




posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 11:56 AM
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originally posted by: TDawgRex
a reply to: demus

Huh? Haven't had much sleep?

The war between Shia and Sunni began way before the US was created.

The thing is, while they have been at war with each other for centuries, they have also managed to drag almost every one else into it, one way or another, for better or worse. This has been going on for centuries.

Try reading other books or thoughts that challenge you. You may learn a few things.


you specifically mentioned recent conflict and your personal encounter with people influenced by it.

failed to mention that destinies of those people you were talking about were directly influenced by US invasion of Iraq because after the invasion and during occupation all hell break loose.



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 11:57 AM
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originally posted by: LarryLove

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: beezzer

Because people funded it who wanted the conflict to exist.

(not rhetorical)


You can pour money into something all day long.

It takes people that want war for it to continue.


… and governments, corporations, despotic individuals, ideologies, the poor, the rich, the inbetweeners, Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, …


But those are things or ideologies. The root of it all is MAN or mankind I should say (since I'm no radical feminist to believe the patriarchy is the root of all evil).

Watch the Book of Eli sometime to see a good demonstration of this. You had the protagonist walking around with the last Bible and the antagonist who was already an evil, despotic SOB who wanted the Bible and what it represented to him - the power of religion - for his own ends to further his own power and control over people.

The fact of the matter is that Eli spent the whole movie with that "power" within his grasp and never used it for control, only as inspiration for himself, and the evil despot was already an evil man without it. Religion or the Bible was not the cause of the evil. It was a neutral thing that either made the people around it better or worse, but it never died, only spread. All the evil and violence that happened in the movie came as a result of efforts of people who had never read what was in the Bible to even know whether or care what it might teach on the subject of their behavior.
edit on 6-7-2014 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)

edit on 6-7-2014 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 12:00 PM
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originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: TDawgRex

There was no reason for the US to ever get involved that's the thing. US involvement has only worsened anything already going on there by several degrees of magnitude, our involvement has only caused destabilization which causes all new problems to arise. Even if we look at the whole picture from the POV of the imperialists we are, Saudi Arabia is the only nation we ever needed to protect and no terrorists or Middle East nations have ever really threatened Saudi Arabia. Israel should be left on its own and always should have been. They wanted that area, they should have fought for it on their own and they should defend it on their own. In all honesty what the hell is in it for the US? Nothing but a money sink and a fitting label of hypocrites. I have nothing against the Jewish faith but Israeli policy and US defense of it is wrong.

The US has earned every ounce of hatred directed towards us coming from the ME... and yet Americans cry about how Islam harms us, how it's bad and nothing but violence. It's galling to me, that we cry about harm to our troops (yes I care about them, get them the fk out!), our military facilities, our defense (LOL) contractors being targeted while it is ALL happening OVER THERE, in their backyards, at their schools, at their places of worship. What has happened here at home? One horrible day and I would never trivialize that day or the lives lost nor would I deny praise to the heroics we saw that day and the following days but still it was one day 13 years ago and there hasn't been an attack on US soil since, so how are they the ones out to get us?

It seems to me that they are on the defense from without and from within.


really, it makes you wonder what was their goal with last 20 years wars?

divide and conquer.



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 12:01 PM
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a reply to: beezzer

Focus on the complaints?

lol....

Is everyone in America happy with everything?

You cannot please all the people all the time, but you can please most of the people some of the time... going on that basis, the complainants need to find better avenues for their complaints.

When we feel something is unfair in this country, we work on changing laws. If people cannot be adult enough to work within the system to deal with their disputes, and/or realize that their voice is not inclusive of all of the people and in life they cannot have everything they might like to have... then they are not adult enough to have ANYONE listen to their complaint.


edit on 6-7-2014 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 12:04 PM
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a reply to: Kali74

I agree that we never should have gone to Iraq. But the TPTB apparently thought the current sanctions were not having enough effect. That was then...this is now. The now is pretty bad. Did we have a hand in it, I would agree, yes. But ignoring the situation will not make it go away. That's not how it works.

You cannot undo a mistake, you can only try to make it right again.

Make no mistake. This is a war among cultures, and it will drag everybody into this mess.

Pretty ironically odd that Russia, Iran and the US agree that IS/ISIL are a threat?

And how the world treats Africa in regards to Boko Harem and Al-Shaboob as a brushfire conflict?



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 12:07 PM
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originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: beezzer

Focus on the complaints?

lol....

Is everyone in America happy with everything?


Of course not.


You cannot please all the people all the time, but you can please most of the people some of the time... going on that basis, the complainants need to find better avenues for their complaints.


Instead of killing people.


When we feel something is unfair in this country, we work on changing laws. If people cannot be adult enough to work within the system to deal with their disputes, and/or realize that their voice is not inclusive of all of the people and in life they cannot have everything they might like to have... then they are not adult enough to have ANYONE listen to their complaint.



Agreed. But couldn't that apply everywhere for everybody?



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 12:08 PM
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a reply to: OpinionatedB

Yes that's what we have the freedom to do, that the entire West has the freedom to do without interference from others. I don't think the mighty west would ever have been so mighty if we had to dodge bullets and bombs and dirty dealings to prop up this warlord or that warlord who have zero interest in protecting their own people and only want to exploit them, on home soil for years and years on end.. no we wouldn't have the luxury to change our own societies and laws.



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 12:09 PM
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a reply to: TDawgRex

As I said, it will be alliances to be the ruin of the world.

You appear to agree. If not for alliances all these things will stay inside the middle east, or at least be contained within those old borders.

But you think we should keep up alliances, the one thing to be the ruin of us all... I beg to differ. It's time to let this play out among who it will play out with, and leave well enough alone.

We don't have the wherewithal to realize the good or the bad here.. what makes you think we can make any of this right, the attempt will only drag us into things we have no business in.



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 12:19 PM
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a reply to: OpinionatedB

I've always agreed with this quote.

"Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none." - Thomas Jefferson

But let's be honest. That will never happen in todays age.

There is always a agenda of some sort.

Ten years from now it might be the Chinese who are taking up space here on ATS as the evil doers. Hell, it's already happening.



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 12:30 PM
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a reply to: TDawgRex

It CAN happen in today's world... we simply choose not to practice it.

Everything is a choice, our choices are our own and we must deal with the consequences. We either live according to the good principles of our forefathers, or we ignore wise words and deal with what comes.

I don't want to deal with those consequences. We as a nation don't have to. It's a choice we can either choose for or choose against.



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 12:45 PM
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a reply to: OpinionatedB

I disagree. I lived for three years in the ME. If the US pulled back and let the world get on with it's life, we would soon see combat in the streets. Not criminal activity either, but actual combat.

Can our State Dept. do better? I think so.

But I am also fond of the saying, "Walk softly, but carry a big stick". And to let others know we are not afraid to use that big stick.

How can we as a nation tell others that we are OK with what they do, but yet unwilling to smack down those who wish us harm?

It's complicated and in more emotional times, I wish that we would just use the Nuke option. But then I calm down and realize that wouldn't do any good either. Good thing I'm not a National leader, huh?


I even admit that I am convoluted about my beliefs concerning the ME. But the thing is...none of them are really good.

Islam must reform itself, fast. Time is running out for them. They will end up the way of the Pagans or Wiccans before to long. Acknowledged, yet ignored.

Maybe that is what is needed?



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 12:47 PM
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since the thread deals with Islam I just wanted to post a video.

you cannot suppress what's inside your heart.




posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 12:51 PM
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a reply to: TDawgRex

Islam must be allowed to run its own natural course. You - who do not understand the people, religion, culture or any aspect of all of the above, cannot understand why when you decide to fix a thing it all goes to ###.

So long as everything you attempt goes to ###, it means you have no understanding of any of the aspects, no real understanding of what you are doing.

Islam and the followers thereof, just as with any other religion or thing, has a course it must run, in its own time and way.

The time different between Islam and Christianity is 600 years. Look at where christianity was 600 years ago, and you will understand the point in time Islam is in. Let it run its course in natural manner. You will be unable to effect it, without understanding it. ALL things happen in time, and time must be had for them to happen. Forcing a thing is not something anyone is able to do, not inside, nor outside.



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 01:02 PM
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a reply to: OpinionatedB

I would agree with you that Islam is in its own Dark Ages. The problem is that a Dark Ages mentality mixed with the weapons of a modern age is a very scary thing. How well do you think medieval Christianity would have done had they been handed the keys to nuclear arsenals?

It's one thing to say "Let them figure it out on their own." I can agree with you there. They need to. The problem is that with modern technology, their attempts to sort things out could have catastrophic consequences for entire rest of the world.

As has already been said, all the rest of us seem destined to get pulled into this even if we try to stay clear, and if we can't fix it, then we need to figure out how to contain it so it won't threaten to destroy us all.


edit on 6-7-2014 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 01:08 PM
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a reply to: OpinionatedB

I like to think that individuals, me included, can have a effect on destiny. The families and individuals I got to know while in Iraq during three tours, (always the Diyala province) were never practicing Muslims, no more than Christians are. they were just trying to do the best they could with what they had. Accident of birth, if you will.

I always tried to show good will to all in my own way, though I could just as easily become a Mother[Snip] if need be.

I knew my role as a Soldier, but I also knew my role as a human being. I've picked up pieces of children off the ground and hung up on fences after a suicide bombing when school released. So yea...I'm not a fan of Islam.

But at the same time, I watched people just trying to live and being drug down into a cesspool of war. Not a fan of that either. As I've said before, there are emotions involved and it's complicated for me. One minute I can be "Nuke them all!" and the a few minutes later, "Why can't we just get along?" Islam is one of the few instances where I am all over the map.

If Islam stands down and let's others live in peace, like most other religions/ideologies, then I will as well.
edit on 6-7-2014 by TDawgRex because: ETA

edit on 6-7-2014 by TDawgRex because: Spelling



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 01:12 PM
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a reply to: demus

When American Baptists rise up and start slaughtering the Methodists and Presbyterians, you'll have a point.

Until then, consider not living in the past.



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 01:20 PM
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a reply to: OpinionatedB

This kind of thinking is all good until...

It is akin to letting a wind driven wildfire run its course near a major city while hoping it will be somehow naturally contained without intervention... Is 10,000 to 20,000 homes and structures destroyed an acceptable outcome? What death toll would be acceptable?


edit on 6-7-2014 by ausername because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 01:29 PM
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a reply to: TDawgRex

Proverbs 26:17
Like one who grabs a stray dog by the ears
is someone who rushes into a quarrel not their own.


Peter 4:15

But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.


1 Thessalonians 4:10-11

10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;

11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you.


While there is much you may disagree with concerning religion, there is much wisdom in its teachings. There are reasons these lessons have been expressed for thousands of years...Call them from God, or just wise words... people have known the truth of these words for long...

What you wish to do is meddle, when you have no sure knowledge of what your meddling will cause. Now, you are beginning to see some of those consequences of meddling... yet... you want to fix it some more?



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 01:37 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

Who supplied those weapons and taught their make and their usage?

Who meddled to the point where ANY of this is an issue in your world?

To say, we messed it up to the point we cannot stop messing with it, is absolutely ridiculous. All that has been done to date is to make it all so much worse... it's past time to stop, but not too late to stop.
edit on 6-7-2014 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)




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