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My solution to Islam (from a western POV)

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posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 06:54 AM
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originally posted by: dmfsb

originally posted by: LightningStrikesHere
a reply to: FlyersFan

You truly are an ignorant fool ...

Constantly spreading lies and disinformation these boards about Islam.
No mater how many times my self and other members tell your copy and pasted bias information is most often always propaganda and the product of someone's wrongful interpretation and innovation you continue to be a fear mongering cancer .

Its disgusting ....




Today, most Western opinions of what life would be like for non-Muslims under Islamic rule are based on ignorance and fear. This fear is compounded further by media reports about behaviors in “Muslim” countries that most Americans -- ignorant of Al-Islam -- take to be Sharia Law. Repeatedly, mainstream media reports on “practices” in such countries as Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries -- whose “Laws” DO NOT REPRESENT true Sharia Law -- as sterling examples of Sharia rule. In many of these countries, Sharia is mixed with non-Islamic cultural practices, contrary to the objectives and intentions of the Sharia. Western media has associated Sharia Law with cruelty, backwardness, intolerance, anti modernism and opposed to democratic goals such as life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Our aim is to dispel some of these myths surrounding Sharia Law, and show it in its true light.

It is interesting to note that in 1602, after 800 years of Sharia rule and right after the Christians recaptured Spain, one of the great charges the Christians brought against Muslims was that Muslims were too tolerant in religion. The Archbishop of Valencia, in recommending the expulsion of Muslims from Spain stated:



www.ascertainthetruth.com...:dispelling-myths-about-sharia-law-in-al-islam-part-1-&catid=64:un derstanding-al-islam&Itemid=53






The last time someone appeased and kowtowed as hard as you just did 6,000,000 Jews died in concentration camps.



In have no idea what your talking about ?

And how does that relate to anything I am talking about ?

As if some how my words are going to cause the death of people?

Pull your head out of the mudd




posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 07:01 AM
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a reply to: LightningStrikesHere
As usual .. just lots of name calling from you and a failure to address the issues I gave ... issues from credible sources such as Human Rights Watch and Pew Research. The cultures of those countries and the laws are based on religion. Care to actually address the facts presented instead of cut and paste from Muslim propaganda sites?

Good luck proving that women have equal rights in Sharia ... or that homosexuals and adulterers aren't stoned to death ... or that people can leave Islam and not be put under a death sentence for 'apostasy'. Good luck proving that the laws in those lands aren't based upon interpretation of religious law.

Address the topic .. not the posters.



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 07:12 AM
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originally posted by: Shiloh7
a reply to: LABTECH767

Your history of Mohammad demonstrates how very different Western peoples values are to Muslims and unfortunately how there can be no compromise with people who think that a man like Mohammad, was actually a prophet from some kind of God.

However the Jews and the teaching they give their kids from the Talmud on how it instructs them to treat the Goy and unfortunately Goy babies, are precious little better. IMHO both those religions need to contain themselves purely to the desert and leave the rest of the world alone. I don 't think that some men need any religious encouragement to make predators and paedophiles out of themselves, let alone to think its actually morally right.

Unless one shares common values there is no common ground to build a strong united foundation on.

This is a fight that if it occurs, means that every soldier and fighter for the West will have to remember these people think that God is truly on their side and if they die trying to kill you, they will get 70 odd virgins in heaven - simply tells you how utterly mad they actually are and how dangerous.



The reference to the Talmud which I am unfamiliar with though I myself am a christian of Jewish extraction actually made me quite shocked so I went digging a little and found that the Talmud is actually a post expulsion document produced about 500 AD with the earlier of it's two texts dating back to 200 AD, now there is no justifying the 3 year old child but here is a jewish rabbinical take on that.
www.aish.com...
In my experience religion is a person by person thing and only indroctrination create's a uniform approach to it, take Islam and today's many derivative's, some later rewritten korans change the age of Aisha to 9 years of age (Still a child in my book) so obviously they felt bad and some miss out part's of the earlier sura's, the religion originally only talked of the neighbours of the Arab's but later it was rewritten to justify attacking there new neighbors in the land's they had conquered and forced to conversion.
Now it strike's me that this same level of introspective reinterpretation may have created members of the jewish faith whom believe one thing while others believe something quite different and the same thing has happened in all christian denomination's and also Hinduism and Buddhism.
Here is more on the Talmud as though Orthodox jew's whom of course originate mainly in russia believe it to be true and a book that was handed to Moses the truth is that it was not one of the original jewish text's at all, many rabbinic scroll's were undoubtedly lost and some of it may be derived from oral tradition but given the jewish exiles were litterate that is less than likely so it was a rabbinical text created probably in europe between 200 AD and 800 AD probably around 500 AD and it is correct to say that the Ten Commandments were the actual law of God, it is also true to say that in the old testament a woeful misrespect of woman is often portrayed time and again, so it is refreshing that it was through a woman that our saviour was born and that she is the highest that any member of the house of Israel as ever risen before God.
en.wikipedia.org...
Of course the Talmud is still likely older than islam so it could have influenced the nature of that most beligerant of the major religions at it's inception if Muhammed had been introduced to it by jewish merchant's.
Personally I would challenge the Talmud on this, a 3 year old child is far to young to arrange a marriage contract for and the child should be allowed to make her own decisions as woman in today's later and more enlightened age are allowed in the west.
Still remember our world grew out of the moral tale's and teaching so the christian interpretation of the old testament and the law's of the jewish religion are primarily in the Torah which is the first five book's of the old testament, mostly written by man though regarded as inspired by God with only the Ten commandment's as God's universal law's not only to judaism but to all humanity and in the new testament we receive the one law that tie's them together, love thy neighbour as thyself (but oh how woefuly do we all fail in that), remember covet not that which it thy neighbours (that of course includes his children and indeed children are neighbours themselves so peodophiles are absolutely in breech of that basic law and any later law's that contradict these or can be shown to contradict them are obviously not in accord with the will or law of god).
Thou shalt not steal (how many invasions and forced conversions, slavery itself even in the old testament is against this law as the ulimate theft is the theft of a person, rape as well is a transgression of more than one of these basic true law's.
Thou shalt not bear false witness, any change or in the case of religions that claim to be of the same god whome gave these basic law's are obviously false witness.
The list goes on and time and time again I see the codes of the desert people overruling the law's written by his own finger.
So for us as christians the Ten commandment's are the primary foundation of our faith, christs word's both amplify and fullfil these and the rest of the old testament is a chronology more than a holy book that lead's up to the new testament and of course the Talmud has no meaning for christians except were it agrees with our religion as it is a later invention much like the koran.



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 07:12 AM
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Two teenage girls just left the UK to to go Syria and fight with ISIL/ISIS, their brother had gone ahead of them to Iraq...

Now for all of you claiming that there is no widespread aim to establish an Islamic Sharia Caliph, these girls and their brother were SOMALIS. Why would 3 Somalis leave the UK to fight for ISIL/ISIS in SYRIA/IRAQ unless there was a desire to form such an entity?

news.sky.com...



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 07:29 AM
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I think there is a general consensus that everyone would like to live in a world where there is peace. Where people of different faiths can live side-by-side with no fear of violence or death.

Where there is no religion "trumping" another religion.

Where everyone has the freedom to believe as they wish.

Can someone name me a country in the middle east where that exists?



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 07:42 AM
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a reply to: LABTECH767

My take on Aisha, if she was the child of 6 to 9 at her marriage and the marriage was not consummated for a few more years is essentially the same as Robert Spencer's - in the day and age of Mohammad, such child marriages were very common across many cultures and the practice was not viewed anywhere near the same way it is viewed today by modern standards. To view Mohammad as a pedophile by our standards isn't entirely fair.

The problem comes when modern Muslims want to hold up Mohammad as the standard of the perfect life and thus carry on with child marriages like Aisha's claiming it is their religious right to do so. In the world of today, this is a very different thing across many different cultures.

This is just one example of where fundamental Islam has failed to adapt.



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 07:46 AM
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a reply to: beezzer

It doesn't exist here in the united states, why do you think it would be that way there?

But the most peaceful country in the ME is the UAE.
edit on 6-7-2014 by HauntWok because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 07:49 AM
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originally posted by: beezzer
I think there is a general consensus that everyone would like to live in a world where there is peace. Where people of different faiths can live side-by-side with no fear of violence or death. Where there is no religion "trumping" another religion. Where everyone has the freedom to believe as they wish.

Sorry beezzer but ... no, everyone doesn't want that. That's not the general consensus. Religious fanatics want the world THEIR WAY ... and that means that other religions disappear or are subservient (dhimi) The world needs to evolve past the nonsense of the bronze age. But indoctrination stops people from moving forward and without leaving those nonsensical notions behind, there will be no peace.



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 07:50 AM
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originally posted by: beezzer
I think there is a general consensus that everyone would like to live in a world where there is peace. Where people of different faiths can live side-by-side with no fear of violence or death.

Where there is no religion "trumping" another religion.

Where everyone has the freedom to believe as they wish.

Can someone name me a country in the middle east where that exists?


Oman. But that is as a result of religious preaching outside of legitimate services/ceremonies being banned for all people. I believe Syria also had a wonderful mix of populations before it was colonised by ISIL/ISIS.



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 07:52 AM
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originally posted by: HauntWok
a reply to: beezzer

It doesn't exist here in the united states, why do you think it would be that way there?

But the most peaceful country is the UAE.


Thank you.

You've basically helped in making my point.

We can look at countries where it is "mostly" peaceful, but even in the US there is conflict.

We'll never be rid of religion. (Faith is different, but that is my opinion and a subject for another thread)

And as long as we have religion, there will be conflict/war.

My question remains the same, however.

Do we live in a world where we are slaves and subjects to a theocracy, or do we become the winners/masters in a world where theocracy exists?

Isolation will only take us so far. Leaving well enough alone might work in the short-term, but not in the long view.



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 07:54 AM
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originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: beezzer
I think there is a general consensus that everyone would like to live in a world where there is peace. Where people of different faiths can live side-by-side with no fear of violence or death. Where there is no religion "trumping" another religion. Where everyone has the freedom to believe as they wish.

Sorry beezzer but ... no, everyone doesn't want that. That's not the general consensus. Religious fanatics want the world THEIR WAY ... and that means that other religions disappear or are subservient (dhimi) The world needs to evolve past the nonsense of the bronze age. But indoctrination stops people from moving forward and without leaving those nonsensical notions behind, there will be no peace.


I meant the general consensus here on ATS.

The world?

Warwarwar.

In the name of peace.



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 07:56 AM
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originally posted by: dmfsb

originally posted by: beezzer
I think there is a general consensus that everyone would like to live in a world where there is peace. Where people of different faiths can live side-by-side with no fear of violence or death.

Where there is no religion "trumping" another religion.

Where everyone has the freedom to believe as they wish.

Can someone name me a country in the middle east where that exists?


Oman. But that is as a result of religious preaching outside of legitimate services/ceremonies being banned for all people. I believe Syria also had a wonderful mix of populations before it was colonised by ISIL/ISIS.


So there is peace, but under strict control. In the case of Syria, why didn't it last? (rhetorical)



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 08:01 AM
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originally posted by: HauntWok
But the most peaceful country is the UAE.

Well ... as long as you aren't a woman.
Human Rights Watch - UAE Condones Sexual Violence
Domestic Violence on the Rise in UAE


Most Peaceful Countries In the World - and why they are picked
Iceland , Denmark, New Zealand, Austria, Switzerland, Japan, Finland, Canada



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 08:02 AM
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originally posted by: dmfsb

originally posted by: beezzer
I think there is a general consensus that everyone would like to live in a world where there is peace. Where people of different faiths can live side-by-side with no fear of violence or death.

Where there is no religion "trumping" another religion.

Where everyone has the freedom to believe as they wish.

Can someone name me a country in the middle east where that exists?


Oman. But that is as a result of religious preaching outside of legitimate services/ceremonies being banned for all people. I believe Syria also had a wonderful mix of populations before it was colonised by ISIL/ISIS.


I would disagree with Syria because Bashar al-Assad has been about as good at running his country as Saddam was. Yes, the people didn't kill each other along sectarian lined, but that was because they were more or less united in misery.

I would submit that Lebanon used to be more what we are looking for, but you have to go back to before Muslims became the majority.



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 08:02 AM
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Breaking news: Overnight attack in Kenya leaves 29 dead

news.sky.com...

Al Shabaab at work again, sadly this latest attack comes in the same county where last month 60 people were killed by the Islamist Group in another attack.



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 08:10 AM
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I say we look for a nation that has had a lasting peace and adopt their religion.

Suck it up, Christians and muslims!

If it's Pastafarian, then we might just have to deal with it.



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 08:30 AM
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a reply to: beezzer

That's just it - Lebanon was peaceful ... until the Muslims gained the majority and decided to make it their way or the highway.

So exactly how were the Christians to blame? They let the Muslims live how they wanted, and the Muslims took the existing governmental system and turned it to their advantage as soon as they had the numbers to do so. Then they turned on their Christian neighbors and later their southern neighbors.



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 08:33 AM
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Flyers Fan:

I asked what category of Islam we were discussing based on logical, provable, separations: a) all Muslims, b) Al Qaeda and similar organizations and c) the ISIS or so-called Caliphate.

You suggested a fourth category:



D - Sharia Muslims wanting their caliphate spread around the world


You previously quoted an article from The Blaze website that misrepresented the report I listed from Pew Research. To wit, this one: The World's Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society

I demonstrated examples from that which countered the claims of theBlaze article as well as your claims.

Now, you're quoting a different article, and a whole host of sites regarding "sharia" law.

So, now we'll look at this new evidence.

The report from the "Templeton Foundation" basically summarizes the findings of the same report I cited earlier. To wit, this one: The World's Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society

So, AGAIN, let's look at what that report actually states in light of your claim that all "Sharia Muslims" want to impose a world-wide "Caliphate."

From the VERY FIRST PARAGRAPH in your Templeton summary:



In most countries surveyed, a majority of Muslims want sharia—the legal system and moral code of Islam—to be the official law of the land. But the research also implies that most Muslims also want freedom of religion for people of other faiths.


... and from the SECOND PARAGRAPH in your Templeton summary:



According to the authors of the report, entitled, “The World's Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society,” most of those who favor sharia as the law of the land do not believe Islamic law should apply to non-Muslims.


So, these two fundamental statements clearly put the lie to your "Sharia Muslims Wanting their Caliphate Spread Around the World."

That's from the survey you keep citing second-hand. May I suggest you read it first hand?

Summary: According to the Pew Research that FlyersFan has cited on two occasions, world-wide Muslims feel that non-Muslims should have freedom to practice their own religion and that sharia law should apply only to Muslims. These two items alone, since this piece has been used twice now to make the argument, prove that based on this evidence, there's no such thing as "Category D."

~~~~~
The part that won't matter to anyone:

Now, am I a fan of sharia law? Absolutely not. As with most material based on religion, I find it ludicrous, cruel, barbaric, backward and toxic. This is one of the reasons that I object so strenuously to the continual erosion of the Separation of Church and State in the US.



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 08:34 AM
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a reply to: FlyersFan

i was actually hoping beezer was planning on moving. Thereby improving America slightly.

Ya i know the ME isn't the best place in the world to be a woman.

But hey, maybe you can move there too and make the ME less tolerant and understanding.



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 08:39 AM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: beezzer

That's just it - Lebanon was peaceful ... until the Muslims gained the majority and decided to make it their way or the highway.

So exactly how were the Christians to blame? They let the Muslims live how they wanted, and the Muslims took the existing governmental system and turned it to their advantage as soon as they had the numbers to do so. Then they turned on their Christian neighbors and later their southern neighbors.



I'm not blaming Christians for what happened in Lebanon.

I'm just seeing that any religion (once it reaches a threshold) appears to have a stability problem.

With Muslims, once they become the majority, then they try to take over.
With Christians, they've broken into so many branches it's hard to define.
Baptists
Catholics
Methodists
Protestants

Sure there was the Inquisition, the Crusades, but that was a few years ago.

Imagine the US.

Say the population was 51% Muslim. They would have the majority in the House, the majority in the Senate, they could write/influence Sharia law into the extant culture.

The ultra-religious Baptists could do the same thing.

The Catholics could do the same thing.

Is the answer never allowing any religion a majority?




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