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The pope condemns personal relationship with Christ

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posted on Jul, 8 2014 @ 08:31 AM
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originally posted by: [post=18120319]InTheLight

I say, there is time and place for every thing, and some of us can and some of us can't (attain that personal relationship with God).

Feel free to say, but you can get a personal relationship with God only thru the Blood and Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.




posted on Jul, 8 2014 @ 08:32 AM
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originally posted by: Nochzwei

originally posted by: [post=18120319]InTheLight

I say, there is time and place for every thing, and some of us can and some of us can't (attain that personal relationship with God).

Feel free to say, but you can get a personal relationship with God only thru the Blood and Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.


You are also free to say, but that is not my reality.



posted on Jul, 8 2014 @ 11:59 AM
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a reply to: BO XIAN

Dear BO XIAN,

As you've noticed, I tend to get pretty lengthy. I'll try to stop that here. There seem to be two serious questions, or discussions going on.

First, the role of a personal relationship with God. Of course, the Church wants you to have one. God wants relationships with people. Relationships are between two hearts, not between God and a corporation. Everybody agreed? Good. Forget this "Pope condemns" business, it was foolish at first glance.

Now, how do we get this relationship? How else would we even know about Jesus except through the Bible and some historical records? The Bible is always recommended as the first place to go in order to start a relationship with Jesus. We only have the Bible because of what is now known as the Roman Catholic Church.

The Church was required to make authoritative decisions about it, and protect it, and the faith, from heresies. We only know about Christianity at all, from the Church. We all depend on the work of thousands of people in the past and present to give us anything resembling a knowledge of Jesus and Christianity.

When people go off entirely on their own, we find a deplorable tendency to get "creative." There are preachers who claim that, if they receive $100, God will reward the giver with $1,000. Groups like Westboro come to mind. There are even individuals who start saying things like, "Jesus received His wisdom when he lived in India for a decade or more, therefore the true Christianity is Hinduism, or perhaps Buddhism."

Somebody has to be able to say "This is Christianity and this isn't," or else there is no such thing as Christianity.

Second, as far as aliens being demons. For now, let's agree that that is the case. How do you fight demons? Exorcisms are one way. And who has pretty much cornered the market on exorcisms? "Ah Hah!" he said with a mischievous smile dancing on his lips, "This ad for the Catholic Church has been brought to you by His Holiness Pope Francis, and by St. Peter. In business for nearly 2000 years. We're ready when you are, but this offer expires when you do."

As odd as this might sound, I would have no serious objections to an exorcism performed on any alien ship landing. But that's just my opinion.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Jul, 8 2014 @ 12:10 PM
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I don't often get angry when someone comes along and contradicts my beliefs. If I did, I imagine I would stay angry for the majority of my time here on earth, and that's no way to live. However, to hear this crap coming from the mouth of a Christian authority that many people look to for guidance does indeed draw my ire.

"Take heed that no man deceive you, for many will come in my name saying 'I am Christ,' and shall deceive many."
edit on 8.7.14 by Tacet because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 8 2014 @ 12:24 PM
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a reply to: charles1952

Wellll, Dear Bro . . . I think we are not so in unity on those issues.

1. God would have preserved His Word . . . and Did preserve His Word for 300 years or so before the RCC began. Of course, I understand that you disagree about when it began. LOL.

2. imho, the RCC has mangled the Bible--particularly in application--far more than it has preserved it accurately.

3. I think Holy Spirit is capable of making clear enough to those seeking His Truth . . . particularly with Biblical knowledge and understanding . . . what is Christian and what isn't.

3.1 A bloated bureaucracy is more likely to be like the pharisees than a good gatekeeper on authentic Holy Spirit led orthodoxy, imho.

4. Guy Malone has demonstrated with more than 400 cases that Christian spiritual warfare stops "ET" fallen angel abductions--sometimes when they've followed family bloodlines down for generations.

His YOU TUBE VIDEOS--including some from his panel of top flight scholars about the issues:

www.youtube.com... .1.11.youtube.U-QKbRBOIa8

and his website

www.alienresistance.org...



posted on Jul, 8 2014 @ 06:20 PM
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the only reason for the christ's death on the cross was to take the ancient symbol of the anhk and turn it into a torture device as a way of reconditioning the *Pagans* Semetics, cannanites, and the kingdoms of Kush was through christianity.

www.bible.ca...

"History of crucifixion:

Britannica reports that the first historical record of Crucifixion was about 519 BC when "Darius I, king of Persia, crucified 3,000 political opponents in Babylon" (Encyclopaedia Britannica, crucifixion)

Some further detail is given in "The Eerdman's Bible Dictionary", Rev. Ed., 1975: CROSS ... Crucifixion is first attested among the Persians (cf. Herodotus, Hist. i.128.2; iii.132.2, 159.1), perhaps derived from the Assyrian impalement. It was later employed by the Greeks, especially Alexander the Great, and by the Carthaginians, from whom the Romans adapted the practice as a punishment for slaves and non-citizens, and occasionaly for citizens guilty of treason. Although in the Old Testament the corpses of blasphemers or idolaters punished by stoning might be handged "on a tree" as further humiliation (Deut. 21:23), actual crucifixion was not introduced in Palestine until Hellenistic times. The Seleucid Antiochus IV Epiphanes crucified those Jews who would not accept hellenization (Josephus Ant. xii.240-41; cf 1 Macc. 1:44-50).

Archeological proof of the cross, as opposed to a stake.

(Text and photo is From Refuting Jehovah's Witnesses, by Randall Watters)

Historical findings have substantiated the traditional cross. One finding is a graffito1 dating to shortly after 200 A.D., taken from the walls of the Roman Palatine. It is a drawing of a crucified ass; a mockery of a Christian prisoner who worships Christ. The Romans were no doubt amused that Christians worshiped this Jesus whom they had crucified on a cross. "

Read more in the link.

Point is, The idea was that they claimed they killed the *messiah* of the semetic/akkadians cannaites or w.e that had prophecy about gods resurecting.
The idea was to make Jesus similar to Horus even the names are not to far off when we are speaking of language here.
Jes- Sounding words (Yes)- Dirreviative of Yes (Yehs) Hense the name Yeshu-Jesu Yeh-jeh( Jehhova) Yeshuwa YHWH Y-Yeh(Yes,Jus,yeh,jah)Yeshuwah* (Jes-us) (Yes-us) H is interchangable with S And Y is interchangable with J And W is interchangable with U ex( Where,ouare?) OS, Us,this is why its almost impossible to know how the real name sounded.

Anyways the point being is the symbol was reused as a tortue device. When the church was established. Original intention was to supress the semetic people of varying cultures and lands and their gods in establishment for total roman rule.

If we crucified your god and hes not coming anytime soon to help you, Then put faith in the church * Roman Empire*

When was the Roman
church Established?


"Roman Catholic Church
Religious Organization
The Catholic Church, also known as the Roman Catholic Church, is the largest Christian church, with more than 1.2 billion members worldwide. Wikipedia
Founded: 33 AD"

when was the library of Alexandria destroyed

"The first person blamed for the destruction of the Library is none other than Julius Caesar himself. In 48 BC, Caesar was pursuing Pompey into Egypt when he was suddenly cut off by an Egyptian fleet at Alexandria. Greatly outnumbered and in enemy territory, Caesar ordered the ships in the harbor to be set on fire"

Who was Julius Caesar

"Julius Caesar
Roman dictator
Gaius Julius Caesar was a Roman general, statesman, Consul, and notable author of Latin prose. He played a critical role in the events that led to the demise of the Roman Republic and the rise of the Roman Empire. Wikipedia
Born: 100 BC, Rome, Italy
Assassinated: March 15, 44 BC, Theatre of Pompey, Rome, Italy
Movies: Caesar the Conqueror
Children: Augustus, Caesarion, Julia Caesaris
Spouse: Cornelia Cinna minor (m. 83 BC–69 BC), Pompeia (m. 67 BC–61 BC), Calpurnia Pisonis (m. 59 BC–44 BC)"

Documented attack on Library of Alexandria

Where did the Dead sea scrolls come from

en.wikipedia.org...
"History

The date of the 3rd century BCE, given in the legend, is confirmed (for the Torah translation) by a number of factors, including the Greek being representative of early Koine, citations beginning as early as the 2nd century BCE, and early manuscripts datable to the 2nd century.[15]

After the Torah, other books were translated over the next two to three centuries. It is not altogether clear which was translated when, or where; some may even have been translated twice, into different versions, and then revised.[16] The quality and style of the different translators also varied considerably from book to book, from the literal to paraphrasing to interpretative.

The translation process of the Septuagint can be broken down into several distinct stages, during which the social milieu of the translators shifted from Hellenistic Judaism to Early Christianity. The translation began in the 3rd century BCE and was completed by 132 BCE,[17][18][19] initially in Alexandria, but in time elsewhere as well.[5]

The Septuagint is the basis for the Old Latin, Slavonic, Syriac, Old Armenian, Old Georgian and Coptic versions of the Christian Old Testament.[20]"

Alexandria was burned down for the purpose of destroying the Mythos held there of the coming *Messiah* And the prophecies developed there as propaganda against rome.

edit on 8-7-2014 by AnuTyr because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 8 2014 @ 09:16 PM
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originally posted by: charles1952
a reply to: BO XIAN



Somebody has to be able to say "This is Christianity and this isn't," or else there is no such thing as Christianity.

Second, as far as aliens being demons. For now, let's agree that that is the case. How do you fight demons? Exorcisms are one way. And who has pretty much cornered the market on exorcisms? "Ah Hah!" he said with a mischievous smile dancing on his lips, "This ad for the Catholic Church has been brought to you by His Holiness Pope Francis, and by St. Peter. In business for nearly 2000 years. We're ready when you are, but this offer expires when you do."

As odd as this might sound, I would have no serious objections to an exorcism performed on any alien ship landing. But that's just my opinion.

With respect,
Charles1952


hahahahhhhaha

In all seriousness.
The only reason why the holy water would kill them is because its tainted with bacteria the extra-solar visitors couldn't handle. So splash some dirty water on them and start chanting in tongues.
War of the worlds come to mind tho i think their chanting latin pros would aid in the effort. RRffglllbibleeebirrglibglob Baahaaahaanish THEE Grey E.T invader! *throws holy water* Fallen angle satan demon! I banish the Demons that are already within thee and ye itself is like a slug only the bacteria is single celled demons with the outer slug shell being the primary demon so every demon by logic is Satan.

I don't know. I can't keep on a wave length like that.
As for ET. Some be good some be bad, But making distinctions between literally white and black is as wrong as racism.
Black is not evil and White is nore good. Darkness is a figurative thing, Such as storm overshadowing.
Light implies peace. These are not physical places nore opposing consious factions because that is rediculous.

When we follow in suit with what Jesus speaks. It's blaspheme on the part of the believers who misunderstand the cold calculated decisions made by the roman church at the time of its creation.

Pope francis is implying a greater relationship with mankind and god.
The mediator, Knowingly achieving the same outcome as any other Religion. It pushing the global consiousness of christians into a more moral state rather than physical state.

When we focus on the cross, We are putting our energy into a physical thing. When we focus our energy on an individual. You leave out the greater aspect of life and the universe itself.

There is nothing more beautiful and awe inspiring than the universe in its entirety. Which is God.
Some here believe the universe is a consious enitity able to intereact with individual beings and planets with preference.

I believe however that the univerve manifests life, In order to recollect what is lost. Planets and stars would 100% exist without life.
This would be a fact. Life is the mystery. We wonder * Why? * Why does life need to exist? What even is the universe?

Well the simple answer is if you read the bible, Reguardless of what is written in there is true or not. You are reading memories, You are reading the outcome of information that was transfered to a physical medium hundreds if not thousands of years ago.

The signifigance of even our mundane ability to remeber and convert memories and ideas into physical tools and resources its beyond denying the true existance of life. Which is to write stories and to records them. To preserve them, Beyound the death of our planet and our star. For the possiblity of infinity for as long as humanity can contain the information.

We have sent space probs, detailing our species and other species on earth, Our planets name and co-ordinates.
We have done these and so much more and continue to do so.
So ask yourself. Is death really the final destination we want? Why would we continue to reincarnate if reincarnation and spirits are real?

Why? Even if we suffer, why should we suffer?
Well the answer is, A good story just wouldn't be a good story without some bloodshed.
Overall we should strive for peace, But we all know we cannot change the passed. And i certainly had no part in the abominations that occured in the distant and recent passed.

What can we do to break the cycle of endless destruction among ourselves? But to put aside the imagery of the mutilated messiah. If a messiah will come he will come. And regardless of religion or creed. It will be done through morality. And not religious stigma. If there is ever an Elect it will be that.

Of course there are Skeptics who believe nothing paranormal will happen.

But i believe that aliens had influence on our planet. And effected religions of summaria and older. The book of Enki should of been in the bible. It was just as rediculous as the bible story in its deception. But holds its own unique portion of truth. 6000BC is not old enough when the human species Mitchondiral DNA is 200,000 years old.

The Eve study




The older we go in history, the weirder all of these myths get.



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 03:23 AM
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a reply to: BO XIAN

Dear BO XIAN,

I suppose I should be correcting some of the false statements in the thread but, to be honest, I'm selfishly enjoying our conversation and I'd like to continue it.

I'm going to try to be even more brief this time in an attempt to quickly discover where we might have real differences and not just different views of the same thing. Please don't take it as harshness, an attack, or any criticism.

The term "Catholic Church" was first used in the early 100s.

God preserved His Word in a very odd way. It wasn't until about 250 that most Christians accepted what we now have, and not until the late 300s when the Canon was declared officially. Until then, many additions and deletions were being suggested and accepted by some. We still have to deal with Martin Luther who took out several Old testament books and wanted to take out Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelations. This tells me that Christians still don't agree on what is His Word.
-------------------------------------------------
I don't know about mangling the translation. Scholars are now (and have been for some time) going back to Greek and Aramaic documents for their starting point. Sure, there will always be some disagreements with any particular translation choice, but "Mangled?" I think scholarship is too well developed for that and our current translations are as good as they will be for the foreseeable future.
-------------------------------------------------
Mangles the application? Maybe, but what does that mean? Do you believe the Catholic Church is Satanic? Do you think it has exceeded it's authority? Do you think it's decisions were wrong? That's a large spectrum to cover.
-------------------------------------------------
I agree that the Holy Spirit is a good and faithful guide to God's Word. That may be one of it's main jobs. So what do we say when people come up with all sorts of strange definitions for Christianity? It's already apparent that many people after Christ did not have the same "Bible" as others, how could they have had Biblical knowledge and understanding? And how many Christians are practiced at listening to the Spirit. How many of those who believe they hear the Spirit of God are listening either to evil spirits, or their own pre-conceived notions?

Forgive me for being pessimistic, but I don't see turning everybody loose with a copy of the Bible (and which version?) and saying, "Read this, study it, and you'll be good." It may be just my taste, by a prefer something a little more defined. If everybody has a slightly different version of Christianity, all equal, then there is no way of telling what Christianity is (or isn't). If someone says that Christianity tells people to cannibalize others who are expected to die within the next few hours (Eat My Body, Drink My Blood"), what authority is there for calling that a wrong interpretation.
----------------------------------------------------
Nobody likes bloated bureacracy. I suspect you wouldn't approve if it wasn't bloated. Besides Biblical records of at least a local bureaucracy in the small, town churches. What do you do with over a billion believers? We've already seen what happens when people decide what Christianity is on their own. You'd need a bureaucracy simply to maintain the definition of Christianity. If the Church wanted to do anything else at all for it's members it would have to have a hierarchy.
---------------------------------------
Aliens are evil? Assuming they are, how does that affect my "running the race," or winning "the crown of glory?" I don't expect to ever see one, and if I did I'd get away from it for fear each of us would contaminate the other.

I think we agree on principles, but have little differences in interpretation and emphasis which can be ironed out or set aside.

With respect,
Charles1952





3.1 A bloated bureaucracy is more likely to be like the pharisees than a good gatekeeper on authentic Holy Spirit led orthodoxy, imho.

4. Guy Malone has demonstrated with more than 400 cases that Christian spiritual warfare stops "ET" fallen angel abductions--sometimes when they've followed family bloodlines down for generations.

His YOU TUBE VIDEOS--including some from his panel of top flight scholars about the issues:

www.youtube.com... .1.11.youtube.U-QKbRBOIa8



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 09:01 AM
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originally posted by: charles1952
a reply to: BO XIAN

Dear BO XIAN,

I suppose I should be correcting some of the false statements in the thread but, to be honest, I'm selfishly enjoying our conversation and I'd like to continue it.


Likewise. Thx Thx and for your kind words.



I'm going to try to be even more brief this time in an attempt to quickly discover where we might have real differences and not just different views of the same thing. Please don't take it as harshness, an attack, or any criticism.


Given your good spirit and attitude, am not likely to have such a feeling. Likewise on my part in reverse.



The term "Catholic Church" was first used in the early 100s.


Ahhhhh . . . . UNIVERSAL, in a very generic, non-organizational use, is one thing . . . Which is one reason I prefer to use "Roman Catholic" to distinguish . . . though I realize that has flaws on the fringes of reality, too. LOL.

The RCC 'good ole boy's club' bureaucratic Pharisaical, POLITICAL edifice is quite something else.

I doubt we can bridge the stark difference in perspective on the origins score.

That's sad to me but I don't see it as preventing fellowship in The Lord's Love, Blood, Grace and Spirit. All who seek God's Face and to put Father, Son, Spirit first in their lives as they earnestly endeavor to walk out His Word and leading; are my brothers and sisters, imho.

The biggest problem is the Scripture about building "The Church" on Peter the pebble or on the type of faith Peter had in The Christ. I've been backwards and forwards over the root word meanings & the logic related thereto with dozens of RC's and in my own private study. I don't see that as something we can bridge--compromise meaningfully over, sadly.



God preserved His Word in a very odd way. It wasn't until about 250 that most Christians accepted what we now have, and not until the late 300s when the Canon was declared officially. Until then, many additions and deletions were being suggested and accepted by some. We still have to deal with Martin Luther who took out several Old testament books and wanted to take out Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelations. This tells me that Christians still don't agree on what is His Word.


That's a somewhat reasonable perspective, imho. LOL.

It's not an issue I feel a need to be prissy about or overly precise about. I'm personally an "inerrancy in the original autographs" sort of person. But it's not an issue I feel a compulsion to rant about nor to be exclusionistic about.

There's a thread hereon about whether the Book of Enoch belonged in the Canon or not. I mostly don't think it does. I believe it has some Biblical and God anointed truth in it but I don't believe it is quite as GOD BREATHED by His Spirit as the Canon is.

Basically, I still trust that through all the political, scholarly and other events related to the Canon--God had--ESSENTIALLY--HIS WAY on what He felt belonged in THE CANON. I guess that's where I put my faith and confidence and I don't lose sleep over details around the fringes.

-------------------------------------------------



I don't know about mangling the translation. Scholars are now (and have been for some time) going back to Greek and Aramaic documents for their starting point. Sure, there will always be some disagreements with any particular translation choice, but "Mangled?" I think scholarship is too well developed for that and our current translations are as good as they will be for the foreseeable future.


I think it depends on the issue and perspective we are taking regarding what part of the text.

I have a copy of the RCC Catechism from a dear RCC Bro on

www.freerepublic.com...

I've never made it through the weighty tome. LOL.

But frankly, it's a mess. And MY READING of the RCC stances on various Scriptures is also, TO ME, essentially, a mess. From my perspective, the RCC hierarchy makes a declaration--somewhat in consultation with the scholars--but seemingly more in consideration of political realities.

And, as likely as not--sometimes in different documents at different times and places and sometimes in the same document--the political hierarchy makes a pronouncement that very obfuscatingly and skillfully stands on BOTH SIDES of the critical issues. That's quite a skillful and useful political custom! LOL.

The stuff about Mary "Full of Grace" . . . and the elaborate extrapolations from that are absolutely mind-bogglingly off the wall, to me.

Then we get into the whole edifice of fossilized clap trap built up about "Mary, Queen of Heaven" that I am utterly convinced is demonic fostered idolatry, of some of the worst sort. Sadly, I don't see how to bridge that, either.

I don't have a list of such "extrapolations from the text" but there are more than a handful. And I find each one of them an absolutely INCREDIBLE grope, reach, in order to EFFECT A POLITICALLY USEFUL STANCE on the part of the RCC edifice.

I don't see the extrapolations and rationalizations having much at all to do with the Biblical text . . . other than to be a kind of high dive spring board from which to launch the political justifications for the political edifice.



-------------------------------------------------
Mangles the application? Maybe, but what does that mean? Do you believe the Catholic Church is Satanic? Do you think it has exceeded it's authority? Do you think it's decisions were wrong? That's a large spectrum to cover.


Sigh. Sadly, Yes, I've reluctantly come to the conviction that major chunks, if not the bulk of the hierarchy and the operations of the RCC are, indeed, satanic.

I've reluctantly come to that conclusion largely because of the ET/fallen angel pronouncements increasingly made by the hierarchy and most lately by Pope Frances.

Until then, I kind of shoved out of my consciousness and attention the other research and evidence toward that conclusion.

I think that Cris Putnam and Tom Horn get a bit shrill at times but I think their two massive 600 page SUMMARIES of a DVD full of thousands of documents are largely correct, accurate, true. Sadly.

I didn't want to believe that. I have many precious dear RCC brothers and sisters that I love dearly. I believe that THEY are earnest in seeking God and trying to put Him first in their lives. It grieves me to my bone marrow to see them still so supportive of such a corrupt edifice so saturated with . . . frankly . . . evil.

Now, to be sure, I see a lot of Protestant denominations similarly. As I've noted, I think ALMOST ANY congregation older than 18 months has already started going off the rails, missing the mark, . . . the rot has already started to set in.

Some regularly check themselves, seek God's face and earnestly try and clean out the collecting garbage--with various levels of success. Most don't.

I think a huge problem is putting ANY FAITH AND CONFIDENCE IN MAN WHATSOEVER--AND MOST PARTICULARLY in *ANY* MAN CONSTRUCTED ORGANIZATIONS.

I think the devilish pride, !!!CONTROL!!! freak stuff; building one's own kingdom stuff begins immediately to rear their ugly heads in groups and particularly in organized formal groups.

I think that's why it's ESSENTIAL to daily, in every meeting, INSURE that Holy Spirit is THE ONE IN CHARGE of the meeting, the group, ...



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 10:06 AM
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a reply to: charles1952

WOW . . . 30 min or more to get back here. Could have just cold shut-off and rebooted but wanted to try and save what I'd typed to that point. LOL. To wit:

CONTINUED response to Dear Brother Charles (those pesky character limits. LOL),


originally posted by: charles1952
a reply to: BO XIAN
. . .

Mangles the application? Maybe, but what does that mean? Do you believe the Catholic Church is Satanic? Do you think it has exceeded it's authority? Do you think it's decisions were wrong? That's a large spectrum to cover.
-------------------------------------------------


I think that's why it's ESSENTIAL to daily, in every meeting, INSURE that Holy Spirit is THE ONE IN CHARGE of the meeting, the group, situation, etc.

And, Frankly, I don't currently know of ANY group or congregation near me, who does that persistently, faithfully. Some claim they do. But they don't. Well, there might be one small home group, that I'm aware of, that does so fairly successfully, MOST of the time.

I've thought of that issue a long time and haven't come up with a great fool-proof solution that is salable. The pride and control needs of the leadership wins out over the need to do such things. So, there's no sale. Sadly.

I DO BELIEVE that in the coming END TIMES traumas that God Himself will fix the problem.

Essentially, organized structures will be shredded. That is--those with any authentic Christians left in them at all.

Either the organized structures will be shredded to oblivion or the authentic believers will be isolated out and the structures will become increasingly overt components of the Anti-Christ's machine and one world religion.

The authentic believers separated out will be led moment by moment by Holy Spirit in historically uncommon ways . . . and protected by Heavenly Angels . . . and probably moved about from time to time. If a geographic area is to be protected supernaturally from AC's forces--wonderful--and that is certainly possible. But that's another long winded issue. LOL.

I just don't see authentic Christians enduring in human organized structures through this period. I believe that clusters of believers will be led and managed directly by Holy Spirit in unprecedented ways. They will be combined and separated at Holy Spirit's operative directives and doings on a day by day basis.

Yes, I believe that the RCC grossly exceeded its authority.
Yes, I believe that many of the RCC's most critical decisions were wholesale wrong. Sadly.

So are a LOT of other denominational pontifications, pronouncements, rulings, customs etc. It's just that the older an organization is, the more fossilized and encrusted with junk it tends to become.

Now to another continuing post to get to the next part of your kind post. LOL.

to be continued.



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 10:12 AM
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a reply to: BO XIAN


And, Frankly, I don't currently know of ANY group or congregation near me, who does that persistently, faithfully. Some claim they do. But they don't. Well, there might be one small home group, that I'm aware of, that does so fairly successfully, MOST of the time.


It's funny how often the "holy spirit" might be reinterpreted to mean "the spirit of acquiescence".



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 10:38 AM
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a reply to: charles1952



I agree that the Holy Spirit is a good and faithful guide to God's Word. That may be one of it's main jobs.



INDEED.




So what do we say when people come up with all sorts of strange definitions for Christianity?


I'm not as OBCOM (Obsessive Compulsive) as I used to be about such things.

God has declared that those who earnestly, persistently, faithfully SEEK HIM, SHALL FIND HIM. HE is able to FINISH THE GOOD WORK HE BEGINS IN PEOPLE.

It REALLY IS
HIS doing.

Mostly, we just get in His way.

Particularly when we PRESUME to interject ourselves between him and someone else AS THOUGH WE KNOW BEST how to mature them in Christ, protect them, shepherd them etc. etc. etc.

YES, there are to be Christian leaders . . .

WHO ARE ORDERED OF GOD

NOT

TO "LORD IT OVER" others--particularly HIS sheep 'under' them.


And the RCC certainly does NOT have a monopoly on that problem.

I think ecclesiastical !!!CONTROL!!! FREAK stuff has mangled more sheep and kept more potential sheep out of The Kingdom than a lot of other demonic stuff.

AT OUR MOST HUMBLE AND SPIRIT LED BEST

--we still see through the glass darkly.
--we still get it wrong.
--we still lead others amiss with the best of intentions, or not.

--we still MUST NOT risk "playing God" in their lives. They have a God and HE IS EXCEEDINGLY ABLE AND WILLING TO BE GOD IN THEIR LIVES quite independent of our dinking around in the picture . . . even WITH the best of intentions.

CHRIST DIED . . .

--not for another Pharisaical edifice to be established. He was quite stern and hostile to the one 2,000 years ago.

--NOT to elevate another class and group of arrogant professional "RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD MANAGERS."

--NOT to complicate, professionalize, ritualize, structuralize, fossilize, sterilize, deaden any individual's walk with God nor the process of getting to God and walking with God.

--NOT to encourage others to inject themselves between individuals and God . . .

. . .

BUT TO HOOK FOLKS UP TO THE FATHER 1:1 AND ENHANCE EACH INDIVIDUAL'S WALK WITH THE FATHER.

THE FATHER is very jealous over HIS walk with each individual.

And, The Lord in The Song of Solomon is NOT interested in having some 3rd choreographer around trying to manipulate and orchestrate things in the wedding bed in the wedding chamber. God IS a BIG GUY. He CAN AND WILL manage things very well on HIS own, thank you very much! LOL.

Yes, there is a place for groups and even leadership . . . SERVANT LEADERSHIP. And not in name only. Not in periodic media shows of washing feet. But authentic servant leadership.

I think Frances does better at being authentic in a lot of that stuff than maybe the last 100 Popes combined. LOL.

But, imho, he goes off the rails when he insists that the edifice is above Father's 1:1 relationship with individuals.



It's already apparent that many people after Christ did not have the same "Bible" as others, how could they have had Biblical knowledge and understanding?


I'm reminded of the story of a wise Jewish father exhorting a son--left behind or some such as the dad was shipping off to the concentration death camps . . . the lad was quite young. And the father just exhorted him to remember the Hebrew alphabet . . . essentially to pray the alphabet as that was the extent of the instruction the young lad had received due to his age.

God can manage that situation well enough.

Did you ever read SAMUEL MORRIS, THE MARCH OF FAITH?

www.amazon.com...=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1404919515&sr=1-2&keywords=SAMUEL+MORRIS+THE+MA RCH+OF+FAITH

His Christian walk began as follows.

He was a chief's son in darkest Africa--Liberia. And the custom in that area . . . rife with inter-tribal warfare, was to take the chief's son of the losing tribe and torture him until suitable ransom was paid.

Samuel was the son of the chief of the tribe that tended to lose most often. He was in the middle of the night tied to a stake in a small clearing. He had been tortured and was hanging to the pole tied by his hands and barely alive.

He hears a voice tell him to get up and run. He's convinced he's hallucinating from his desperate tortured physical condition. He can barely breathe or exist, much less find the strength to get up and run. Besides, he's tied to the pole.

A 2nd time, he hears the voice tell him to GET UP AND RUN. He continues to feel he's hallucinating the voice.

The 3rd time, the voice declares more authoritatively and sternly:

I SAID GET UP AND RUN!

And suddenly, he finds his bonds are loosed and he has strength to get up and run.

He discovers in the jungle near the clearing that there is a mysterious light with the voice. The light and the voice lead him for 2 weeks to food and water and eventually to a walled mission compound.

The Voice and light leave him with the exhortation: IN THERE, YOU WILL LEARN OF ME.

He died at a young age. But he traveled Europe and America and attended seminary in the USA. Huge auditoriums would be filled with people waiting to hear him speak. He'd walk unannounced in some side or back door. And the minute his feet crossed the threshold, masses of people would run screaming and repenting to the front.

GOD CAN MANAGE lots of things without our pontifications, customs and rituals.

I'm convinced, it's by far, HIS PREFERENCE.



And how many Christians are practiced at listening to the Spirit.


Pitifully few.

And we CAN at times offer suggestions and encouragements and even stern exhortations. But they must be open-handed, humble offerings. NOT LORDING IT OVER.



How many of those who believe they hear the Spirit of God are listening either to evil spirits, or their own pre-conceived notions?


Lots of US; Lots of them.

Again . . . Holy Spirit is well able to FINISH WHAT HE STARTED with each individual--regardless of everything else; regardless of anything else; regardless of anyone else; regardless of everyone else.

Actually, I think most churches . . . including the best Pentecostal one I know of in the area or any other area . . .

tend to do far more mangling people INTO listening to demonic forces than freeing them up from them.

Wellll that may be a bit of hyperbole.

But they certainly complicate and contaminate individuals' walks with God AT LEAST AS MUCH AS they help them. Sadly.

Running out of characters again.

edit on 9/7/2014 by BO XIAN because: tags



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 11:11 AM
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CONTINUED BoX blather responding to Dear Bro Charles . . .

a reply to: charles1952



Forgive me for being pessimistic, but I don't see turning everybody loose with a copy of the Bible (and which version?) and saying, "Read this, study it, and you'll be good."


Certainly there are challenges and hazards with only that.

Are THOSE challenges and hazards greater than the challenges and hazards of an ecclesiastical elite vainly and arrogantly trying to manage (typically quite coercively) the sheep's relationships with God?

NOT BY A LONG SHOT. In my 60+ years of experience and observations across 3 continents and every flavor of group . . . The opposite is much more the case.

BTW, you may be unaware that I was in close fellowship with a Mary Knoll RCC sister at our Univ in China.



It may be just my taste, by a prefer something a little more defined. If everybody has a slightly different version of Christianity, all equal, then there is no way of telling what Christianity is (or isn't).


Wellllllllll, Dear Bro . . . I used to be a very prissy, straight-laced, fairly judgmental, tending toward authoritarian etc. Christian busy-body . . . vigorously and busily and energetically trying to batter everyone within reach into my notions of what it meant to be a "Good Christian."

It never worked out well for the other folks.
It never worked out well for me.
It never worked out well for The Kingdom.

Oh, sure. God was faithful to WORK ALL THINGS TOGETHER FOR GOOD for those who truly loved Him.

But there was a high cost of collateral damage that was quite unnecessary, on all sides.

I wouldn't claim that all expressions--particularly individual expressions--of Christianity were "STRICTLY LEGAL."

I would, however, claim that all authentic expressions of individual Christianity were IN THE FATHER'S VERY BIG AND CAPABLE HANDS.

And we'd best leave them there and stop trying to do HIS job, mucking things up far worse than remotely necessary . . . ON AVERAGE.

Being led of Holy Spirit in such matters is just so totally critical.

And that is NOT the same as following organizational policies, customs, interpretations, extrapolations etc. etc. etc. yada yada yada.



If someone says that Christianity tells people to cannibalize others who are expected to die within the next few hours (Eat My Body, Drink My Blood"), what authority is there for calling that a wrong interpretation.


I know that this will be heretical to some of my fellow Pentecostals . . . tough tacos.

Christ said . . . LOVE GOD WHOLLY. LOVE OTHERS AS SELF. DO UNTO OTHERS . . . .

One wise sage (forget who) said--LOVE GOD AND DO WHAT YOU WANT.

My 'heretical' assertion:

imho, an individual Christian can take the Lord's Supper elements

with EITHER perspective . . . in a good-hearted SEEKING GOD'S FACE attitude . . .

And God will bless them and consider the ordinance accomplished as unto His Glory.

Let me see if anything was left in your post to respond to . . . .



Nobody likes bloated bureacracy. I suspect you wouldn't approve if it wasn't bloated. Besides Biblical records of at least a local bureaucracy in the small, town churches. What do you do with over a billion believers?



Keep putting them up on God's altar.

Functionally, turn them over to the folks MOST HUMBLE AND MOST FOLLOWING GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT in the local congregation.

They need broken up into small home groups in prep for the looming END TIMES Anti-Christ traumas anyway.

Yeah, there's not enough truly humble, truly Spirit-led leaders to go around. Find the ones closest to that and trust them to God. HE IS ABLE. And WHEN things are truly trusted to HIM, HE ALWAYS STEPS UP TO THE PLATE AND HITS A HOME RUN. . . . though in His time and in His ways.

It'd be AT LEAST AS GOOD as letting them continue to be mangled by a huge fossilized edifice quite likely mostly under satan's control anyway.



We've already seen what happens when people decide what Christianity is on their own. You'd need a bureaucracy simply to maintain the definition of Christianity. If the Church wanted to do anything else at all for it's members it would have to have a hierarchy.


Oh, I don't know. The New Testament Christians in Acts did pretty well on their own--even shared all things in common well--evidently until some got uppity and started exercising political and managerial authoritarian !!!CONTROL!!!

THE FACT IS, NO ORGANIZED EXPRESSION OF CHRISTIANITY HAS MANAGED THE SHEEP NOR THE CAUSE REMOTELY AS WELL AS GOD WOULD HAVE PREFERRED.

AND MOST HAVE DONE HORRIBLY IN HIS NAME.

Most of those hostile to Christianity AND TO GOD . . . . on ATS . . . are collateral damage foisted on the world by ORGANIZED STRUCTURES doing abominable things in God's name--sometimes perversely with premeditation and aforethought and many times with good but misguided intentions.

I will concede that organized Christianity . . . e.g. Operation Blessing and Samaritan's Purse etc. have done wonderful things for the spread of Bibles and The Gospel and the poor . . . hospitals, schools, water wells . . . around the world.

Even some pretty awful Christian organizations have still managed to spread Bibles around the world to the benefit of The Gospel and of individuals.

But the collateral damage to individuals and to The Body of Christ has been massive and massively horrible.

Suffering and God's Spirit will clean a lot of that up in coming traumas . . . but at incredible cost.

Organized Christian groups OUGHT to have been practicing ideal models of Christianity.

Instead,

I met John Wimber face to face in Taipei. Wonderful humble man.

With typical God's humor, He took John home to be with HIM via a fall in the shower. LOL.

EVERYONE GETS TO PLAY by John & Christy Wimber

www.amazon.com...=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1404921308&sr=1-4&keywords=John+Wimber

= = =

THE WAY IN IS THE WAY ON By Christy Wimber and Jack Hayford (also a very humble man)

www.amazon.com...=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1404921308&sr=1-4&keywords=John+Wimber

= = =

THE WAY IT WAS by Carol Wimber

www.amazon.com...=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1404921308&sr=1-6&keywords=John+Wimber

= = =

POWER POINTS: YOUR ACTION PLAN TO: HEAR GOD'S VOICE; BELIEVE GOD'S WORD; SEEK THE FATHER; SUBMIT TO CHRIST; TAKE UP THE CROSS; DEPEND ON THE HOLY SPIRIT; FULFILL THE GREAT COMMISSION

www.amazon.com...=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1404921308&sr=1-7&keywords=John+Wimber

= = =

Anyway--John essentially began the Vineyard type Charismatic churches. They kept spawning new congregations and eventually formed a denomination legally.

John didn't like the results and broke them all apart again . . . IIRC, in large part due to the bureaucracy, hierarchy sorts of junk I've referred to.

They may have decided on that route after his death considering his values and exhortations. I don't remember exactly the timing or sequence.


---------------------------------------
Aliens are evil? Assuming they are, how does that affect my "running the race," or winning "the crown of glory?" I don't expect to ever see one, and if I did I'd get away from it for fear each of us would contaminate the other.



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 11:28 AM
link   
a reply to: charles1952

Organized Christian groups OUGHT to have been practicing ideal models of Christianity.

Instead,

I met John Wimber face to face in Taipei. Wonderful humble man.

With typical God's humor, He took John home to be with HIM via a fall in the shower. LOL.

EVERYONE GETS TO PLAY by John & Christy Wimber

www.amazon.com...=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1404921308&sr=1-4&keywords=John+Wimber

= = =

THE WAY IN IS THE WAY ON By Christy Wimber and Jack Hayford (also a very humble man)

www.amazon.com...=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1404921308&sr=1-4&keywords=John+Wimber

= = =

THE WAY IT WAS by Carol Wimber

www.amazon.com...=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1404921308&sr=1-6&keywords=John+Wimber

= = =

POWER POINTS: YOUR ACTION PLAN TO: HEAR GOD'S VOICE; BELIEVE GOD'S WORD; SEEK THE FATHER; SUBMIT TO CHRIST; TAKE UP THE CROSS; DEPEND ON THE HOLY SPIRIT; FULFILL THE GREAT COMMISSION

www.amazon.com...=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1404921308&sr=1-7&keywords=John+Wimber

= = =

Anyway--John essentially began the Vineyard type Charismatic churches. They kept spawning new congregations and eventually formed a denomination legally.

John didn't like the results and broke them all apart again . . . IIRC, in large part due to the bureaucracy, hierarchy sorts of junk I've referred to.

They may have decided on that route after his death considering his values and exhortations. I don't remember exactly the timing or sequence.

May be out of characters again

---------------------------------------
Aliens are evil? Assuming they are, how does that affect my "running the race," or winning "the crown of glory?" I don't expect to ever see one, and if I did I'd get away from it for fear each of us would contaminate the other.



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 12:07 PM
link   
a reply to: charles1952

Sigh. Lost that post due to errant button bump. Sigh.

Trying again:



Aliens are evil? Assuming they are, how does that affect my "running the race," or winning "the crown of glory?" I don't expect to ever see one, and if I did I'd get away from it for fear each of us would contaminate the other.


1. Given my study since 1962, I no longer doubt that all the critters mentioned in the literature at all . . . are evil . . . and, as Guy Malone's top level scholarly panel of researchers asserted . . . are fallen angels.

2. I believe one of 2 scenarios will most likely the the case:

2.1 A massive global display of 'mother ships' will herald "We are your space brothers who have come in peace to help save you and the planet from your destroying yourselves and the planet with overpopulation, war, pollution etc."

or

2.2 A massive global display of UFO's with one or more "races" playing the role of attackers out to destroy earth and eat mankind and other 'races' playing the role of defenders and protectors of mankind and the planet. A kind of good-cop/bad-cop manipulation and deception.

3.0 EITHER scenario will REQUIRE ALL COUNTRIES AND PEOPLE GROUPS TO JOIN IN A ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT OVERTLY

AND

3.1 to JOIN IN A ONE WORLD RELIGION OVERTLY.

3.2 The critters will use their exotic tech and demonic forces to 'DEMONSTRATE' that they are who they claim to be and that they have all the answers . . . as well as to enforce their edicts.

4.0 The globalist oligarchy and the Vatican will herald such forces and confess being in cooperation with them for decades.

5.0 The Anti-Christ will initially "make war with peace" as the Bible describes.

5.1 Initially, Pentecostal and Evangelical and other authentic Christians will be characterized as ignorant and misguided. They will be captured and taken to camps "for re-education--then all will be well." Most will probably be exterminated in the camps out of sight and out of mind of the beleagured rest of the world.

5.1.1 God will still be supernaturally protecting groups of authentic Christians here and there but there's not much solid info we can guess about on that score.

5.2 Gradually, he will be come more stern and authoritarian. Eventually, probably at the 3.5 year mark of the Great Tribulation, he will demand to be worshiped as God Almighty.

6.0 Those refusing to join the one world religion will at first be ridiculed and mocked as ignorant and behind the times. Eventually, they will be killed out-right and without recourse or fanfare.

6.1 Those who think they can just 'go along to get alone' without selling out to the oligarchy and one world religion will be gravely surprised to find out very much otherwise.

Enough for now. Better take a phone call.

Thanks for the honor of the dialogue.

IT IS CERTAINLY TRULY SMACK IN THE MIDDLE OF THE OP! LOL.

GUY MALONE’S YOUTUBE LIST OF VIDS:


www.youtube.com... 0...1ac.1.11.youtube.pul-p6LCH2I



edit on 9/7/2014 by BO XIAN because: ADDED



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 12:27 PM
link   

originally posted by: AfterInfinity

It's funny how often the "holy spirit" might be reinterpreted to mean "the spirit of acquiescence".


Too true.

Thankfully, the real IS REAL.

But that "still small voice" is easily confused with one's own mental noise and other far less than admirable sources.

It takes . . . faithful listening and practice . . . to learn to distinguish. And I'm still practicing sorting that out at 60+

Thankfully, WHEN the priority is high, Holy Spirit is well able to 'speak loudly.'

Sometimes even 'audibly.'



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 01:56 PM
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a reply to: Wifibrains

I don't know what is worse....people wanting too worship a two thousand year old trickster with an attitude and delusions of grandeur or and old child molesting pope with a staff of child abusers on hand.

Not only do i despise main stream religion but I think those who believe are beneath the rest of humanity who actually have common sense and do not believe such ridiculous stories.

Too me their is NO difference between the bible and Goldilocks and the three bears in terms of truth and accuracy!


edit on 9-7-2014 by projectbane because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 03:25 PM
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a reply to: projectbane

Hmmmmmmm . . .

Thankfully, in the words of the OP . . . my 1:1 RELATIONSHIP with God has repeatedly proven to me that

GOD IS VERY ABLE AND VERY FAITHFUL TO CONFIRM HIS WORD AND HIS CHARACTER. He has done so with me over and over and over and over for more than 60+ years.

And, your assertions here:



Not only do i despise main stream religion but I think those who believe are beneath the rest of humanity who actually have common sense and do not believe such ridiculous stories.


are absurdly inaccurate, false, wrong, nonsensical, terminally uninformed, and probably poorly thought-out.

Sir Isaac Newton had one of the most brilliant minds of recorded history. He considered his Biblical studies to be more important than his scientific studies. He may well have spent more time on them. He also felt that there were codes in the Bible--proven right in our computer age.

There have been a surprising number of very brilliant atheists full of common sense, as well, who set out to PROVE the Bible was essentially equal to Goldilocks. They ended up fierce believers in the Bible's validity, authenticity and accuracy after extensive and thorough very scholarly research.

Among them:

Aleksandr Tsarevich Solzhenitsyn, another, to my surprise.

Chai Ling, Chinese student leader of the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989.

John Warwick Montgomery,

George R. Price Geneticist

Larry Darby Was a holocaust denier and a member of American Atheists

Allan Sandage A very productive astronomer

Malcolm Muggeridge

Antony Flew 'based on the evidence.'

. . .

C.S. Lewis

His MERE CHRISTIANITY and THE PROBLEM OF PAIN are well worth considering but not exactly light reading for those with reading comprehension problems.

Josh McDowell was another.

MORE THAN A CARPENTER is a simplified very brief summary from his research.

www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1404936039&sr=1-1&keywords=josh+mcdowell+more+tha n+a+carpenter

His NEW EVIDENCE THAT DEMANDS A VERDICT is his longer summary:

www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1404936163&sr=1-1&keywords=new+evidence+that+dema nds+a+verdict

And, his co-written

77 FAQs About God and the Bible: Your Toughest Questions Answered (The McDowell Apologetics Library)

www.amazon.com...=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1404936039&sr=1-7&keywords=josh+mcdowell+more+than +a+carpenter

is pretty decent, too.



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 03:55 PM
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a reply to: charles1952

I have no real quibble with the Catholic Church. My dearest friend is a very devout Catholic. The only quibble I would have with any notion here is if the Pope is indeed trying to say that you cannot reach a personal relationship with God yourself, but that you need a priest (here the implication would be a Catholic one) to stand between you and Christ and be that intercessor for all time or you will never achieve that relationship or maintain it. That is the implication I am drawing, and I would find it odd that someone would ever teach such a thing.

Although, if you are someone trying to A.) increase attendance at your churches and B.) increase the power of your priests, then it's maybe not so off because you would put them in the position of becoming a permanent fixture in the lives of everyone who is serious about salvation.

I would hope that is not the Pope's ulterior motive here.



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 04:00 PM
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a reply to: charles1952

There's another bit of . . . evidence . . . to ponder related directly to the OP issue of personal relationship vs organization/structure/bureaucracy.

There's an organization in Albuquerque that has been producing and distributing "Proclaimer" solar and wind-up MP3 players to tribal groups without Scriptures for more than a decade, IIRC.

They realized a further number of years ago that printing Bibles--even for tribal groups which had a written language--did not help when the people were illiterate. After prayer and fasting as a whole staff, God showed them a better way.

They find out what the "heart language" is of a tribal group. They then translate the Bible into that heart language.

Then they research WHO IS THE MAN OF PEACE in this area? Who is most noted as a man of peace?

Then they go to that man with the MP3 player and they work out an agreement wherein he agrees to play 30 minutes worth of Scripture per week for all who care to listen . . . until the whole Bible has been heard.

THAT'S ALL. THAT'S IT.

There's no structure. There's no bureaucracy. There's no exhortations about how to start a church. That's it.

Time after time, they go back to check and see what's happened and they find flourishing churches which are quite similar to the churches and their operations described in Acts.

When they talk about how such came to be, the tribal people's declare that they just listened and applied what they heard AND GOD MET THEM ACCORDINGLY . . . very often with miracles following.

I love it.

That is SUUUUUCHHH A "GOD THING."

No forcing any Western ways on anyone. Just letting God be God in hooking up with those interested in His Peace, in a RELATIONSHIP with Him.

No bureaucracy. No "professional Pharisees" between individuals and God.

Here's the organization in Albuquerque.

www.faithcomesbyhearing.com...

edit on 9/7/2014 by BO XIAN because: left out



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