The pope condemns personal relationship with Christ

Let's see Pope's and priest vs jesus

"Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" [Matthew 7:21]

3rd century painting in catacomb of Jesus


en.wikipedia.org...:Good_shepherd_02b_close.jpg

Acts 10:26

When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. 26But Peter raised him up, saying, "Stand up; I too am just a man." 27As he talked with him, he entered and found many people assembled.…

Rev 19.10

10 Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he *said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

Luke 4

5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 If you worship me, it will all be yours.”

8 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’[c]”

matthew 4.9

Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; 9.and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me." 10.Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'"…

Mark 10.18

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.

Some of you may be familiar with the Movie "Stigmata"....based on the very act of the chruch calling the Gospel of Thomas heresy.

One favorite...
3) Jesus said: If those who lead you say unto you: Behold, the Kingdom is in heaven, then the birds of the heaven will be before you. If they say unto you: It is in the sea, then the fish will be before you. But the Kingdom is within you, and it is outside of you. When you know yourselves, then shall you be known, and you shall know that you are the sons of the living Father. But if ye do not know yourselves, then you are in poverty, and you are poverty.

I am not a religious person at all , but I follow findings and discoveries.
It is said that the church banned the Gospels of Thomas because they would lead followers to think for themselves and have a solitary relationship with God himself and they wouldn't need the church any longer and other things found within could be the beginning of the fall of the catholic church.

Regardless , it's interesting on many levels.

Google it for yourself and you'll see why they banned certain findings and used others.
Also , this hasn't been confirmed as authentic but has been studied.
Interesting regardless !

a reply to: masqua

When you are among others of the same faith, there's always the possibility of good discussion, but when you see yourself as a promotor of that faith among strangers of varying faiths, that's another level altogether and a good education might be a sensible requirement.

Jesus chose his disciples from uneducated fishermen and manual laborers, he told them to go and tell people about his love for them about his father and that there is hope and good coming for those who will follow a few simple reasonable rules which are already built into our consciousness.

Matthew 18:2-4New International Version (NIV)

2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

a reply to: masqua


Interesting book and learned so much about the church, includes the beginning of mob run vatican banking. People who choose to call this travesty their shepherd today, know what they are doing, it is all out there the wolf has no sheeps clothing any more if it ever did. These are conscious choices, do they want to go without beautiful cathedrals and trappings of gold and go kneel in a grass field or even a slum apartment.

In God's Name
Book by David Yallop
In God's Name: An Investigation into the Murder of Pope John Paul I is a book by David A. Yallop about Pope John Paul I death. It was published in 1984 by Bantam Books. Wikipedia

free PDF
bookalist.net...

a reply to: randyvs

I love this one

“It is evident that the popes can neither be bound nor unbound by any
earthly power, nor even by that of the apostle [Peter], if he should
return upon the earth; since Constantine the Great has recognized that
the pontiffs held the place of God upon earth, the divinity not being
able to be judged by any living man. We are, then, infallible and
whatever may be our acts, we are not accountable for them but to
ourselves . . .

We [popes] alone have the power to bind and to loose, to absolve Nero
and to condemn him, and Christians cannot, under penalty of
excommunication, execute other judgment than ours, which alone is
infallible . . .

A king need not fear to command massacres, when these will retain his
subjects in obedience, or cause them to submit to the faith of Christ;
and God will reward him in this world, and in eternal life, for these
murders . . . We order you, in the name of religion, to invade his states,
burn his cities, and massacre his people.” [3] [Emphasis added]

Pope Nicholas I, 860
Letter to the
King of Bulgaria

A lot more quotes and letters here too.

www.focusnz.com...

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: EricD

No that is not accurate.

I will thank you to not judge me. You asked. Next time dont ask if you cant accept what people have to say.

Thanks. I didn't judge, I asked for clarification. But your umbrage is noted.

So, to jump back to where we started, did you actually read what the Pope said? You can find it in the link provided earlier in this thread.

If it's more comfortable to make assumptions based on what you think he said, I understand. Let's be perfectly clear though, the OP was specifically about someone's commentary on an article that discussed the Pope's General Audience at St. Peter's Square.

Eric

a reply to: tadaman

The throne of peter is not empty. It has been usurped.

Interestingly they do call it a throne and yet when Jesus was offered the throne to kingship of all this world that is in control of satan, he said NO to that earthy throne. there is no legitimate throne of this world except the ones handed by satan who rules here for a little while longer.

a reply to: EricD

Yes I read it.

I have been following this papacy, the last and the one before. I actually read allot of official papal commentaries. I also have a very close friend which I often talk about Catholic news with. I have always talked to priests and lay people alike about many theological subjects. I was literally surrounded by them for most of my life.

and you did judge. Have the balls to own up to it.

EDIT TO ADD:
I would never be happy with a Marian centrist pope, theology or clergy. I would not agree with any of that revision no matter the puppet spewing it.

here is some historical context in case you are just jumping into a centuries old debate with nothing but a recent speech from our most recent pagan pope inspired by his "great mother" (Pagan Title).

www.eaec.org...

a reply to: Char-Lee

My sentiment exactly. He did not come as a king but as a brother.

The "throne" of peter terminology came about when kingship was originated in Rome´s and the Pope´s crowning of earthly kings.

Constantine had much to do with it. The empire and emperors turned to kingdoms and kings. "pontiff" is a Pagan title for the emperor who was also the leader of the pagan pantheon on earth. Constantine was the first "Pope" not Peter.

Jesus was a poor carpenter. He was not king.

There is only one maximum power according to him and that is God.

All the popes are pagan. The first pope was Constantine. The title of pontiff was a pagan title for leader of the pagan pantheon on earth as intermediary to the Gods as the emperor was considered to be.

Jesus was a Jew and as such had no particular appreciation of false idols. The Pagan world has been tirelessly trying to usurp what they could not address theologically. Its not that Constantine wanted to convert pagans into his universal religion. He already was the head of the pagan world which dominated over the known world for thousands of years, or forever really. He wanted to usurp and change Christians since he had nothing they wanted.

The injustice and outright evil of the pagan world left a legacy of war, slavery, conquest by kingship through "divine right" or outright God kings. Kings were no longer raised up to be leaders of men. Kings were then appointed by BS, the source of which was channeled by an elite few had the sole access to the supposed source and thus the right to dictate what that source wanted on earth. Slave democracy then followed when that well dried up. We still live in a world dictated by access. BS.

Priests are pegs in the man made ladder of access to God. The Pope is the final and most important peg in that ladder to God. That tower....This entire towering organization that is the Catholic church of filth and sin should be made confused and made to scatter. It should fall to earth like the tower of babel.

If you hadnt noticed: the legacy of ownership of spirituality by a few and by proxy their ownership of the men and the spirit of those who hold that spirituality is exactly what our religion brings today. The pagan legacy. The pagan world has usurped the christian movement and Christs message. Evil can not create. It can only corrupt. The Pope telling you that you need him and the church is a clear sign of this.

Christians and Christianity were all but an ideology of equality, natural truth and wisdom. It was a truth of access to the highest spirituality for all men without going through the proprietary systems of religion of old.

You dont need a priest. You dont need a temple. You dont even need a sacred book.

You need your heart and pure honesty. A sense of soul and God. All else is written in the day to day interactions of humanity and in each other.

You dont need an "official God man". You dont need another "official" mortal man or woman to tell you what Gods will is. Ask him yourself. Look for him in yourself and others.

God is not in the golden palaces housing little princes of the church. The living God is one of life and is not in the moldy libraries and stuffy classrooms of an academic elite either.

No.

He is in the change of seasons. In the feeling you get when you see someone you love and have missed. God is in the random acts of goodness and greatness that simply come from within us without explanation or warning.

God is everywhere. The pope has no particular claim to him. This and any dumb ass in Rome will die like you and me.

He doesnt have any special powers or abilities. He is not more holy than you. He is a mortal man as Mary was a mortal woman.

People shouldnt worship people. ANY worship should be to God alone. No one and nothing else here is worthy.

You are your own priest. Jesus was the last and final high priest of the temple. He was the last intermediary. The way is open FOR ALL. There will be no more sacrifice taken by God which was offered by his once "chosen" high priests. Jesus was the final sacrifice.

You dont need mortal men to find God. You need God.

Actions speak louder than words, don't they?

It would be nice if all the acts of kindness, charity, selflessness, gratitude were NOT in the name of Jesus but in the name of humanity itself. Everything is in the name of God and Jesus. How about in the name of what's right? Doesn't anybody see the invisible line in the sand when it comes to religion? The more communal one becomes, the less open they are to another's beliefs. Don't kid yourself.

I find the belief in Christ fine and dandy but also counter productive as well.

A Christian comes up with an idea..."God has shown me a path.", "God has opened my eyes.", God has laid forth a plan."

A Christian wanting to act on that idea..."God give me strength.", "God give me the will to succeed.", "God willing."

A Christian unsuccessful at his plan or mission..."Lord have mercy.", "Forgive me God.", More prayers...

A Christian successful at his plan or mission..."Thank God.", Thank you Jesus.", "I've been blessed.", "God has answered my prayer."

There lies my problem. A person will have a hard time gaining self confidence, self worth and belief in themselves because most or all don't believe they can attain any good idea without God, never find the strength within themselves without God, and never truly succeed at something without Gods help. I empower myself. I create ideas. I create successful outcomes. That's MY plan.

If I were to compromise my beliefs, then I am living in a creators world. I can be as constructive or destructive as I choose. No help from "The Man" whatsoever. Just take a look around. People who wait for answers through prayer get them twice as slow as those seeking answers through good ole fashion get of your ass in the name of don't be lazy.

a reply to: Char-Lee

Jesus chose his disciples from uneducated fishermen and manual laborers,

well some were, some were not and other's it is unknown. we only know for certain according to the gospel's what five did before they started following Jesus.

for example,
we know that Peter, Andrew,James, and John were fishermen. it is also likly that Phillip was a fishermen.
Mathew was a tax collector, also it is thought that he was a Levite and a priest.
Bartholomew/ Nathanael it is thought to come from royal blood line, from Talmai king of Geshur whose daughter, Maacah, one of King David's wive's and mother of Absalom. his name means means Son of Tolmai or Talmai.

the other five their occupation is not known for certain, or at all.

and if you include Pual, he was a tent maker and a Pharisee, or you could say a politician.

a reply to: BO XIAN

Dear BO XIAN,

What an unfortunate thread, very disappointing. The OP leads off with a laughable assertion not supported by published and readily available facts.

EricD, babyloi, FlyersFan, all seek to present the truth of what was said, and counter a few of the overwhelmingly ridiculous comments. The conversation steers to people shouting, "I hate the Pope," "I hate the Church," "I hate organized religion," with various condiments added for spice. Things like anti-Christ, demonic, power-hungry, vastly wealthy, all get thrown in without regard to accuracy or relevance.

But with you, BO XIAN, I see the possibility of a discussion, something that may rescue this thread from blind, reflexive hatred.

The WHOLE PURPOSE of Christ's death on The Cross was to re-establish one on one RELATIONSHIP between all who accepted His Blood as cleansing, covering and Salvation--WITH THE FATHER.

I agree with you, but remember, He also took time out to say "Upon this rock I will build my Church" and “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.” That, at least, provides a plausible argument for the special role Jesus had for Simon Peter.

"And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He said, “Take this and share it among yourselves" Could this be interpreted to mean that His followers should share something resembling the Last Supper among themselves? I think that conjecture is strengthed by his remark:
"And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

It seems to me that "Hideous travesty from Hell," may be a bit much, especially since this "travesty" is accepted by several billion people, in many Christian denominations.

"Global Collectivist?" Maybe, but there seems to be more than one interpretation of his speeches. I'm willing to wait a bit longer.

May God have mercy.

And with that, I agree completely. He knows that I certainly do, and I suspect some others do as well.

With respect,
Charles1952

a reply to: charles1952

Welllll, Dear Bro,

Your response is much more patient and measured than mine, for sure.

I just read the whole of Scripture as pointing to Christ and Christ coming to

RESTORE RELATIONSHIP.

Certainly I don't agree that the Scripture about

"upon this rock" = Peter.

Peter's faith . . . is much more plausible, to me.

Christ was WHOLESALE AGAINST hierarchical religion as exemplified by the pharisees . . .

and imho . . . evident in any congregation older than about 18 months.

And the older the organization, the worse the hierarchical rot seems to manifest.

The "Body of Christ" of all believers of every flavor = THE CHURCH UNIVERSAL.

Even some of the RCC documents say so . . . though others fiercely contradict that. LOL. They are masters at clinging to all sides of many critical issues.

Certainly I believe in the importance of taking The Lord's Supper. I just believe that any believer can pray over the elements and lead the doing so.

"Lording it over" is fiercely denounced by Christ in exhorting His Disciples.

I like a lot about this Pope . . . his lower key stuff . . . his humility stuff . . .

However:

He seems to be going along quite in step with his predecessors' administrations, who've asserted that the fallen angels/ET critters may be wonderful and may even have 'more accurate' or 'advanced' knowledge about Salvation than the NT records.

That's a lie from hell. And anyone who supports it is, knowingly or not, in league with hell.

So, in a lot of respects, this attack on the PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS,

is the latest MAJOR unBiblical and extremely heretical outrage to come out of the Vatican.

It is difficult for me to respect any purported "Christian" leader saying such an absurd thing.

I can't imagine construing reality otherwise. I can't call black white and white black. I can't call evil good and good evil.

Choices have consequences. And to support a fossilized, corrupted, arrogant bureaucracy and trumped up LORDING IT OVER other believers is just outrageously UnBiblical and anti-authentic-Christianity.

Thanks for your kind words. I persistently enjoy dialogue with you.

Blessings,

originally posted by: FlyersFan

The pope condemns personal relationship with Christ

That's NOT what he said.

Catholic Register - Pope Says Church is a Family That Welcomes and Teaches Us

Observing how our relationship with God “is personal but not private,” he stated that our journey of faith “is born of and enriched by the communion of the Church.”

“Whoever says they believe in God but not in the Church, has a direct relation with Christ outside of her, falls into an absurd dichotomy,” he noted, stating that “God has confided his saving message to human persons, to witnesses, and it is known to us through our brothers and sisters.”

However, to walk our path in the Church is not always easy, because “at times we encounter human weakness, limitations and even scandal in the life of the Church,” the Holy Father said.

But even so, “God has called us to know him and to love him precisely by loving our brothers and sisters, by persevering in the fellowship of the Church and by seeking in all things to grow in faith and holiness as members of the one body of Christ.”
Concluding his address, Pope Francis encouraged those present to keep in mind that, “as Christians, we cannot disregard the other, the Church; we cannot save ourselves on our own.”

He said that a personal relationship with Christ comes through the Church. That if you have a personal relationship with Christ, it's because it was brought to you by the Church. That the Church takes care of that relationship and helps it grow. He was stating that, without the church, it can wither away.

I agree and disagree with his statement.

The Church brought us scripture which brings us Jesus. The Church also brought us the great writings of the saints and the awesome prayers and mediations that bring us closer to God. But the legalities of the Church, as helpful as they can be, can also be a hinderance to many.

Which is false. You can not be part of the Church until you have a personal relationship with Christ. The Church brings nothing, God/Christ is what brings you to God.

Now the Church is important ... but some of what he said is false.

Concluding his address, Pope Francis encouraged those present to keep in mind that, “as Christians, we cannot disregard the other, the Church; we cannot save ourselves on our own.”

He is right, we can not save ourselves. The Church can't save us either. Alone or not alone, only God can save us .. the Pope seems to be saying otherwise.

ETA: OP's title is flat out wrong though. Pope did not say that.

a reply to: charles1952

Hi Charles.

What an unfortunate thread, very disappointing. The OP leads off with a laughable assertion not supported by published and readily available facts. EricD, babyloi, FlyersFan, all seek to present the truth of what was said, and counter a few of the overwhelmingly ridiculous comments. The conversation steers to people shouting, "I hate the Pope," "I hate the Church," "I hate organized religion," with various condiments added for spice. Things like anti-Christ, demonic, power-hungry, vastly wealthy, all get thrown in without regard to accuracy or relevance.

Firstly I agree and apologise to the lack of effort in the op. I had not read the articles, just seen the video and decided to share on ats in the conspiracey and religion forum.

I have my own views on the church, which are probably obvious to most considering the second video in the op.

I have since read the articles, and Unforunately, all I got from it overall was "please dont leave us, the church can't exist without you" only told in a backwards eticate that seemed to flip the script, making the people feel like it is they who need the church.... As they do!

I went to a funeral not too long ago. The family of the deceased were not a religious family, but asked the priest to say a few words during the service on their behalf... How nice it was of the priest to proceed with a speech to the mourning about "we are all sinners" and to say a prayer for gods forgiveness and basically begged the father for the deceased to be accepted into heaven.... As they do!

What if the deceased wanted to be instantly reincarnated? lol.

To be honest I did not expect this thread to take off like it did, the video interpretation of the article just had a ring of truth to it from my POV, and many others.

Some very interesting comments and other POV's too I might add.

Wifi.

a reply to: FlyersFan

Well if you define church as more than one person gathering in the name of Christ, maybe it makes sense that we should not ignore "the church". Maybe it is dangerous to try to walk alone without the input of others. I've always thought that no one person has all the answers and that we are all like puzzle pieces that need each other in order to complete the picture.

Even those who you see as false or failing can serve to warn you of certain temptations that can lead you off of the path, and with the guidance of others, that failing person can get back on the right path, though the right path might not be exactly what you think and that person may have a more vital piece to the puzzle than you initially thought.

Experiencing certain things viewed as negative, such as being a drug addict, or a prostitute, may help to give you an insight on why people do certain things that may actually help you to understand the human condition and advance yourself spiritually more so or faster than, someone who has not been exposed to such things.

When the Pope says "church" it may be, or may be perceived, that he doesn't simply mean a gathering of two or more people in the name of Christ, but specifically the Catholic Church and it's teachings and middlemen. It may be perceived that he is saying "you can only get to Christ properly through us", not your neighbor, not your family or the homeless guy or the milkman or any gathering of 2 or more people gathered in His name. Only "us".

originally posted by: masqua
There's a fine distinction between living our lives according to the lessons of the Sermon on the Mount and trying to live as if we are equal to the Christ.

To accept the ethics and morals as Jesus taught them is admirable and difficult.

To presume a personal relationship is easier but dangerous. The mindset creates a feeling of superiority over others and from that false notion comes the judgement and condemnation of others.

That's a cop out and pandering IMO.

Jesus was supposedly Gods Child. We are supposedly Gods Children too.

According to Bible teachings, we are encouraged to emulate the spirit of God, or the essence of goodness and purity in all that we do here on Earth, to be Godly in other words.

For one example among very many: 1 John 2:6....

'He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.'

In other words, be as Jesus was, and do as he did...emulate and be as Jesus.

But now...apparently not!

a reply to: MysterX

What does 'Be as Jesus was' mean if not the same thing as living our lives according to he lessons of Jesus?

a reply to: Wifibrains

There are 2 churches. The kingdom of god and the kingdom of man. One is external, exoteric. The other is internal, esoteric. The hierarchy is the kingdom of man. Francis seems to be an infiltrator into the hierarchy from the kingdom of god. He may very well be the last pope. Not in some doom scenario but as a wedge that breaks the wall.

If in his comments he is referring to the body of Christ the living stones jointly fitted together with Christ as the head then I can agree with him. If he is speaking of a heirarchy with a human head of the body then I can't agree.

Time will tell. So far he is the most like Jesus religious figure I've seen in a very long time. But that could all be a ruse. Though he's been caring for the poor for a loooooong time.