Contrails *do* influence the weather, here is proof by NASA

a reply to: Rob48

What sort of alternate reality do you live in, that would see that Cirrus that have been around for untold millennia, are in any way the exact same thing as CONTRAILS.

HMM, are you saying that some kind of effect exists in the atmosphere that mimics a freaking JET PLANE thundering through it spewing gases that are not found in nature and at those speeds, altitude ???

a reply to: ParasuvO

Let someone try and experiment of shooting HEAT without gases, into this ALREADY THERE as you all claim, water vapor that somehow hasnt frozen yet because it needs extreme HEAT so it can freeze

Why heat without gases? That's not analogous.

As for the water already being there, listen to nature. Cirrus clouds point the way. And no, it doesn't need heat to freeze but supercooled water crystallizes on the particles when present. That's how cirrus clouds form in the first place.

and then explain to us how the freezing ice suddenly spreads across the sky attracting more UNFROZEN water, that somehow was not already frozen in the -40 !

Concepts to study: Agglomeration and supercooled water in atmosphere.

Good luck.

originally posted by: ParasuvO
a reply to: Rob48

What sort of alternate reality do you live in, that would see that Cirrus that have been around for untold millennia, are in any way the exact same thing as CONTRAILS.

HMM, are you saying that some kind of effect exists in the atmosphere that mimics a freaking JET PLANE thundering through it spewing gases that are not found in nature and at those speeds, altitude ???

Let someone try and experiment of shooting HEAT without gases, into this ALREADY THERE as you all claim, water vapor that somehow hasnt frozen yet because it needs extreme HEAT so it can freeze...........and then explain to us how the freezing ice suddenly spreads across the sky attracting more UNFROZEN water, that somehow was not already frozen in the -40 !

You seem to be struggling with the science here. It is not HEAT that is needed. It is ICE CRYSTALS. And the seed ice crystals come from the exhaust.

The air at airliner cruising height is often supersaturated with respect to ice crystals. All it needs in order for cirrus clouds to form is a decent source of nucleation sites: particles that the crystals can grow on.

If there are no particles, the crystallisation cannot start.

What happens with a contrail is that the small amount of water in the exhaust freezes into ice crystals when it hits the -50C air. Those ice crystals then trigger formation of more and more ice crystals.

Did you never do the experiment in chemistry class at school where you dropped a copper sulphate crystal into the saturated solution and watched it grow? It's the same as that.

Where you are correct is that the cirrus might not have formed without a plane flying through it.

That is not in dispute.

But it is a purely PHYSICAL reaction, not a chemical one. Water is all you need. If you went up there with a water spray gun then you could make cirrus clouds, just like that.

YouTube time. How's this one?



ETA: Here's some more science-y stuff

Water droplets in clouds can be liquid despite an ambient temperature below the melting temperature of water. They are denominated supercooled and exist in a metastable state. The freezing of these supercooled droplets
could start via homogenous nucleation if a certain number of molecules agglomerates randomly due to denity fluctuations and this ice nucleus starts to grow. Homogenous nucleation of water takes place at subcooling down to -35 to -40◦C. In case of heterogenous freezing, particles, e.g. aerosol particles, form a nucleus and trigger the freezing of the supercooled droplet at higher temperatures.

Source

a reply to: DenyObfuscation

Neat video. An even more apt demonstration would have been to drop a tiny sliver of ice into the bottle. That would be almost exactly like contrail formation.

a reply to: Rob48
I haven't found one that drops ice into the water but this one is a bit different from the usual.


ETA: @ 1:45 in

originally posted by: ParasuvO
a reply to: Rob48

What sort of alternate reality do you live in, that would see that Cirrus that have been around for untold millennia, are in any way the exact same thing as CONTRAILS.

HMM, are you saying that some kind of effect exists in the atmosphere that mimics a freaking JET PLANE thundering through it spewing gases that are not found in nature and at those speeds, altitude ???

You seem to be misunderstanding what a contrail is. it is NOT the visible trail of spewed gases. If contrails were what you say they are, then they should ALWAYS be visible at the back of jet engines. As it is, they are not always visible; they are only visible under certain conditions.

A contrail is mostly water vapor that was in the atmosphere around where the exhaust spewed, and that water vapor then nucleated because of the gasses from the exhaust and grew into ice crystals -- the same way a cirrus cloud can grow from a nucleation point.

Please learn what a contrail is before you start trying to tell us what they aren't.

a reply to: robbo961

Well to put lightly yes....

originally posted by: bitsforbytes
a reply to: robbo961

Well to put lightly yes....

Hello, I'm back...

Masses of scientific evidence that supports the argument that our skies are full of aerolsols

www.carnicominstitute.org...

I'd like to see this lot debunked... goodnight and thank you

originally posted by: DenyObfuscation
a reply to: Rob48
I haven't found one that drops ice into the water but this one is a bit different from the usual.

ETA: @ 1:45 in

Ok youtube man, here's something else for you to watch

www.youtube.com...=898

originally posted by: robbo961

originally posted by: bitsforbytes
a reply to: robbo961

Well to put lightly yes....

Hello, I'm back...

Masses of scientific evidence that supports the argument that our skies are full of aerolsols

www.carnicominstitute.org...

I'd like to see this lot debunked... goodnight and thank you

Does it say how they got there? Perhaps through industrial emissions?

originally posted by: Rob48

originally posted by: ParasuvO
a reply to: Rob48

What sort of alternate reality do you live in, that would see that Cirrus that have been around for untold millennia, are in any way the exact same thing as CONTRAILS.

HMM, are you saying that some kind of effect exists in the atmosphere that mimics a freaking JET PLANE thundering through it spewing gases that are not found in nature and at those speeds, altitude ???

Let someone try and experiment of shooting HEAT without gases, into this ALREADY THERE as you all claim, water vapor that somehow hasnt frozen yet because it needs extreme HEAT so it can freeze...........and then explain to us how the freezing ice suddenly spreads across the sky attracting more UNFROZEN water, that somehow was not already frozen in the -40 !

You seem to be struggling with the science here. It is not HEAT that is needed. It is ICE CRYSTALS. And the seed ice crystals come from the exhaust.

The air at airliner cruising height is often supersaturated with respect to ice crystals. All it needs in order for cirrus clouds to form is a decent source of nucleation sites: particles that the crystals can grow on.

If there are no particles, the crystallisation cannot start.

What happens with a contrail is that the small amount of water in the exhaust freezes into ice crystals when it hits the -50C air. Those ice crystals then trigger formation of more and more ice crystals.

Did you never do the experiment in chemistry class at school where you dropped a copper sulphate crystal into the saturated solution and watched it grow? It's the same as that.

Where you are correct is that the cirrus might not have formed without a plane flying through it.

That is not in dispute.

But it is a purely PHYSICAL reaction, not a chemical one. Water is all you need. If you went up there with a water spray gun then you could make cirrus clouds, just like that.

Sorry mate but the ice crystal explaination does not scientifically rule out aerosols. You are going round in circles.

originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People

originally posted by: robbo961

originally posted by: bitsforbytes
a reply to: robbo961

Well to put lightly yes....

Hello, I'm back...

Masses of scientific evidence that supports the argument that our skies are full of aerolsols

www.carnicominstitute.org...

I'd like to see this lot debunked... goodnight and thank you

Does it say how they got there? Perhaps through industrial emissions?

Check it out for yourself, go look at the site. 9 years of scientific research on the subject. I've only scratched the surface of this myself... and have a watch of this, some would argue that it is not circumstantial evidence. I would say to those people "don't insult my intelligence"

www.youtube.com...=898

originally posted by: robbo961

originally posted by: Rob48

originally posted by: ParasuvO
a reply to: Rob48

What sort of alternate reality do you live in, that would see that Cirrus that have been around for untold millennia, are in any way the exact same thing as CONTRAILS.

HMM, are you saying that some kind of effect exists in the atmosphere that mimics a freaking JET PLANE thundering through it spewing gases that are not found in nature and at those speeds, altitude ???

Let someone try and experiment of shooting HEAT without gases, into this ALREADY THERE as you all claim, water vapor that somehow hasnt frozen yet because it needs extreme HEAT so it can freeze...........and then explain to us how the freezing ice suddenly spreads across the sky attracting more UNFROZEN water, that somehow was not already frozen in the -40 !

You seem to be struggling with the science here. It is not HEAT that is needed. It is ICE CRYSTALS. And the seed ice crystals come from the exhaust.

The air at airliner cruising height is often supersaturated with respect to ice crystals. All it needs in order for cirrus clouds to form is a decent source of nucleation sites: particles that the crystals can grow on.

If there are no particles, the crystallisation cannot start.

What happens with a contrail is that the small amount of water in the exhaust freezes into ice crystals when it hits the -50C air. Those ice crystals then trigger formation of more and more ice crystals.

Did you never do the experiment in chemistry class at school where you dropped a copper sulphate crystal into the saturated solution and watched it grow? It's the same as that.

Where you are correct is that the cirrus might not have formed without a plane flying through it.

That is not in dispute.

But it is a purely PHYSICAL reaction, not a chemical one. Water is all you need. If you went up there with a water spray gun then you could make cirrus clouds, just like that.

Sorry mate but the ice crystal explaination does not scientifically rule out aerosols. You are going round in circles.

What on earth are you talking about?

Clouds ARE aerosols. What do you think an aerosol is?

originally posted by: Rob48
Clouds ARE aerosols. What do you think an aerosol is?

That's a great point. However, even if we just want to talk about dangerous aerosols that may be contributing to a greenhouse-effect warming on Earth, I didn't see a definitive connection between contrails and those aerosols.

I mean, there is nobody arguing that our air isn't polluted with high levels of dangerous aerosols, but the largest contributors by far to greenhouse emissions are this:



and this:

It's funny, I don't know how they can say clouds contribute to warming, when the clouds reflect the sun back into space.

If anything clouds contribute to cooling. While I might not be a scientist, I can confirm this 100% because just the other day I was standing outside and a cloud went by overhead blocking out the sun and the temperature got cooler for just a second or two.

The Clouds experiment at CERN was also determined to be "inconclusive" and left them saying "we don't know".

originally posted by: ParasuvO

These new engines, you claim that eat all of their own exhaust, why do they not do that on takeoff??

They can also produce contrails on take off if it is cold enough. Some chemtrail believers probably think that the pilot has hit the 'spraying switch' too early?

originally posted by: Timing
It's funny, I don't know how they can say clouds contribute to warming, when the clouds reflect the sun back into space.

If anything clouds contribute to cooling. While I might not be a scientist, I can confirm this 100% because just the other day I was standing outside and a cloud went by overhead blocking out the sun and the temperature got cooler for just a second or two.

Cloudy nights contribute to trapping the heat of the day in.

In the winter, clear nights are often the coldest because any ground heating that the sunny day may have produced is radiated back out to space. When there is a blanket of clouds instead, those clouds prevent the heat from radiating out, and the nights are warmer.

originally posted by: robbo961


www.carnicominstitute.org...

I'd like to see this lot debunked... goodnight and thank you

Oh my, you have pulled the "Cliff Carnicom" card. We weren't expecting that. He's un-de-bunkable.
I'm afraid you win.