Contrails *do* influence the weather, here is proof by NASA

a reply to: MagicWand67

And there's no laws which prevent it from being done on small scale.

Horse Hockey...Air quality laws

2nd line...

originally posted by: DenyObfuscation

originally posted by: robbo961

originally posted by: DenyObfuscation
a reply to: robbo961

I have spent half a day watching cirrus clouds. They behave differently. They thin out and dissipate naturally without blocking the sun.

Do you know how they form?

No, I don't know where they come from or how they appear different than natural clouds but I do know the behave differently than contrails.

Cirrus clouds are natural clouds. If you're serious you should understand their significance to this issue.

The most common form of high-level clouds are thin and often wispy cirrus clouds. Typically found at heights greater than 20,000 feet (6,000 meters), cirrus clouds are composed of ice crystals that originate from the freezing of supercooled water droplets.

Source

Cirrus clouds provide you with evidence you can see for yourself. Once you understand how they form naturally you should be able to realize what's happening when you see a persistent contrail.

Did you just seriously say that a contrail and a cirrus cloud are the SAME thing??

Now we know where the "Contrail Science" is headed, yet another form of obfuscation.

Question is , who is funding both sides of this topic? It is clear things like CONTRAILS need to be eliminated, but so much effort is put into arguing as to what they are, they continue to exist , WHATEVER THEY ARE !!

a reply to: DenyObfuscation

Ice formed by what? Hot Air??

LoL these guys and the terminology they use, they want us to believe that the exhaust and burnt particulates in these "natural clouds" which are Natural formed Cirrus, (forget a plane was even there!!!),

That these particulates are NOT part of the ice! and that they do not cause these patterns of forming cirrus at ALL !!!

The real name, for a CONTRAIL, SHOULD BE something more like, GASTRAIL !????!??!

In NO WAY , can these be nothing but water trails!, Stick your head in the exhaust of a plane on the tarmac and see how that works out for ya !! WoW!!!!

originally posted by: Soylent Green Is People
a reply to: MagicWand67

This is all fine and dandy, but the fact still remains that science can describe, define, and understand contrails -- and those puffy white lines formed behind high-altitude planes look like contrails, act like contrails, form the where contrails should form, form how contrails should form, and react the way contrails should react...

...so until you have some hard evidence that tells me they aren't contrails, then I'm gong to continue thinking that they are.

So "SCIENCE" has no problem at all describing and understanding it, how is it that YOU do not agree that CONTRAILS, are not and can NEVER BE, NATURAL.

All of you who claim to be against "Chemtrails" do not seem to realize that this topic has been framed long ago, and literally ensures NOT A DAM THING is done about it!

How come this so easily understood science, which clearly is affecting the weather as much, or MORE than ANY OTHER THING, from a man-made point of view, gets absolutely no traction in getting rid of it, but instead gets a total ringing cheer of SUPPORT ?

I can guarantee if i take courses with a nose for getting RID of such CONtrails, i will be stopped as if i am the plague itself.

How can it be? That one hundred years later, as you all claim, these trails are now plaguing the earth and every dam proclaimed scientist has no idea in the WORLD how to rid us of them, or even cares to think about it???

They are to busy with the task of setting CHEMTRAILERS STRAIGHT!!! OMG THE VERY DEVILS THEMSELVES!!!

Here is a conclusion for you guys, Science is NOT about getting to the truth, in any sort of timely fashion, but is about HOLDING UP certain conclusions for as long as possible.

I would love to be a scientist, but I ask too many questions, and they get freaked out...CONTROL FREAKS, who have absolutely no idea how to really find truth !

These people actually believe they are on the right side of something, when in fact everything they do is controlled, predicted, and BORING.

I think it is time for actual science to happen, I mean, look at the name, CONTRAIL SCIENCE, ROFL this is like some kind of CREATOR naming its baby, and looking after it, taking care of it, NURTURING IT.

originally posted by: ParasuvO
a reply to: DenyObfuscation

Ice formed by what? Hot Air??

LoL these guys and the terminology they use

What, meteorologists using scientific terms? Sorry if that hurts your head.

Do you know what the temperature is, typically, at 35000ft? About minus 50 degrees. Celsius, Fahrenheit, take your pick: there's only a few degrees difference!

So yes, ice trails caused by hot air: hot air containing WATER VAPOUR.


See the gap between the engines and the contrails? The exhaust is still too hot in that gap, so the water is still in the vapour phase. It's there, but you can't see it.

Just like the gap above a kettle before the visible steam starts: the water vapour is there but you can't see it. What we call "steam" (the visible bit) is not steam, it is droplets of liquid water that condense out of steam. True steam is invisible. We only see it once it has cooled down. Same principle.


If there is anything you don't understand about this, then ask. I have a chemistry degree and quite a decent amateur understanding of weather. I would be happy to help.

I would love to be a scientist, but I ask too many questions, and they get freaked out...CONTROL FREAKS, who have absolutely no idea how to really find truth !

Absolute rubbish. Science is ALL ABOUT asking questions. You don't get a science degree without asking a HELL OF A LOT of questions, and finding answers to them.

Contrail science has been around for over half a century. Did you read the paper I posted on here from 1961?

If you didn't read it, let me help you out with a relevant quote.


WILL PERSIST FOR HOURS. This was written 53 years ago. And you claim it is not understood?

a reply to: ParasuvO
Thanks for reading the post and trying to comprehend it, even though you did butcher the quoting.

Did you just seriously say that a contrail and a cirrus cloud are the SAME thing??

Pretty much, yeah I did. Perhaps you can express your displeasure rationally by pointing out the differences?

It is clear things like CONTRAILS need to be eliminated,

Many agree and NASA and probably many others have looked into ways to do that.

a reply to: ParasuvO

The real name, for a CONTRAIL, SHOULD BE something more like, GASTRAIL !????!??!

Of course not, THAT would be stupid. If the trail were made of gas it would be invisible. That's the point, the trail is SOLID. As in frozen. ICE.

originally posted by: ParasuvO
a reply to: DenyObfuscation

Ice formed by what? Hot Air??

LoL these guys and the terminology they use, they want us to believe that the exhaust and burnt particulates in these "natural clouds" which are Natural formed Cirrus, (forget a plane was even there!!!),

That these particulates are NOT part of the ice! and that they do not cause these patterns of forming cirrus at ALL !!!

The real name, for a CONTRAIL, SHOULD BE something more like, GASTRAIL !????!??!

In NO WAY , can these be nothing but water trails!, Stick your head in the exhaust of a plane on the tarmac and see how that works out for ya !! WoW!!!!

No one is saying the only thing present in the exhaust of a jet is water vapor...

But, if possible, I could drive a semi-tractor or a car at that altitude, I would be leaving a white trail of water vapor behind the vehicle as I drove along...same thing.

originally posted by: ParasuvO
...The real name, for a CONTRAIL, SHOULD BE something more like, GASTRAIL !????!??!

In NO WAY , can these be nothing but water trails!, Stick your head in the exhaust of a plane on the tarmac and see how that works out for ya !! WoW!!!!

True -- there are other things in jet exhaust...

HOWEVER, almost all of the visible part of that trail is water ice. In addition, a large portion (albeit not all) of the water that formed that visible ice was water that was already in the air before the plane passed through it.

What I'm saying is that a large portion of a visible and persistent contrail is water ice that did NOT come from the burning of the jet fuel. Much of it came from the atmosphere -- either water vapor that condensed out of the air behind the plane, or water vapor in the air that was sucked into the engine intake in front of the plane (and most of the air sucked in through the jet's intake does not go through the combustion chamber -- i.e., it is not used for burning the fuel -- but rather it is compressed and exhausted out the back of the engine).

Granted, there is some water that is formed bu the burning of the hydrocarbon fuel (the hydrogen in the fuel chemically combines with the oxygen in the air, forming water as part of the exhaust), but as I said, most of the air sucked into the engine is NOT used in the fuel-burning process.

So, you ARE correct when you say that jet exhaust is more than just water. Nobody is denying that. However, when we talk about contrails, we are talking about those visible lines. Most of a plane's exhaust is (for the most part) invisible, especially from the efficient engines in use today. Water vapor is invisible. The only time that water in the air becomes visible is when it is cooled to a sufficient temperature relative to the humidity level. The exhaust behind a jet engine is mostly invisible until the water freezes into contrails.

By the way:
Most of the stuff in car exhaust is also mostly visible -- at least for a newer car in good repair. The only time you would see a white billowy car exhaust is when it is cold enough-- and that visible white stuff is mainly water.

originally posted by: MagicWand67
a reply to: DenyObfuscation

If you want direct examples that's fine.


Scientists tinkering with our atmosphere

The Charged Aerosol Release Experiment

right, and if we will never know about it if it happens, then.......how do you know about it? They published a paper about it. But what about all the secrecy?

originally posted by: ParasuvO
Question is , who is funding both sides of this topic? It is clear things like CONTRAILS need to be eliminated, but so much effort is put into arguing as to what they are, they continue to exist , WHATEVER THEY ARE !!

That is a fantastic question. who is funding both sides of this.

I'll let you have the honors with the google. Check out contrails, then check out chemtrails. You will notice that there are three main sites that discuss contrails. Nasa, Metabunk, and Contrail science. Now the last two are fully funded my Mick West, a retired software designer who takes pleasure in educating people about contrails rather than watching them wallow in ignorance about chemtrails.

Now, look up chemtrails. Massive amount of sites dealing with this. And notice the key thing. the donate button. Almost all chemtrail sites have them. So in essence, you fund the chemtrail meme.

See, the science that explains contrails is old. It hasn't changed much since it does a great job of explaining things. then you have the newer studies like "ice budgets" which if you chose to read and understand then they completely blow any hope of chemtrails being real right out of the water. (luckily, most don't try to understand all that)

a reply to: Soylent Green Is People
Studies have shown that only about 1 part in 10,000-30,000 of the visible contrail comes from the exhaust. The remaining 99.99+% comes from the atmosphere.

a reply to: ParasuvO

I would love to be a scientist, but I ask too many questions, and they get freaked out...CONTROL FREAKS, who have absolutely no idea how to really find truth !

Here you go, read this pdf.

Show us "How to really find truth !".

ETA: Here's your target

There are at least four orders of magnitude more ice present in the contrail core than the Sabreliner originally exhausted!

originally posted by: Rob48
a reply to: Soylent Green Is People
Studies have shown that only about 1 part in 10,000-30,000 of the visible contrail comes from the exhaust. The remaining 99.99+% comes from the atmosphere.

Thank you for providing the real number. I knew that most/a large majority of the visible "stuff" in a contrail was NOT a direct byproduct of the burning of the fuel, but I didn't know the number.

For example, I know that the high-bypass engines used by most airliners today takes up to 85% of the air sucked in the front of the engine and bypasses the combustion chamber of the engine (it compresses that air and uses it to spin turbines). Therefore, up to 85% of the air exhausting out the back of the engine is simply the same air that was sucked in -- air not used in the burning of the fuel.

a reply to: network dude

The science has not changed much because apparently someone believes that creating all manner of cloud cover that WOULD NOT have formed previously is a NATURAL EFFECT.

What part of "These would NOT have become cirrus on their OWN" do you people not understand ?

a reply to: Soylent Green Is People

Why is it so unbelievable to believe that the exhaust is being added to the ice crystals? Why do you all claim with no evidence whatsoever that the exhaust somehow remains separate?

And furthermore, who cares if we can see it or not, it is adding darkness to the earth PERIOD...and god knows what else.

These new engines, you claim that eat all of their own exhaust, why do they not do that on takeoff??

Pretty sure you would be badly damaged or even dead if you inhaled those fumes for even 10 seconds.

a reply to: ParasuvO

Nobody is disputing that contrails increase cloud cover. What people are disputing is that this is in any way deliberate or nefarious. It has been happening ever since planes first started flying at high altitude.

You seemed to be denying that contrails are the exact same thing as cirrus clouds. Do you now accept that this is the case?

Why is it so unbelievable to believe that the exhaust is being added to the ice crystals? Why do you all claim with no evidence whatsoever that the exhaust somehow remains separate?

Who said the exhaust "remains separate"?

I pointed out that in a typical persistent contrail, less than 0.01% of the ice crystals are combustion products from the exhaust. The rest are made up of water that was already in the atmosphere.

The exhaust is there, mixed in, but incredibly diluted. And even that 0.01% is almost entirely water! The other major product is CO2 which does not condense, for obvious reasons.

originally posted by: DenyObfuscation
a reply to: ParasuvO

I would love to be a scientist, but I ask too many questions, and they get freaked out...CONTROL FREAKS, who have absolutely no idea how to really find truth !

Here you go, read this pdf.

Show us "How to really find truth !".

ETA: Here's your target

There are at least four orders of magnitude more ice present in the contrail core than the Sabreliner originally exhausted!

Hmm, an interesting point, that i am seeing here , now.

The ice, must be super fine and we cannot see it, some CHEMICAL reaction takes place causing these particles to fuse together, to bind in all manner of weird patterns...

Problem is, not all of these act in the same manner despite the exact same flight paths of planes, so clearly different engines, fuels WHATEVER, are having DIFFERENT EFFECTS.

A CONTRAIL IS A CONTRAIL, is EPIC FAIL, from a Scientific point of view.. and certainly NOTHING is normal about them, EVER!!

Let someone try and experiment of shooting HEAT without gases, into this ALREADY THERE as you all claim, water vapor that somehow hasnt frozen yet because it needs extreme HEAT so it can freeze...........and then explain to us how the freezing ice suddenly spreads across the sky attracting more UNFROZEN water, that somehow was not already frozen in the -40 !

a reply to: Rob48

Ya that makes sense, since a contrail that large as you all claim, could not be as a result of spraying. LOL.

However, I and anyone with a brain, would realize that WITHOUT those exhaust gases, NOTHING would have formed!

THE ENTIRE BASIS OF THE CONTRAIL, IS THE EXHAUST, it is the ULTIMATE BUILDING BLOCK, PERIOD!!