David Paulides downplays mountain lions!!!

The missing Herdman thread got me thinking and revisiting the work of Paulides whom I'm very familiar with. Read some of his books and have listened to many of his interviews. I think he definitely downplays the role mountain lions could have played in many of these disappearances especially among children. I know I'll probably get flamed by the die hard Paulides fans but I think really studying mountain lions and see how inept and incompetent sheriffs deptarments and SAR can be i.e. saying it's highly unlikely mountain lions or predators are involved in such and such cases. Most of the time they have no idea. My view on this has recently changed after reading a lot about cougars in general……more specifically this site………….read through all these detailed attacks…………I always had the laymen's view on cougars that they are dangerous but attacks are pretty where. I think that's a complete overstatement.

www.cougarinfo.org...
I've read through all the attacks and especially the ones on kids stand out.

Anyways, cases like Christopher Thompkins I think Paulides is SPOT ON! That is the spookiest of all the cases I've ever read about.

a reply to: GreenMtnBoys

You are going to get flamed but I think you may know this.

If you are in their domain a cougar attack is a real possibility. They will get you from behind and chances are... you won't even know what hit you. They will go for little ones more than adults as well. I know out here if someone spots a cougar everyone hears about it in a hurry; to the point that recently when someone got a pic of one on a wildlife cam they posted the pic on the bulletin board at the local store. They are a threat to young livestock AND to people. In some parts of the country the edge of human habitation and cougar habitation are getting more blurred; human encroachment and animals more desperate and desensitized to the human presence. I think it is entirely possible cougars could be taking kids.

How would cougars explain finding someone with no obvious signs of a cougar attack, a mile or more uphill from where they were last seen?
Signs of attack by cougars would have been noticed and reported. I don't recall any such mention in the missing cases I've read about.

originally posted by: GreenMtnBoys
The missing Herdman thread got me thinking and revisiting the work of Paulides whom I'm very familiar with. Read some of his books and have listened to many of his interviews. I think he definitely downplays the role mountain lions could have played in many of these disappearances especially among children. I know I'll probably get flamed by the die hard Paulides fans but I think really studying mountain lions and see how inept and incompetent sheriffs deptarments and SAR can be i.e. saying it's highly unlikely mountain lions or predators are involved in such and such cases. Most of the time they have no idea. My view on this has recently changed after reading a lot about cougars in general……more specifically this site………….read through all these detailed attacks…………I always had the laymen's view on cougars that they are dangerous but attacks are pretty where. I think that's a complete overstatement.

www.cougarinfo.org...
I've read through all the attacks and especially the ones on kids stand out.

Anyways, cases like Christopher Thompkins I think Paulides is SPOT ON! That is the spookiest of all the cases I've ever read about.

I will be interested in watching this thread, in the mail today was his Missing 411 East Coast book. After a couple of youtube soundtracks from C2C I was interested so I ordered it from his site. Thanks. And BTW I know of someone who had their horse attacked by a Mountain Lion while they were riding. I think it is very plausible, one of the things he mentioned in the soundtracks is the quiet at the time of disappearance. Thats definitely Mountain Lion.

Great topic though.

a reply to: GreenMtnBoys

I thought one of the criteria for Paulides to investigate was an obvious lack of animal involvement?

As in, he wouldn't investigate a case if it was obvious some wild animal, in this case mountain lions, was a possible culprit.

a reply to: GreenMtnBoys

I'm not sure about the Missing Herdman case but I do know lots about cougars.
Cougars are very territorial & will attack you if:
A) You are near their cubs
B) You are in their territory
C) They need food & their natural food source is being diminished.

One of my Aunt & Uncles lived in the back country outside of Nelson, B.C, Canada & they had to always be on alert for cougars. They had two dogs & one day a cougar came down into their yard. The dogs started barking & the cougar was hungry enough to kill one of the dogs. My Uncle came out with his riffle & killed the cougar, he couldn't let it live because the cougar could come back for the other dog or for his kids.

I've read countless tales of people being attacked by cougars, they try to get you from behind & they go for your head. They love brains!! They aren't afraid of dogs & will often go for the smallest easiest target, which can be children.

Edit:
After looking up the story, I think you are talking about the missing fireman, they should get Mantracker (Terry Grant) to find him)

a reply to: knoledgeispower

I'm from a small town in BC (not gonna say where). About 7 years ago I was working in Red Deer, Alberta and on the front page of the local newspaper was a story from one of the local lakes from my BC town. A starving cougar was carrying a small child by his head into the bush from a campsite. Some people noticed it was happening and attacked the cougar and saved the kid.

I've run into bears many times before, like arms length away, and had no problems. But I've never seen a cougar itself. I have seen cougar tracks in snow following my tracks while hunting, and I've heard them, but never seen 'em alive and in the wild.

The prospect of it being cougars has been brought up a lot. They're a very unlikely culprit because of a few reasons:

1. Cases where someone disappears around other people are pretty frequent, and they hear nothing at all. If your little boy was attacked by a cougar 10 feet away from you, you'd probably hear something.
2. The bodies they find don't appear to have been attacked by animals.
3. Some people come back.

I'm sure there are more reasons. That said, I think they could be the explanation in a few cases.

originally posted by: Vovin
a reply to: knoledgeispower

I'm from a small town in BC (not gonna say where). About 7 years ago I was working in Red Deer, Alberta and on the front page of the local newspaper was a story from one of the local lakes from my BC town. A starving cougar was carrying a small child by his head into the bush from a campsite. Some people noticed it was happening and attacked the cougar and saved the kid.

I've run into bears many times before, like arms length away, and had no problems. But I've never seen a cougar itself. I have seen cougar tracks in snow following my tracks while hunting, and I've heard them, but never seen 'em alive and in the wild.

Lol I'm from a small town in B.C too. A couple hours away from where the Kootanys start. I think I recall the story you are talking about, it was a big deal.

I haven't been out in the wilderness much as I'm only 27 and live in a small city. That being said, there have been cougar sightings in my town & a couple neighboring small towns but only in the last 7yrs because people are developing into cougar habitats.

I have personally never seen one in the wild but I hear about them all the time & did a big research project on them when I was in elementary school.

a reply to: knoledgeispower

Which small city, if you don't mind me asking?

This is turning into a tiny town BC thread, lol. I have lived in the Kootenays most of my 60 years and spent a great deal of time in the bush and went with hunters and guides to the top of the Rockies many times. What David Paulides is talking about is the lack of evidence of an animal attack- "if" it was an animal attack there should be foot prints, scuffle marks, possibly torn clothing on brush, blood, a dropped back pack, broken twigs, or a shoe, etc.

The cases he investigates show no signs of an animal attack for these reasons. Perhaps there are some of his cases that actually are (unidentified) animal attacks that show no signs due to terrain or weather, but to trained eyes (like search and rescue or hunters/trackers) they are looking for these signs from the get go and if they don't see any signs the natural conclusion is it was not an animal attack.

My guess is that the vast majority of David's cases are not animal attacks because anyone attacked struggles and bleeds and leaves some indications. A cougar attack is not silent - the victim will make noise and there will be an audible scuffle to anyone nearby. And depending on the area cougar attacks aren't all that common - many areas have no cougars in the first place. Yes they will go for young children and pets if hungry - and chances are if any of these disappearances were from a cougar/mountain lion the remains would be discovered after it had been eaten within a reasonable distance - is not likely they're going to drag it for miles before eating.

I appreciate that Paulides does not give explanations, just the facts. These disappearances could all have different explanations or many have a common denominator. Such a lot of unsolved mysteries! He's done a huge service by bringing these to light :-)

a reply to: GreenMtnBoys

They are rare, but becoming less so every day, with the incursions into their territory by people wanting to get away from the cities.

...and you won't know they're around. I'm fairly good in the wilderness, and I've been followed more than once. You haven't had a double take 'til you wake up one morning to discover Cougar tracks walking around your tent from the previous night. That's better than any coffee for waking one up... All in all? I prefer coffee.

Or, the time I was elk hunting. Got skunked, and was headed back to camp, and found a set of coug tracks in my own tracks from that morning...

They're generally only curious... But not always, especially if they think they're being crowded...then all bets are off.

soooo,lions/cougars undress their victims,lay clothes neatly down,run off with all their shoes? also,the few kids found alive,one tiny girl said big "wolf" took her,said the dog ate her hat,then gave her some berries in it's hand! all sounds perfectly normal to me.

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: GreenMtnBoys

They are rare, but becoming less so every day, with the incursions into their territory by people wanting to get away from the cities.

...and you won't know they're around. I'm fairly good in the wilderness, and I've been followed more than once. You haven't had a double take 'til you wake up one morning to discover Cougar tracks walking around your tent from the previous night. That's better than any coffee for waking one up... All in all? I prefer coffee.

Or, the time I was elk hunting. Got skunked, and was headed back to camp, and found a set of coug tracks in my own tracks from that morning...

They're generally only curious... But not always, especially if they think they're being crowded...then all bets are off.

Like I said, I've found cougar tracks following my own tracks in snow, like within an hour timeline. It wasn't a big deal since I had a shotgun and buddy had a rifle, but still though the area we were in was rather small (like 1km between a highway and railroad) so the only thing we couldn't figure out was where the cougar was hiding. We just assumed it was up in a tree or something.

According to everything I've ever heard, they're usually as high up as they can get.

I don't know personally, In all my time in the woods, and mountains, I've never even caught a glimpse of one. Just the pug marks which told me they saw me....

I'd give a lot to see one safely. Both for him and for me.

a reply to: GreenMtnBoys

That could be the case for some of them, they seem to be very elusive animals and good at avoiding detection. so I wouldn't be shocked if that turned out to be the case for some. But becuase mountain lions have been extirpated on the east coast it cant account for those

I am curious about this. Does anyone know what signs, if any, are left at the scene of a cougar attack?? I have read that, with some big cats, such as leopards, there can be little to no trace of the attack itself; even blood can be scarce. So, how about with cougars? Searching didn't net any good results on that. Any wildlife folks that know?

Of course, many of the cases, there is no way it could have been a cougar. Some, hard to say, but I'd like to know what id done to rule out an attack. It's stated that is done, but without details to satisfy the more curious mind.

I love his books, for the record.

How do we know that Paulides gives the facts? Has anyone checked random Paulides' cases against police records, coroner's reports, etc? If they match his reports, it should bolster his credibility. If they conflict with his reports...well.

I am half way through his Western USA Missing 411 book. Tangerine you bring up an excellent point about verifying his documentation with publicly available information and is worth a look.

So far I have had issues with some of his cases, especially those that he supplies 1 or 2 lines of information. Comparing those cases to his more in depth cases you have to ask yourself how did a disappearance from 1967 with nothing more than the person's name get put into the book?

One Example:
Annie Puglas
Missing: 04/19/67, Alert Bay, Vancouver Island, BC
Age of disapperance: 43

With this much information how was he able to classify this as a "strange" disappearance worthy of an entry in this series of books?

The mountain lion angle I just can't buy.

David lists the strange circumstances all these cases have in common (except the few like the one above)

Those unique characteristics are:
1. Rural settings
2. dogs (often owners run after them into the bush or search dogs can't find or won't follow a scent)
3. Storms (storms often happen shortly after the person goes missing)
4. Disappearances happen in the afternoon
5. Disappearances happen in swamps and briar patches
6. Semi-conscious state
7. Berries (yep berries)
8. Clothing removed
9. Found in area already searched

(Not all cases share all characteristics, most share only a few.)

After examining several cases so far and looking at the list of similar factors in many of the cases I doubt mountain lions could be considered in these cases. That is not to say mountain lions or other predators are not to blame in some missing persons cases, just not these. In the cases I have read thus far the persons or bodies found generally are found without wounds consistent with animal attacks. Most bodies are found to have died of exposure.

originally posted by: bphi1908

7. Berries (yep berries)

I can hear Paulides warning me to not go pick huckleberries right now!

But in all seriousness I'm fairly positive the berries thing is just a spurious correlation and is not a 'factor' in why the people in these cases go missing.

They're not disappearing because they're picking berries, like Paulides seems to imply in some of his interviews, but because their decision to pick berries put them out in the wilderness where people go missing.

They have an equal opportunity to go missing whether they're out there to hunt, hike, find Bigfoot, or dare I say even fathom picking huckleberries.