curious question of the US securing its border with Mexico

a reply to: Flatfish

You bring out good points.

And I agree no border will be 100% fool proof.

Not unless its fully militerised and weaponised in which case the cost will be more than it is now,

a reply to: crazyewok

I've been of the opinion for a while that we have a lot of military that knows a thing or two about desert warfare ... why aren't they patrolling that border now that we're bringing them home?

I also notice every time I drive by Ft. Riley that most of the vehicles are painted in desert camo ... what are they doing on the plains, not on that Southern border?

originally posted by: thesaneone
a reply to: crazyewok

We will never have a 100% secure border but what we can do to slow it down is to let the agents do what they are suppose to do also I'm for letting the border states take care of business without the Feds restrictions.

agreed you can try an slow it down.

Somewhere someone will have to work how far to go with prevention while being cost effective.

Cutting illegal immigration by half by prevention may be a possible goal,

The other half ? Other measures could be taken like regugee camps, some sort of registration process and high taxation route for those that do make it through, deportation of those unwilling to work, stiff penatlys for US citizens employing illegals, restriction on welfare acesss ect

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: crazyewok

I've been of the opinion for a while that we have a lot of military that knows a thing or two about desert warfare ... why aren't they patrolling that border now that we're bringing them home?

I also notice every time I drive by Ft. Riley that most of the vehicles are painted in desert camo ... what are they doing on the plains, not on that Southern border?

I may be ignorant here but isnt it illegal to deploy US troops on US soil? Unless a state of emegancy declared?

I may be wrong.

Well a study for just building a fence along the entire 1,969 border was projected at 22.4 billion. And that is for a fence. Right now Obama has spent more on border patrol and deported more illegals than at any other time in our history and it has not made a dent. In 1990 we were spending 200 million a year now we spend 3 billion. In the 1990s we had 4 thousend border patrol agents now we have 20 thousand. So to secure the border with Mexico it would take trillions of dollars. And then of course people would just come by boat, plane etc. I mean lets face it farms, companies, contruction exc. are going to need cheap labor or our economy will collapse. So they would find a way.

Of course that would assume anybody really wanted to close the border. I mean we did not really bother with it at all unitl the late 80s. Before that you could role across the border with ease. And for most of Amricas existance that worked just fine. Now we waste billions on it. Billions to stop people who without, the cost of food would skyrocket. No President is going to be the President that tells America we have spent trillions to secure the border no more illegals. Also about the food shortages, I am orderding all Amricans to do a month in fields for free. Sorry but, somebody has to do it. It is however a political tool so Washington will keep spending more and more and still have nothing to show for it.

a reply to: MrSpad

Thanks.

Certainly show thats "securing" the border no simple task,

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: crazyewok

I've been of the opinion for a while that we have a lot of military that knows a thing or two about desert warfare ... why aren't they patrolling that border now that we're bringing them home?

I also notice every time I drive by Ft. Riley that most of the vehicles are painted in desert camo ... what are they doing on the plains, not on that Southern border?

I may be ignorant here but isnt it illegal to deploy US troops on US soil? Unless a state of emegancy declared?

I may be wrong.

I am no legal expert but I believe our wonderful patriot act put the nail in that coffin posse communist or something.

a reply to: crazyewok

It is unless the governors request it or unless we create military bases along it. The ranchers would likely be upset, but one super long, super thin base all along the border in patrol zones might be a start. And if Mexico's political situation keeps deteriorating ... we might wind up having to, but I think National Guard have been deployed in a support capacity along the border in some spots.

a reply to: crazyewok

Are you saying no one in a small boat at night coming ashore to an isloated shore-place in the UK can NOT get in?

There are thousands of spots around the British Isles one could get ashore without any trouble. Same here in America.

Whats worse than the Mexican border? The Canadian border. Thousands and thousands of miles open to forest and mountains and rivers...no fences, no monitors, no guards, no people, no nothing.

One day...I believe its there that will be the entry point for everything and everyone illegal...

a reply to: MrSpad

He has NOT deported more than any other president!!!!

They changed the criteria so that anyone TURNED AWAY from coming into the country was counted as a "deportation"!

•In the past, removal numbers did not include “returns,” who are Mexican nationals caught illegally crossing the border by the Border Patrol and returned.◾According to the yearbook, returns are the confirmed movement of an inadmissible or deportable alien out of the United States not based on an order of removal.
◾Most of the voluntary returns are of Mexican nationals who have been apprehended by the U.S. Border Patrol and are returned to Mexico.

•The Obama administration has started counting certain “returns” as “removals” in order to artificially inflate the numbers and create a “record level” of deportations. Specifically, those caught by the Border Patrol who are shuttled to a different town along the border before they are returned are being dishonestly counted as deportations. This has falsely increased the number of total removals by more than 100,000 for the past two years.
•In fact, if we count removals and returns together historically, then the Obama administration numbers are not close to “record-setting.” In the 1990s, the totals of returns and removals were well over one million. For example, according to the yearbook of immigration statistics, in 1996, removals and returns numbered more than 1.6 million, up from more than 1.3 million in 1995.
•In an October 2011 roundtable with Hispanic reporters, President Obama himself said the deportation numbers were artificially high because they include those caught at the border:

Source

originally posted by: mysterioustranger
a reply to: crazyewok

Are you saying no one in a small boat at night coming ashore to an isloated shore-place in the UK can NOT get in?

There are thousands of spots around the British Isles one could get ashore without any trouble. Same here in America.

Whats worse than the Mexican border? The Canadian border. Thousands and thousands of miles open to forest and mountains and rivers...no fences, no monitors, no guards, no people, no nothing.

One day...I believe its there that will be the entry point for everything and everyone illegal...

How much do the Canadians guard their ports? Basically, if they keep watch on their ports, then I worry less about our northern border. If their ports aren't watched ... well, yeah, that's a potential issue waiting to happen.

a reply to: mysterioustranger

Canada? Really?

I dont think hords of canadians are trying to flee to the USA and last I checked there was a absence of third workd countrys in that part

But yeah of course the UK shore line is unsecure but the US is hundreds of times bigger.....

a reply to: crazyewok

My solution is simple.

Prosecute illegal immigrants using their own country's laws.

Most South American immigration laws are far harsher than the US laws.

a reply to: crazyewok

my idea is similar to g146541 maybe not quite as draconian. think the great wall of china except a little more modern.

i say build a wall about 30 foot wide from the gulf coast of texas to the pacific in california, that a humvee should be able to turn around or make a 3point turn on. build a reasonable size guard shack every quarter to half mile. with monitors for cameras and sensors that would be placed along the wall. cameras about every 1/8 mile, sensors positioned where their limits allow. then use the national guard from every state on a rotational basis, along with the border patrol, doing foot and motorized patrols. also i would have drones fly random patrols that would be at the discretion of the commanders, that way they couldn't get a fix on what times they fly. then i would close all entry points and set up maybe two or three.
one would be just for vehicles only that would go through a more detailed search than they do now. there are a lot of goods that come up through mexico and from mexico not all of it is bad and not all of it is contraband.

and as g146541 said we could put the unemployed and people on welfare to work on it that can work. hell for that matter we could train some of them to be border patrol agents and get them off welfare.

a reply to: crazyewok

All the rhetoric about securing the boarder is just that, shills at work creating misdirection .

No one will even mention the law on the books that says people who hire illegal immigrant's will be fined.

Initiate this law and enforce it and the illegals will go home on there own, there would be no jobs.

a reply to: g146541

You mean hire me and pay employee withholding, insurance and enough money for me to survive? As opposed to an illegal who works under the table sleeps in the field and accepts peanuts to feed his wife and kids back home?

Who's the Agriculture corp. going to pick?

Was it Food, Inc. the movie that showed this disparity? Plenty of illegals working in the farming industry at picker, chicken house, slaughter house jobs. The INS does token raids to deport a few aliens looking good for the camera while ignoring all the rest everyone knows are undocumented. The corporations seem to have no trouble filling the ranks with these (according to the film) and everyone turns a blind eye.

But if I went there to apply for a job, there wouldn't be any openings. I cost too much.

Anyway, I'm on your side (except for the machine guns), cheers.

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: MarlinGrace

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: MarlinGrace
a reply to: crazyewok

I think I would call the guys that did Area 51 and turn them loose on the border. Isn't it amazing when they want to secure something cost is no object and no problem. If satellites can see a license plate from space in any spectrum of light, certainly they can see someone crossing the border illegally. With American business across the border and trucks passing to deliver goods we could just build a vacuum chamber to put the truck in. Have the driver get out, suck out the air. Then the second process would be making the chamber a highly electrified box. Then stowaways would last a few days and viola', no searching necessary.

Technology yes could secure the borders.

But again whats the price tag?

Area 51 security likely has a very very large bill.

Would it be cost effective? I doubt it. Thats the problem price tag.

Just for the current batch we have already dedicated 100's of millions, and there are already 12 million here, just killing the medical system.

Seriously if it cost a billion we would be money ahead the ROI would have to be just over a year. Oh and I don't think anything the government does is cost effective. I don't know how it is in the UK but in the US we have the market cornered on wasteful spending. We are the only country in the world that can drop a $55,000 laser guided bomb get 5,000 worth of dirt hut damage and kill the wrong people.

The thing I think it will cost alot more than billion, especialy with goverment waste,

Cheaper option may be trying to tax illegal workers, exclude them from welfare and deport non workers.


You may be right, this isnt a bash America thread,

UK shares your illegal problem and to me US has a bigger job due to its land border.

Yes part of the problem is they are undocumented, on our horse ranch there was several surrounding ranches that had small trailers set up for the illegals to clean, and do labor related jobs. They were always paid in cash, and they literally sent part of the cash in the mail back home. So they are already doing illegal things not claiming the income and paying taxes. I don't know how you could tax them any other way.

This is a government problem they really are not interested in addressing the flow of people, and I don't think you need to secure the border 100% but if you could make it 85 or 90% what a difference that would make. Being born in California and intimately involved with this I could fill pages of stories and information. Just one short one, my son inlaw worked for the company installing the camera systems at the border check points for ICE and border patrol. Guess who they used for landscape maintenance? You guessed it the same illegals they were trying to keep out.

It's really a mess and the current administration is making it much worse. Oh and if you saw the news today from the US and saw the people of Murrieta protesting over the government sending them there, that corner is 500 feet or so from my moms house. She wasn't protesting, but she is pissed.

a reply to: hounddoghowlie
Your idea and mine are not so far apart, the major differences is mine is designed to stop trespassers.
A camera only records and reports after the fact, and human involvement only allows corruption in.
Humans have feelings and also take bribes.
My idea of automation will only reinforce the idea that this soldier cannot be swayed, and if you test it, you will fail.
Early on sure there will be some horrible numbers, but after say the first few weeks, nobody will try to cross the wall.
The added time it will take to get a boat safely around the security zone and up the coast will make it much harder and costly for the coyotes to get here.

More toward the general thread..
I do agree with the many in this thread who mention the laws we already have that are not pressed.
The idea of using another countries laws against them is a fine idea as well.
Maybe with a ten year sentence for illegal crossing, the illegals could work on road crews Etc. to pay for their incarceration.

a reply to: crazyewokHey Ewok, I don't think these Americans realize that they can't and shouldn't do anything about this. The vast majority of the National Wealth has already been financialized and moved offshore (a lot of The Very Wealthy have gone with their Money, flown off in their Gulf Streams, to nice places).

There is No Chance of any Real Growth in The US Economy (it is Debt Over Saturated). The people coming to The US from wherever they're from will leave without being asked once The US becomes poorer than where they came, most will try and move to the next Wealthy Resource Rich Society. Unfortunately for them or their Children or Grandchildren, these countries will already be run by Totalitarian Despotic Regimes (ie China, Russia etc.) All they'll get in these places is a Long Stretch in A Slave Labor Camp for entering these countries to "Share their resources"

Already gasoline is being rationed by price, food is becoming prohibitively expensive as is Medical Care and Education and Housing. Not Long Left, so There's No Need To Worry, once they have eaten everything, they will have to move on and I'm afraid on this Small Planet most of the peoples are not of the liberal enough persuasion to allow themselves to be colonized. and subsumed.

Peace Shaved Fish

It will never happen.

But I'd really, really like to see two things (which will never, never happen.) #1, take Mexico's laws regarding illegal immigration and translate them word for word and adopt them. Next time Mexico's el Presidente wants to stand in our Congressional hall and lecture our (supposed) representatives, toss him out.

#2 - W-3 audits. I spent years preparing taxes. Each return filed electronically went to the IRS where the social security number, last name and year of birth were compared to the Social Security database. We got an accept/reject on that information within 12 hours - often 2 hours. So, take an employer's W-3 (lists all the W-2 wage statements filed), compare to the Soc Sec database. More than a certain % not matching, audit and fine the heck out of them. Dry up the jobs by making it expensive to hire illegal, and illegal immigration should drop.