Sorry, I only had time to post in one thread. Now that Cowlan et al have admitted his arguements are complete falsities, and are undefensible, I now
have time to continue discussion here.
I will start by posting a couple posts I had made in the Russian Subs to India thread, where, as usual, the usual suspects started flaming away
merrily at India, hoping that the sheer volume of their BS would drown out truth.
Sadly for them, Satyameva Jayate, as the old Sanskrit phrase goes: "Truth Alone Triumphs"
Cowlan and Hawksss posts apparently came originally from this thread, so it serves it well that their debunking should be posted here as well.
Oh good LORD!
Your entire post is filled with straw-man arguments, attributing idiotic statments you
made to me.
Your posts show an incredible ignorance of the Indian military. And more importantly, the points you bring up in it are completely random, completely
irrelevant to my post or the discussion at hand!
What, did you spend all of 15 minutes cutting and pasting together rhetoric, hoping to pass it off as discussion?
You must be so proud.
Let me take it from the very top.
Originally posted by HawkssssYou have crashed 4 Mirage-2000 recently also. Is that human delusion. lol
That is four crashes in an entire 20-year lifespan, genius. IAF's Mirage 2K attrition rate is lower than that of even France
Here is a good link to PLA weapons system and please don't even try to say crap until you go through it!
Dude, I have continually demonstrated I have a more comprehensive understanding of Chinese military technology and doctrine than you.
I also post
quite regularly in China-Defense.com, the only credible Chinese defense website (and universially regarded as such), where far more mature, rational
discussion takes place than any of the wforums.
Can you guess who I am there
1) China does't have AWACS: well you know what, we do. take a look at these photos???? It is reported that China already bought two An50I and
one English source reported that China is in the process of fielding our self-make AWACS. This is an interview with the designer with our own
??? Where the hell did I say China doesn't have AWACS in development?
[Running total number of times you put things in my mouth: 1]
However, I have seen zero evidence, anywhere, that China's AWACS project has been operationalized. What has been seen is are flights involving a
modified mainstay (And Jesus, the correct terminology is A-50I! It's an Beriev derivitive of an Ilyushin aircraft
! Your knowlege of the PLA is
quite impressively demonstrated
Frankly speaking, as of now, these A-50s are simply empty shells, sourced from Russia. When credible information comes out about Chinese developments
in AWACS-related technologies, or any official pronouncement comes out informing us of AWACS induction, or the like, then I -- and the rest of the
world (except PLAAF fanboys) -- will say that China has an AWACS.
Regardless, IAF has three seperate AWACS developments. One, and most significant, is the Israeli Phalcon AWACS, to be installed on a A-50 derivativel.
Bar-none, the most capable AWACS system currently in operation the world (America has several AWACS projects in the works.) It comprises an ELTA solid
state phased-array radar and ELINT system that allows for simultanious air/ground tracking and unprecidented radar coverage over tens of hundreds of
miles. This will most likely be inducted into the IAF around 2007, when the Chinese AWACS supposedly would be inducted.
India also plans induction of Phalcon on an Embraer platform, as well as having its own AWACS program, which is expected to be inducted in the 2007-8
2) China is still fielding T-55 while india is fielding advanced british tanks. Like what. Do you have a frigging idea what you are talking
about??????? Do these photos look lik T-55 to you? And what advanced british tanks exactly does india have, like the Challenger???? I thought it is
fielding Russian T-72s mostly as their top of the line and most of their tanks were as old as some of ours!!!!! And they have scrapped their Arjun
tank which was delayed for 10 years!!!!
LMAO! Did I miss a post somewhere? Where the hell did this come from? British tanks? Let's see...
[Running total number of times you put things in my mouth: 4]
India's Arjun project is scrapped??
Are you talking about the same tank that is being inducted in regiment numbers? Are you talking of the same
tank that is undergoing final end-trials before full-scale induction? Are you talking about the same tank that comprehensively outclasses both Chinese
and Pakistani armor?
Autocar India magazine, India's largest automotive rag, did a comprehensive review of the Arjun, and interviewed both military and project
development staff. It is the most comprehensive third-party review of an MBT project in the Asian continent.
A PDF of the article is available here:
Be sure to read closely about the capabilties and induction dates.
If this does not clear up any of your concerns about the Arjun project, I want you to bring me specific criticisms.
And I will gladly address
Regardless, the bulk of India's armor is still quite superior to the Chinese equivilants -- regardless of the fact that Indian and Chinese armor
will never meet in combat
3) India's navy is better. Like what!!!! All it has are the two old carriers that are about to retire. They haven't added any DDGs in the
past few years while chinese navy added two new Sovys (with two more due next year and the year after) and 4 054 Aegis-equivalent DDGs, a few 054
Steath frigates, Yuan-Class subs, etc. What has india added besides the 3 steath frigates it bought from russia????????
[Running total number of times you put things in my mouth: 8]
You're joking, right?
The Indian navy comprhensively outclasses the PLAN in terms of technology, power-projection and punch. The IN is expanding at a significantly
faster clip than the PLAN. The stated target by 2017, well reachable, is centered around a three Carrier Battle Group Fleet with 20 MR Aircraft and 50
helicopters, and 185 ships and 40-50 submarines, including SSBNs.
Recently the IN has inducted three Delhi Class, four Talwar class, three advanced Talwar class, nineteen ships in production, plus in 2-3 years the
induction of even newer vessels such as P-15A, P-16 classes.
The current Indian naval fleet at the very least matches, and in nearly all respects, outperforms their PLAN equivilants. Is this fact really in
The number of advanced/capable ships in the PLAN are smaller than that of India.
I reccomend the following links to discussion about the comparative capabilites of Indian and Chinese ships:
Our total naval tonnage is on a matter 2 or 3X of that of india and while there sub fleet is only a fraction of ours.
So what? The majority of your naval tonnage are rust buckets that wouldn't last a day in combat, even if
they had the capability for blue
So people, please stop bullshiiiting if you know nothing. Bottom line is we make the majority of our own ships while india almost can't make
anything. Its Dehli-Class DDG is at least one generation behind our new DDGs with VLS and Aegis-equivalent air defense system.
This is rich. Before I waste time debunking a foolish arguement. I want a specific comparison, detailed explanation from you comparing Type 054 to
their Indian equivilant, in terms of weapons, systems, and ASW capabilities.
I'll let you, with your awesome knowlege of the IN, figure out what
ship classes exactly those are
[Running total number of times you put things in my mouth: 11]
4) In terms of airforce, both are comparable in technology while we have a huge numerical advantage and we produced huge numbers of planes such
as upgraded J7s, J8 etc and the new J-10 is under mass production and is exporting the FC-1 while india doesn't make ANY, ANY aircrafts and their air
force is called "flying coffin"
With the exception of China's numerical superiority (mainly comprised of MiG-19 rips
), the rest of this is pure, unadulterated BS.
I won't rehash the same explanations again, as you seem to be brilliantly able to forget that your 'facts' have been continually, comprehensively,
refuted by me and others.
I refer anyone interested to the following threads where I have gone into very
great detail debunking this shrill rhetoric.
Strangely enough, or not so, Hawks fled from those threads with his tail between his legs, when faced with actual fact.
The reason he refuses to debate in those active threads about this subject is because he simply cannot.
For every claim he makes, I point have
pointed out how and why its BS. So instead Hawksss tries to derail this thread with the same accusations, hoping that everyone will forget that
his accusations were proven to be crap in the above threads
We have our own trainer FTC-2000 while indian airforce's training is so bad that they are called the flying coffin and they had to buy some
british trainer recently. See again, they can't make crap.
What do you call IJT, AJT? Do you even know what those acronyms mean? LOL
5)In 1962, we beat them so bad that it is still hurting and some indians think they can take Tibet?????? lolololol, they can't even control
Kashmir and China still occupies a piece of Kashmir (bet you didn't know that). Do you hear any bombings and things of that nature in China while we
have insurgents in Xinjiang (mulism and connected with Al Quada) also?
Are you seriously comparing Xinjiang's terrorism with that of Pakistan-backed terrorism in Jammu&Kashmir? LOL. I'm not even going to address the
absurity of this comparison, as it would be another tangent you'd love to distract this discussion with. Open a new thread if you want this.
Regarding the 1962 war, here is a website I and a friend have authored:
It goes into very great detail how China was able to best India in this border skirmish forty years ago. Suffice it to say, China launched a surprise
attack against India whom it had just signed a friendship pact with; the Indian army was 1/3 the size it is today, equipped with WW1 and WW2 vintage
weapons, the IA troops in the war were outnumbered by the Chinese attacking forces by a ratio of 1:6; the IA troops had no
supply lines, a
day's worth of ammo, etc.; they were not acclimatized; and finally, they had no heavy weapons; deployed in tactically indefensible, totally
unfortified positions, etc.
And yet they still managed to kill six times as many Chinese soldiers as they were killed?
Are you seriously suggesting a similar situation exists today? When fully 2/3s of the IA comprises mountain eqipped divisions, with numerical parity,
technological superiority, far more active-war and mountain-war experience, etc., etc.?
Have you forgotten the drubbing China took in the various clashes since then? Where India and China had parity of numbers, so no doubt victories were
due to superior leadership, training and combat skill?
If you would like to read more about this conflict, from a both Chinese and Indian disucssion about it (me included), please visit the following
And of course
[Running total number of times you put things in my mouth: 13]
6) here is a link for security ranking by INDIANS, not by chinese.
And I do not dispute the ranking. In fact, I have their very report in hard-copy (www.nsrf.com...
I wonder if you understand that the index they have compiled deals purely with that what they term 'defensive conflict power'; i.e. the abiltiy of a
country to repel attacks rather than conduct them.
It futher expands on the notion of comparable deployment which makes a direct country-by-country comparison of NSI rank un-comparable. In other words,
China has a larger NSI rank due to its sheer numerical superiority against every other country; yet the technological sophisitication of numerous
second-teir countires that have no force projection capability, such as ROK, Japan, Sweden, have improved their NSI (defensive) ranking considerably.
The NSRF report details how exactly that China's deployable forces against India have parity in number and inferior technological sophistication. Are
you even familiar with the concept of relative force deployability?
China has more troops + planes. It also has a 2x larger border surrounded on
all sides by hostile nations. The same reason India cannot withdraw significant troops from the Pakistan front to combat China in a war is the same
reason why China cannot bring comprensively numerical superiority verus India that would negate Indian tech/training advantage.
Are you suggesting something different?
7) please don't even compare our armies, missiles/space forces. Entirely two different leagues and please spare me of my typing.
LOL! I believe we have just compared the Armies, and found China lacking significant advantage. In terms of technology, weapons, training, and
experience I dare say India has the advantage -- of course negated by China's sheer numbers, again.
I will give you that China has a 5-8 year lead in missile/space forces. Not that India doesn't already have a credible nuclear deterrant versus China
already, and is fast catching up in missile technologies as well.
[Running total number of times you put things in my mouth: 12]
8) Our GDP is more than 2X that of india in gross terms, PPP and on a per capita basis and industrial and manufacturing capabilities is on the
scale of several times that of india. Our foreign reserve is aournd $500 bil vs. india's $130 bil.
And yet India still manages to bring superior military technology at the fraction of the price as China, as well as comparative force numbers?
Ain't the concept of strategic scale grand?
9) China's military budge ($50 bil) is more than 3X that of india ($15 bil) while both countries have similar purchasing power. And most
western countries suspect that China spends more than this and india buys disproportinately more weapons from other countries than China by a huge
China's military budget acccounts for both purely military applications as well as the military/governance system that is the entire PRC
administrative structure. The number of troops, and the number of actively hostile fronts ensures that the per-soldier budget is less than that of
The ability of India to source domestic as well as foreign systems allows for a considerablely more cost-effective technological superiority whereas
China must develop inferior domesitc weapons systems ensuring Chinese tech inferiority, and interms of small-ticket purchices, creating gross
ineffeciancy; it's simple economics.
India's current military fleet reflects clearly India's ability to maintain credible conventional parity and nuclear deterrance versus China. It is
also a testiment to India's military-industrial/politcial complex that, despite China's continued increased military spending, makes the straegic
gap between India and China in terms of both weapons systems and technologies, grow smaller each passing year.
[quote10) China doesn't have GPS system
Well you know what, we do... It's called Beidou and completed last year.
11) China commits human rights violation while india is a peace-loving people.
Human rights abuses happen in India, like in any developing country. Are you seriously trying to compare the human rights record of China versus
Good luck, chum.
[Final total number of times you put things in my mouth: 13]
Brilliant cut-and-pas.... er... I mean "discussion" on your part.
You just like digging yourself deeper and deeper into the ground, don't ya.
Originally posted by COWlan
Indian navy have yet to acquire Aegis equivilant airdefences therefore it is extremely vulnerable to modern anti-ship missiles and lack capabilites in
terms of air defences.
However on the other hand, China has acquired Aegis equivilant radar systems and has already installed them on two destroyers.
Excuse me? Are you implying China's Type-52Cs or purchise of knocked down Sovremennys gives the PLAN Aegis-like capabilities?
The Aegis system
is more than just a phased array radar buddy. The meat of the system lies in its fire control and tracking computer systems. Suffice it to say, no one
outside Aegis-equipped nations has Aegis-like capabilities.
The Chinese Sovry has an older model Fregat (Nato: top plate) phased array radar system. Its a nice system, but no where in the range or capabilities
of an Aegis weapons system. Your Sinodefense claims 52C has a phased-array
system similar to the Aegis, not a Aegis-comparable weapons
And, as a matter of fact, ("fact" being something new to you), India has more advanced phased array radars in service than the PLAN; a more modern
version Top Plate radar on its 3
Talwar class missile frigate
currently being built), will have upgraded version of the same
on its Project 17 class missile frigates [tricked up Talwar] (3
being built + 7
more projected by 2010), its 3
missile frigates carry the Elta phased array, the 3
Delhi class destroyers have the latest model MR-775 Fregats, and the 3-8
Bangalore class carry an upgraded version of the same with Indian and Israeli control systems, and the last should enter service by 2010.
So that's 4 (with the potential for purchase of 2 more) PLAN destroyers, versus 12 + 4 being built
with the potential by 2010 of +15
Indian ships with superior radar systems?
Should I mention the fact that all
of these ships, with the exception of the Godaviris, but even that's debateable, carry superior firepower
and superior weapons systems than the PLAN Sovrys, currently, and the Bangalore, Delhi, Talwar, Brahmaputra and P-17 outclasses the 052s in weapons
and weapon load?
India will not have an Aegis-comparable combat system until the induction of the P-15a, and even then, it would not be comparable. The next generation
(P-30) destroyers will have comparable systems. Even now, America has offered knocked-down Arleigh Burke class (aegis) destroyers to India, so if
India wants to go down that road, it can.
India has yet to acquire stealth destoyers while China already has four.
LOL, the 52s are now "stealth" destroyers? Not quite, buddy. They have reduced RCS and employ radar-absorbent materials, but, guess what!, so does
the Delhi, Bangalore, P-17, Godaviri, Talwar, and Brahmaputra!
Again, if we were to accept your BS definition of what constitutes a "stealth" warship, than again, India has considerably more that are
considerably more powerful.
India has yet to acquire modern planes for its aircraft carriers.
What do you call SHARs? MiG-29Ks? And by 2012, when SHARs are retired, NLCAs?
Lookit this. The guy chides us for supposedly not having "modern" aircraft on our carriers, and uses this as a negative comparison to his navy!
Completely 'forgetting' the fact that we do
have carriers, as well as an escort fleet that outclasses 90% of the PLAN by generations, and the
other 10% by power-projection ability, range, weapons, systems and firepower!
India has yet to acquire SSBNs to secure its survival rate of its nuclear forces in case of nuclear exchange.
With China (and for that matter, Pakistan) not even having the capability to neutralize India's current strategic forces, I hardly think that's an
issue. Regardless, as I said, wait about 5 years until the ATV starts sneaking around the IOR.
No, a nuclear bomb of 100 kiloton is not enough to destroy a city as they have limited explosive range and radiation fallout range. A medium
size nuclearbomb has a damage radius of around 8 kilometers. Use the A=Pi r squared equation to calculate its damage area.
You literally had me open mouthed at this statement. I don't know whether to laugh or cry when the future of the PRC is sitting here with a strait
face arguing that the only strategic damage from a nuclear weapon is only within the resulting blast radius.
Can you even begin to grasp the concept of economic, strategic, electromagnetic, agricultural, medical, etc., etc., etc. damage that a single
nuclear weapons blast over in podunk village in rural
China would have??
So far I've refrained, whatever my gut instinct, from calling you an sniviling moron, but, Jesus, this kind of (il)logic takes the cake!
And may I ask where was I ignorant of PRC/PLAN capabilities.
Lets see: their capabilities, radar, weapons systems, design... is there anything left that you haven't got wrong?
A much out dated carrier with little ability to defend itself is a drag on the abilities of surround vessels and reduce their
Now India has outdated carriers?
When we build aircraft carriers we shall build one of 60000+ tonnage but that shall be in ten years at least if Taiwan gets resolved in
The day China puts to see a carrier with 60kton displacement would be the day Zimbabwe launches a moon mission.
Arjun is inferior to the Chinese T-98 and T-99G.
Oh yes yes. I've already heard that. What I want to know is how
[your cut and paste from a 4 y/o article about the Arjun]
Its cost is around 2 times that of the T-98, which offers good armor, excellent laser defence, good arsenal of missiles, good fire control system,
communication system and excellent range.
I honestly am not familiar with the cost of the T-98.
I'm glad you say it has "good" armor, "excellent" laser defense(???
), good FCS, etc...
I have yet to see any credible figures from you.
I want a direct comparison from you or your pals of the Type-98 vs. the Arjun in the following areas:
Awaiting your esteemed analysis.
Arjun specs are well known. I posted a great resource with specs straight from the developers mouth earlier in this thread.
I would like credible sources for all your claims. And no, the Sinodefense.com fansite doesn't count!
(Manufacturer/official specs would be quite