The Tibet/Nepal Quandry....

This is to continue the tibet thread which degraded into personal attacks and viciuos comments..unfortunately the thread was closed when after a long time the last few posts wre moving towards the military perspective..I trust this thread will stay more on topic than the previous one...To maintain continuity here's the link to the last post page



www.abovetopsecret.com...


Also here is the "weapon oriented portion" of my last thread...

Back to weaponry..COWlan we've been over this before...it will never be 40 Su-30 MKIs (which are better than the MKKs btw) vs 400MKKs..
The chinese will never mobilize the entire Su-fleet....too many aggresors on the eastern coastline...even Russia isn't so friendly...
On the other hand India just has to worry about Pakistan for which it does not need Su-30's...
I agree that no one knows how good chinese pilots are but with that arguement you could end up at "PLAAF pilots being the best in the world" !!
We've trained with the USAF,RAF,CCCP AF, French AF and other small timers like singapore(RSAF), and south african AF.Even the PAF is pretty good and we've fought two wars with them!!...We've been out there with the best..Unfortunately the only chinese AF display has been with the EP3 orion incident which even you must agree was pretty shameful..and that waas definitely pilot error...
I n North Korea and Vietnam.. I don't know which AF was victorious...was it the chinese?And im only talking AF not ground war...
Check the aircraft forum...IAF is rumored to be the most skilled in mountainous combat with Siachen and all....The NorthEAstern sector has at least 5 to 6 fwd AF bases just for china...The nearest chinese AF base is Chengdu..Air re-fueling will be a necessity for the PLAAF...Give me info on PLAAF air-refueling capabilities and experience, Su-30 MKI's have practised air re-fueling which extend flight time up to 10 hrs!!Mirage 2000s have flown to South Africa for chriss sakes!!

Also answering W4rlrd no India will never invade tibet by itself..IT does NOT WANT TO LIBERATE TIBET okay? There i've said it..this is a hypothetical scenario which involves china moving into Nepal..which it is covertly doing with the maoists as we speak..In fact the Nepalese chief of army staff was in Pune today to witness the NDA passing out parade and to negotiate futher military assistance from India to repel the 'increasing maoist' threat...Hence the scenario I depict is purely India acting to Nepal's fall which will obviuosly progress into Tibet...India will not stop at liberating Nepal..Now I've assured all chicoms that India will not attack tibet unprovoked..Can you do the same about china's intentions towards Nepal?? If any chicom can then this thread ends HRE NOW..because this war will never happen!!
Im waiting for an answer...

And please to all those who wish to grace this thread with their thoughts remember:
1)No comparisions involving trade, std of living, mortality rate,govt oppression,toilet paper...etc.etc..from either party PLEASE!

2)This thread does not involve India attacking first..it won't happen thatway...I can assure you, as i have stated before this scenario this thread is in a hypothetical response to the fall of NEPAL .Again if any of the chinese members can assure me that Nepal is not being pursued by china then ..this thread hasNO REALISTIC scenario depiction whatsoever...but that doesn't stop us from hypothesizing...The Nepal angle was just to give the theory some realism.

Back to weaponry..COWlan we've been over this before...it will never be 40 Su-30 MKIs (which are better than the MKKs btw) vs 400MKKs..
The chinese will never mobilize the entire Su-fleet....too many aggresors on the eastern coastline...even Russia isn't so friendly...
On the other hand India just has to worry about Pakistan for which it does not need Su-30's...
I agree that no one knows how good chinese pilots are but with that arguement you could end up at "PLAAF pilots being the best in the world" !!

Lets talk about the Air Force.The Su-30 MKKs are not our fronline fighters at the moment,they are used for the fighter-bomber role as i mentioned,frontline fighters?Save that for the J-8 now or J-10 later.If the war comes now,China would probably mass produce J-10s.This means it will proably be say....100 mixed fighter aircraft from India against 600 mixed fighter aircraft from China.China can still use their J-7s if need be,they are still quite reliable


Next,Holding off the pakistanis with just MiG-21s.That is plain arrogance (save ignorance for more stupid people).I highly doubt the MiG-21 Bis could win a 1 on 1 dogfight/shootout against a F-16.In the recent war,the losses from A2A combat was 19 to 19,and the Indians also fielded their Su-30s,while the Pakis fielded their F-16s.


Air refuelling for PLAAF,they are currently undergoing tests for their own refuelling tanker,check www.sinodefence.com.


Now for ground combat.The Chinese have an advantage here,having more T-72 upgrades than the Indians have T-72s,and more T-55 upgrades than the Indians have T-55s,Also more Type 98s (finally an original?) than Arjun tanks.Infantry?China has more of them,their equipment are around the same level.


Hope this was an interesting insight for this topic.Oh and talking about toilet paper,Indians have plenty of them,and muslims prefer to do it with water even when they have plenty of water

The biggest difference is the huge disparity between the indigenous military industry of the two countries. China can produce most of our own weapons and have a much, much bigger economic and industrial base. If ever both countries go to war, India will be beaten not only because of our superior military, but also atrribution due ot our overwhelmingly dominant economic power

Here is a good link to PLA weapons system and please don't even try to say crap until you go through it!
www.sinodefence.com...

1) China does't have AWACS: well you know what, we do. take a look at these photos???? It is reported that China already bought two An50I and one English source reported that China is in the process of fielding our self-make AWACS. This is an interview with the designer with our own indigenous AWACS.
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...

2) China is still fielding T-55 while india is fielding advanced british tanks. Like what. Do you have a frigging idea what you are talking about?Do these photos look lik T-55 to you? And what advanced british tanks exactly does india have, like the Challenger???? I thought it is fielding Russian T-72s mostly as their top of the line and most of their tanks were as old as some of ours!!!!! And they have scrapped their Arjun tank which was delayed for 10 years!!!!
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...://www.wforum.com/specials/articles/02/757.html

3) India's navy is better. Like what!!!! All it has are the two old carriers (50-year old) that are about to retire and 8 DDGs. They haven't added any DDGs in the past few years while chinese navy added two new Sovys (with two more due next year and the year after) and 4 054 Aegis-equivalent DDGs, a few 054 Steath frigates, Yuan-Class subs, etc. What has india added besides the 3 steath frigates it bought from russia?

Our total naval tonnage is on a matter 2 or 3X of that of india and while there sub fleet is only a fraction of ours.

So people, please stop bullshiiiting if you know nothing. Bottom line is we make the majority of our own ships while india almost can't make anything. Its Dehli-Class DDG is at least one generation behind our new DDGs with VLS and Aegis-equivalent air defense system.

I am not even gonna mention the steath fast attack boats, which has been discussed in a different thread.

What has india made?

www.wforum.com...
www.sinodefence.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...

4) In terms of airforce, both are comparable in technology while we have a huge numerical advantage and we produced huge numbers of planes such as upgraded J7s, J8 etc and the new J-10 is under mass production and is exporting the FC-1 while india doesn't make ANY, ANY aircrafts and their air force is called "flying coffin". Please don't even mention LCA, which has failed a test in Russia just recently and they crashed 3 Mirage 2000 last month along. (yes, I can provide all the source you need on these)

www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.sinodefence.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...

We have our own trainer FTC-2000 while indian airforce's training is so bad that they are called the flying coffin and they had to buy some british trainer recently. See again, they can't make anything
www.wforum.com...

5)In 1962, we beat them so bad that it is still hurting and some indians think they can take Tibet?lolololol, they can't even control Kashmir and China still occupies a piece of Kashmir (bet you didn't know that). Do you hear any bombings and things of that nature in China while we have insurgents in Xinjiang (mulism and connected with Al Quada) also?

The PLA has fought against the US-led UN forces successfully in Korea driving them back from the china-korea border back to the 38th parallel where the war stopped till today. (the casualty of China+n. Korea is roughly equal to the casualty of UN forces+S. Korea). We have skirmished with USSR, Vietnam and entirely and thoroughly obliterated the Indians in 1962. Not to mention, we had a huge hand in Vietnam as well.

Who besides the pakistanis and Chinese have the indians fought?

6) here is a link for security ranking by INDIANS, not by chinese.

www.nsrf.com...

7) please don't even compare our armies, missiles/space forces. Entirely two different leagues and please spare me of my typing.

8) Our GDP is more than 2X that of india in gross terms, PPP and on a per capita basis and industrial and manufacturing capabilities is on the scale of several times that of india. Our foreign reserve is aournd $500 bil vs. india's $130 bil.

China is the world's No. 1 steel maker (over 200 million tons in 2003) while India is the 8th with (with only 36 million tons of production in 2003-2004). China is the worlds No. 3 ship maker and I have no idea where india ranks!!!

China's soverign rating or country rating by Standard & Poor's is BBB+, which is investment grade while India's soverign rating is BB+ which is non-investment grade or junk status.

9) China's military budge ($50 bil) is more than 3X that of india ($15 bil) while both countries have similar purchasing power. And most western countries suspect that China spends more than this and india buys disproportinately more weapons from other countries than China by a huge margin.
www.cdi.org...
www.globalissues.org...

10) China doesn't have GPS system

Well you know what, we do... It's called Beidou and completed last year.
www.cctv.com...

12) Bottom line: China is making proportionally more and more indigenously while India is still buying most of its stuff from overseas while we outspend them 3 to 1. This only means India is being left behind by China further and further just like our economies. Our eoconomy grows faster than india's and in a decade, Chinese economy will be about 3X that of India while their population will surpass that of China in the next decade, without any revaluation of our currency which is most likely to happen in the next decade. Do you know what that means?

Good God!

The above several posts contain so many blatant factual errors, inane generalizations and empty rhetoric, seemingly totally taken at face value by the masses here, that its no wonder the previous thread descended into a hate-India BS-fest. Just look at that LCA thread, and what garbage was being bandied about as fact or reasoned opinion.

Are there no other Indian members who will call out these flamebaits for what they are??

*sigh* I wish I had more time to spend on these boards to rebut these conclusively. Already, I've over-committed myself to too many threads as it is...

-Raj

[edit]
Well, dammit, over the next several days, I'm going to make time. The till-now unfettered, uncountered BS spouted by the certain ubernationalistic members against India is coming to an end.

Peace.

[edit on 3-12-2004 by rajkhalsa2004]

There wont be any war between India & China. none of them can afford it. Both countries' economy is booming because of foreign investment & If any war happens, both countries will have worst economy. Foreign investors will look at other countries.

Also China has to think about taiwan & India can't really stop China. Both countries have weapons but china has in thousand where as india has them in hundreds. But both has Nukes & I think there want be any war between two Nuke power state.

Raj,you ran out of arguments? Well then too bad for you,shut up and let us continue the topic.

In the beginning, only 5 countries were allowed to have nuclear weapons,they are the US,Russia, France, UK and China. However, countries like India and Israel, Pakistan, North Korea and all the rest have developed or bought them. A nuclear war will not happen;India has about a 100 nukes, China has thousands of them, if anyone tosses a nuke, International opinion will go down the drain and trade will be affected.

You see...

Your copycatting that line from me from the other thread only would have worked here if I had MADE an argument to begin with.


But I give you a 10 for effort

this is a super stupid discussion

why would India want to "liberate" Tibet and fight a war with China

this is the most stupid idea ever

"this is the most stupid idea ever"

I agree 1000000%.

Originally posted by white_raven0
this is a super stupid discussion

why would India want to "liberate" Tibet and fight a war with China

this is the most stupid idea ever

Your answer is one of the most ignorant ever...You failed to read the pilot post...The is a little factor involved called NEPAL!! Thats how India would fight such a war...no other way!!As I said china has vested interests in Nepal and not peaceful interests that too...no chicom member has denied that...hence the thread topic is valid, if china wants Nepal we wont let them have it..Infact if things get real and Nepal falls then India may go as far as Tibet too in a counter offensive...PLZ READ THE PILOT POST AND THEN COMMENT ON THE STUPIDITY/IMPROBABLITY OF THE TOPICJeez!!

Answering W4rlrd, no MiGs 21s will not be enough to hold Pakistan off, I accept that but you're forgetting the mainstay of ith IAF interceptor fleet..MiG-29..I think everyone would agree that the MiG-29 is capable of combating old block 50 F-16s...Hence India does not need Su-30s for Pakistan.
Also since you say that Su-30MKKs are anti ship primarily then you would also agree that they would be inferior to an air-superiority fighter like the MKI..So It would be mostly su-27s,vs. Su30 MKIs, Mirage 2000s, and Mig29s..
Also the Jaguar deep penetration fighters would be very effective in such a scenario, as the brit members would agree.Cope Thunder is proof to that...

And W4rlrd, which war are you talking about when you said that botht the PAF and IAF fielded F-16s and Su-30's and casualties were 19 on each side ? ...no such war ever happened!!!
Also if India is caught in a pincer war between Pakistan and China it would obviuosly go on the defensive but then nobody would just sit and watch. Especially if India was acting on Nepal's behalf!!

Hawksss for the last time please stop with sinodefence and wforum!!
Even your national security index stunt was belittled by me!!ROK has a higher NSR than the UK and France in that list!! That doesn't mean that its stronger than them!!!

Now i have my exams so i probably wont be able to post till the 20th...hope this dvelops well till then..please read the TOPIC PILOT POST guys!!Otherwise the jist is lost!!

Has anyone been to India?

India needs to liberate itself from corruption and poverty, before it can think about liberating Tibet -- one wonders why.

Deep

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Has anyone been to India?

India needs to liberate itself from corruption and poverty, before it can think about liberating Tibet -- one wonders why.

Deep

umm yeah...I stay there!!!
The corruption poverty clause well thats been a western ploy for long now...You suggest India just sit and watch while China envelops Nepal..or should India let the US handle that issue?Maybe let the US build some bases on Indian soil??
Ha...No wonder the US became the world big daddy..because it told everyone to handle poverty corruption etc..while it would handle the security...and see what has happened now..The US is in Taiwan, Middle east etc. etc...
Yes I agree poverty, corruption is of prime importance, but national security comes first...always...

Originally posted by Daedalus3

Hawksss for the last time please stop with sinodefence and wforum!!

Hmm...can the Indians stop posting from bharat-rhashak?Do that first.


IF the war happened,Why would India even care about Tibet?Lets leave it to the US,don't mind me saying this,but yes,feed your people first and take care of the corrupt people in the government before trying to protect Tibet.

Here is a good link to PLA weapons system and please don't even try to say crap until you go through it!
www.sinodefence.com...

1) China does't have AWACS: well you know what, we do. take a look at these photos???? It is reported that China already bought two An50I and one English source reported that China is in the process of fielding our self-make AWACS. This is an interview with the designer with our own indigenous AWACS.
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...

2) China is still fielding T-55 while india is fielding advanced british tanks. Like what. Do you have a frigging idea what you are talking about?Do these photos look lik T-55 to you? And what advanced british tanks exactly does india have, like the Challenger???? I thought it is fielding Russian T-72s mostly as their top of the line and most of their tanks were as old as some of ours!!!!! And they have scrapped their Arjun tank which was delayed for 10 years!!!!
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...://www.wforum.com/specials/articles/02/757.html

3) India's navy is better. Like what!!!! All it has are the two old carriers (50-year old) that are about to retire and 8 DDGs. They haven't added any DDGs in the past few years while chinese navy added two new Sovys (with two more due next year and the year after) and 4 054 Aegis-equivalent DDGs, a few 054 Steath frigates, Yuan-Class subs, etc. What has india added besides the 3 steath frigates it bought from russia?

Our total naval tonnage is on a matter 2 or 3X of that of india and while there sub fleet is only a fraction of ours.

So people, please stop bullshiiiting if you know nothing. Bottom line is we make the majority of our own ships while india almost can't make anything. Its Dehli-Class DDG is at least one generation behind our new DDGs with VLS and Aegis-equivalent air defense system.

I am not even gonna mention the steath fast attack boats, which has been discussed in a different thread.

What has india made?

www.wforum.com...
www.sinodefence.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...

4) In terms of airforce, both are comparable in technology while we have a huge numerical advantage and we produced huge numbers of planes such as upgraded J7s, J8 etc and the new J-10 is under mass production and is exporting the FC-1 while india doesn't make ANY, ANY aircrafts and their air force is called "flying coffin". Please don't even mention LCA, which has failed a test in Russia just recently and they crashed 3 Mirage 2000 last month along. (yes, I can provide all the source you need on these)

www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.sinodefence.com...
www.wforum.com...
www.wforum.com...

We have our own trainer FTC-2000 while indian airforce's training is so bad that they are called the flying coffin and they had to buy some british trainer recently. See again, they can't make anything
www.wforum.com...

5)In 1962, we beat them so bad that it is still hurting and some indians think they can take Tibet?lolololol, they can't even control Kashmir and China still occupies a piece of Kashmir (bet you didn't know that). Do you hear any bombings and things of that nature in China while we have insurgents in Xinjiang (mulism and connected with Al Quada) also?

The PLA has fought against the US-led UN forces successfully in Korea driving them back from the china-korea border back to the 38th parallel where the war stopped till today. (the casualty of China+n. Korea is roughly equal to the casualty of UN forces+S. Korea). We have skirmished with USSR, Vietnam and entirely and thoroughly obliterated the Indians in 1962. Not to mention, we had a huge hand in Vietnam as well.

Who besides the pakistanis and Chinese have the indians fought?

6) here is a link for security ranking by INDIANS, not by chinese.

www.nsrf.com...

7) please don't even compare our armies, missiles/space forces. Entirely two different leagues and please spare me of my typing.

8) Our GDP is more than 2X that of india in gross terms, PPP and on a per capita basis and industrial and manufacturing capabilities is on the scale of several times that of india. Our foreign reserve is aournd $500 bil vs. india's $130 bil.

China is the world's No. 1 steel maker (over 200 million tons in 2003) while India is the 8th with (with only 36 million tons of production in 2003-2004). China is the worlds No. 3 ship maker and I have no idea where india ranks!!!

China's soverign rating or country rating by Standard & Poor's is BBB+, which is investment grade while India's soverign rating is BB+ which is non-investment grade or junk status.

9) China's military budge ($50 bil) is more than 3X that of india ($15 bil) while both countries have similar purchasing power. And most western countries suspect that China spends more than this and india buys disproportinately more weapons from other countries than China by a huge margin.
www.cdi.org...
www.globalissues.org...

10) China doesn't have GPS system

Well you know what, we do... It's called Beidou and completed last year.
www.cctv.com...

12) Bottom line: China is making proportionally more and more indigenously while India is still buying most of its stuff from overseas while we outspend them 3 to 1. This only means India is being left behind by China further and further just like our economies. Our eoconomy grows faster than india's and in a decade, Chinese economy will be about 3X that of India while their population will surpass that of China in the next decade, without any revaluation of our currency which is most likely to happen in the next decade. Do you know what that means?

there has not been a single post from bharat rakshak from me ever W4rlrd..And I haven't seen one on this thread for a long time...Also if you've noticed Hawkkss has been copy pating the same post every time...

Hawkkss What is NSI??Do you know??

Also Nepal is our problem..not the US..they're a Hindu majority...If Nepal falls then India won't wait for the US to do something..The US can deal with China the way it likes on the eastern coast...Nepal is our prerrogative..and if the chinese don't let go then tibet becomes an issue too..otherwise no..like i said before..only if the nepal clause comes in...

[edit on 5-12-2004 by Daedalus3]

The two countries here are from different classes,China has vastly superior numbers while India has SLIGHTLY better equipment and traning,and numbers do matter in modern warfare,can Israel take on India? Answer is no.

[edit on 5/12/04 by W4rl0rD]

But I told you already China cannot afford to contribute vastlyy supperior numbers to the frontline, to many aggressors on the coastline and up north..We might even see taiwan becoming adventurous..But W4rlrd since you and other chinese still continue this arguemnet, I must assume that even you consider Nepal as a Chinese expansion program target aye?

Today's India and China

India has total of 28 million cellular users as of the end of 2003 and 18 million new users were added in 2003. See
www.thehindubusinessline.com...
China has total of 270 million cellular users as of the end of 2003 and around 60 million new users were added in the same year. See:
www1.chinadaily.com.cn... (the news in 08/2003)

Internet users in India: More than 16 million: see: www.internetworldstats.com...
Internet users in China: 78million. See: www.clickz.com...

Broadband users in China:17.4 million. see: www.infoworld.com...
Boroadband users in India: I believe it can be ignored.

Less than 28 million tons of iron and steel was used in 2003 in India (An important index of infrastructure construction. This is the total India produced in 2003, and India is a net iron & steel exporter)(This is even less than what China produced in 1978 when China began its reform)
China produced around 225 million tons of iron and steel and imported other 35 million tons in 2003 for the construction.
See: www.worldsteel.org...

55% of the world cement (Another infrastructure construction index) was used in China. See www.economist.com...

China's expressway (at least 4 lanes, speed limit 100KM/hour or 120KM/hour) reaches 30, 000KM. Around 4, 600 KM is being added each year. See: english.sinocp.com...
India just began its first expressway project in 2003: See: timesofindia.indiatimes.com...

India produced around 36 million tons of oil (A natural resource index) in 2003 and will face the resource problem soon.
China produced 160 million tons of oil in 2003 and imported more than 100 million tons in the same year.

Around 30% of Indian male cannot read newspaper and 50% of female cannot read. that means around 40% of Indians cannot read. See
www.cia.gov...
Less than 16% of Chinese cannot read (most of are old person and they missed the education opportunity in the old time). See
www.cia.gov...

India has more arable land than China. Indian produced 250 million tons of grains in 2003 (Thanks for the good weather).
China usually produces 400 million tons of grains each year no matter how tough the weather is (Thanks for the biotech in China).

Economy sectors:
China: Argriculture: 15% of GDP, Industry 52% of GDP, Manufacturing 35% of GDP, service 33% In 2001
India: Argriculture: 24% of GDP, Industry 27% of GDP, Manufacturing 16% of GDP, service 48% In 2001
These data comes from World Bank. You can conclude that China's industry size is at least 4 times of India's after a very simple calculation. You can see how little India's industry is.
China's industry increased 16.8% in 2003. See: www.cet.com.cn...
India's increased about 8%.

Speaking of the software industry, China's software industry is the similar size of India. The difference is that Chinese companies rely on domestic market while India has almost no IT market comparing with the big countries around. China has its own software brands such as KingSoft, Rising(anti-virus), Jiangming (Anti-virus), RedFlag(Working on Linux), WPS ( office software), Yongyou(Enterprise), KINGDEE (Golden Butterfly in Chinese) ( Enterprise).

Only 2.3 million PCs were sold in India in 2003. See www.eetimes.com...
More that 13 million of PCs were sold in China in 2003. See biz.yahoo.com...

International trade in 2003
China topped 840B$ (import < export) in 2003. See: english.peopledaily.com.cn...
India: total of 154B$ (export 74B$, import: 80b$, import > export)in 2003. See: www.navhindtimes.com...

Speaking of the technology, Let's compare the super computer because Indians are always claiming India is the second IT country in the world.
China's homemade supercomputer listed as No. 14. But the fastest one used in India is No. 105. It was made by IBM. India's homemade one is listed as No. 258. Legend (now Lenova) built another more powerful one this year. It can be listed as No. 3 or No. 4. See www.top500.org...

Thanks for the large market scale and the recent progress in the technology, China is trying to set the international or national technology standards, such as TD_SCDMA, EVD, Wi-Fi. We know the standard can make more and easier money than the simple production.

Total revenue of Wipro(around 1.17B$) and Infosys (0.97B$) in 2003 = the half of Huawei (more than 4.5B$)or ZTE around 4.0b$)
Wipro and Infosys represents India's technology. AS I know Wipro is a conglomerates, not a pure tech company as Huawei and ZTE.

Even Indians claim India is a democratic country. But its corruption is worse than China. China government is treating the corruption issue very seriously in recent years. see
www.globalcorruptionreport.org...
Another research report said India's corruption is much worse than China too: straitstimes.asia1.com.sg...
Do you believe Democracy works in India?

Chinese culture is much more open than India��s. See the trouble That MacDonald��s, KFC and Coca Cola are suffering:
ipsnews.net...
edition.cnn.com...
See the Macdonads��s Business in China:
breaking.tcm.ie...

These two articles were written by the same foreign visitor (sounds like a biz man) after he visited both India and China in the same year (2000).
His view about India: berclo.net...
His impression about China: berclo.net...
He also described so-called Indian democracy in this article: berclo.net...
"India is said to be the world's largest democracy. There is no dispute about its size, one billion is large, but I don't think that a country whose major priorities in the last 50 years have favored a small minority at the expense of the majority can be called "a democracy". "

Life quality: (See the CIA links above)
Indian Infant mortality rate :
Total: 59.59 deaths/1,000 live births
Female: 58.93 deaths/1,000 live births (2003 est.)
Male: 60.23 deaths/1,000 live births

Chinese Infant mortality rate:
Total: 25.26 deaths/1,000 live births
Female: 25.65 deaths/1,000 live births (2003 est.)
Male: 24.91 deaths/1,000 live births

Indian Life expectancy at birth:
Total population: 63.62 years
Male: 62.92 years
Female: 64.37 years (2003 est.)

Chinese Life expectancy at birth:
Total population: 72.22 years
Male: 70.33 years
Female: 74.28 years (2003 est.)

Sports:
The long list of Chinese medal winners at Sydney 2000 Olympic Games: See: www.sportorganizer.com...
Let's congratulate to the only one Indian winner: See: www.sportorganizer.com...

AIDS
India has about 10 million HIV infected people. Indian Government admits 4.5 million as of August 2003. See; www.pbs.org...
China has more than one million as reported by BBC: See: news.bbc.co.uk...

46% of general population in Bombay carry an active sexually transmitted disease (the greatest risk factor for HIV spread). Do you believe it? See: www.globalchange.com...]http://www.globalchange.com/indi.htm

Aid from outside:
China got aid from Soviet Union between late 50s to the beginning of t 60s. After that China develops on itself. India has been aided by both western countries and Soviet Union for a long time. See the link:
www.usaid.gov...
You cannot imagine, What should India be without this aids.
China has been helping many other countries too. That's why most of Africa countries like China so much.

Religion Issues in India: edition.cnn.com...

Foreign reserve and the external debt:
India's forex reserve < external debt
India has 100B$ reserve, See: www.indiadaily.com...
and India has more than 112B$ in debt in the end of 2003. See: www.finmin.nic.in...
China has more than 400B$ reserve. See: www.china.org.cn...
China has 160B$ external debt. Reserve >> debt


Some more links:
India asks how its economy can catch up with China's
www.forbes.com...

India Versus Chin-- Was written by some Indians
www.samachar.com...

Can India Catch-Up With China? -- Was written by some Indians
www.indiadefence.com...

The Population Bomb that can devastate India, actually it is a comparison between India and China
www.india-watch.com...

Can India catch up with China?
www.flonnet.com...

Can India Overtake China ? -- The famous article saying India will overtake China
www.alternatives.ca...

Data show that China developed much faster than India even before China's reform. India was much better than China before the Chinese Communist Party took power. But China's GDP caught up India in 70s last century.
GDP Per capita ( I believe it is based on PPP)
Country...1820....1870....1913....1950....1973...1998
China.......600......530......552......439......839....3,117
India........533......533......673......619......853....1,746
www.eh.net...
www.eco.rug.nl...]http://www.eco.rug.nl/~Maddison/ (more details)

India's economic grows at average 6% GDP vs. China's grows at 9% for last 2 decades.
India has 2 times faster population grow that the same time(1.7 vs. China 0.8%).
devdata.worldbank.org...=China&PTYPE=CP
devdata.worldbank.org...=India&PTYPE=CP

It's a sure sign that other countries are catching up to the US when it's no longer the chief target of competition.