Ukraine attacks with chemicals, destroys schools and hospitals and kills unarmed citizens (News)

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The incivility stops here.

Further aspersions upon members of ATS will result in a postban.

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a reply to: Xcathdra

If you guys find the actions of the Ukraine government in the wrong then please explain to me the difference between Ukraine's government and Syria's government, as the 2 situations are comparable.

Ukraine was never an official country and especially on boundaries created after 1991. That western bulge near Poland and Hungary was what Ukraine was for centuries. The "Super Stock" of Galicia can take that portion and "get lost" for ever. All this problem arising is due to the Fascists wanting to re surge their agenda of hatred towards Russia and hence they deserve to be marginalized and put under the boot.

Syria is under attack from the terrorist Al Queda, ISIS, Talibian type elements. Once such elements take hold of a society then common family person just gets subdued and follows their orders at the threat to life of them and their families. Most of the fighters for Free Syrian Army are from outside recruits of AQ and ISIS. Common Syrian man was fairly at peace with Assad. They wanted some more freedoms and rights and Assad is willing to provide them. But the nose of the West and involvement of terrorists is making a fair dialogue very difficult for Syrian people to better their futures.

Putin is pissing people off in his own government, who want him to send Russian forces into Ukraine.
Putin is pissing people off who have ended up the sanctions list.
Putin is pissing people off with regards to the Russian media lying about events in Ukraine, to the extent protests were held in Moscow.

Sending army to hostile theatre is not as easy as planning a picnic for a long weekend. People can get pissed off but military will move only with full planning and purpose.

People on sanctions are pissed off? for not able to visit the US or West?? So much love for west then these people leave their posts and seek asylum in the Western capitals. Your argument is not worth discussing in the first place !!

Any small or meaningless protests can be held and more than 100 people gathered for mere $5K at $50 each. All such protests are a part of new NGO game that governments have started to play in the last 10 years or so. This is a part of psych ops played by CIA and other intelligence agencies around the world.

Putin made his own bed when he invaded Ukraine.

NATO made its own bed when it decided to create problems in Ukraine by supporting the Kiev Junta. Events to follow WILL prove this fact.

Even now Putin is trying to distance himself even more from Ukraine by telling Obama he wants to repair ties between the 2 countries.

Diplomatic talk and compliments on some annual occasion is one thing and real actions are other, both Kremlin and WH know this. Another argument that does not deserve any further discussion.

Btw, so far only 2-3 tanks, some automatic rifles etc. have shown up on the side of Pro-Russia separatists. Once Russia starts to provide real help then Kiev Junta will find it very tough to handle the events. Better for them to take their little portion on the west of the map and "get lost" from the Russian sphere for ever...............otherwise Kiev Junta and their types will be crushed and oppressed for time to come. Better to live free than under the boot like during the Soviet times.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Russians were asked to give up / donate to Crimea. From taking vacations in Crimea to donating pay / contributions. Apparently Russians are not happy that its an ongoing issue, with the woman in the article wanting to know why she should have to pay from Crimea.

Russians giving up ONE day's pay is still much better than

Old Americans giving up their Social Security and Life Savings to feed the DEBT that US Fascist government built up to feed the defense industries and overspending habits of bankers and other elites.

Again Old Frail and REAL Americans who built the US in 20th century are being forced to sacrifice their Social Security funds and medical aid benefits. EVILNESS !!

a reply to: stanislas

I never said Russian media was unbiased. They obviously would be biased. I said your example of unbiased media was false and it is. Just because a reporter spoke to the other side does not make it unbiased. Look up the word in the dictionary.

Your def...

not having or showing an unfair tendency to believe that some people, ideas, etc., are better than others : not biased

www.merriam-webster.com...

By showing and talking to the other side it shows they are unbiased, because if they were biased they wouldn't go through the trouble of talking to the other side.

So I guess your definition isn't the same as the one posted above.

a reply to: victor7

NATO made its own bed when it decided to create problems in Ukraine by supporting the Kiev Junta. Events to follow WILL prove this fact.

And what problems has NATO started in Ukraine?

Btw, so far only 2-3 tanks, some automatic rifles etc. have shown up on the side of Pro-Russia separatists.

Really...



bigstory.ap.org...

I guess those are just pixie sticks they have?

Kiev mytilitary bombarding russian speaking civilians in Lugansk link

Lots of dead and injuries - video included in the link above.

a reply to: Ploutonas

Back to DefenceNet? Oh, well. If you promise me that there is some real, objective news, clearly showing what you claim, I'm willing to go look.

However,

Kiev mytilitary bombarding russian speaking civilians in Lugansk

Is the bombardment sparing non-Russian speaking civilians? That would be smart munitions indeed. Secondly, is the Ukrainian army getting any fire from that city?

I gave the basic info from it (the title from the article), thats what I do, now if you want more, u can search alternatives.

here is some alternatives, a fast google search link

This is from RT (u hate it) link

29 March 2014 BBC

Moscow has no intention of sending troops into Ukraine, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has said.

In an interview with state TV channel Rossiya 1 on Saturday, Mr Lavrov said: "We have absolutely no intention of - or interest in - crossing Ukraine's borders."

He added that Russia was ready to protect "the rights of Russians and Russian-speaking people in Ukraine, using all available political, diplomatic and legal means"

www.bbc.com...

Less than three weeks later, on April 17, the Washington Post published an article containing this:

In early March, Putin denied that the well-equipped troops operating on Ukraine’s Crimean Peninsula and wearing green uniforms without insignia were Russian. Anyone could buy those uniforms, he said. On Thursday, when asked about the soldiers widely known as the green men, Putin acknowledged that they were Russian.

Russia's "Little Green Men."

If you don't have an opinion, I do. The Russian press and government has been shown to be wildly untruthful concerning the Ukraine invasion. Yet you provide me with two links, one from Russian television RT, and one from Russian press, Tass. Are you thinking that this will be persuasive to any reasonable person?

The only thing I can think of which might be as false and dishonest is our president's Obamacare promise. But it took a little longer for the press to call him on it.

a reply to: stanislas

Maybe you should read posts completely before opening your mouth.

What part of the word possibility do you just not understand? What is it with people like you? Your so desperate to latch onto anything and spin it to turn it into something its not. As has been stated that mentality died when the Soviet Union did. Educate yourself would you please and understand the days of blindly believing what comes out of Putin's mouth without challenge are over with.

You and the others really need to spend more time refuting facts and less time attacking everything else. All that does is push you further under the water.

As I pointed out several times before - To those who are not capable of reading please find someone who can translate for you so you can understand my post and the info contained -


Pro-Russia Rebels Prepare Last Stand in East Ukraine - Separatist Leaders Say Evacuation From Slovyansk Was Strategic

Ukraine neared a final showdown with pro-Russia rebels on Sunday, after Kiev forced insurgents to retreat to the last major city they control and Moscow showed no signs of intervening to help them.

On Sunday, Ukraine said it plans to lay siege to Donetsk, a regional capital of one million residents that is the political and economic center of eastern Ukraine, and pursue rebels who fled there from Slovyansk, which had been the base of rebel military resistance in the region until government forces recaptured it over the weekend.

So the rebels are being routed and Kiev is closing in on the last stronghold of the Rebels. Gee, I wonder what possible motive the rebels have to lie about the use of chemical weapons.

Relations between the rebels and Putin - As I stated before -

A fight for the city is fraught with risk for both Moscow and Kiev, which for now has gained the upper hand against rebels, but done so without the open intervention of Russia. As rebels are routed by Ukraine's military, pressure has been growing inside Russia for President Vladimir Putin to order such an intervention.

"I'm very disappointed," said Fedor Berezin, rebel deputy defense minister, of Moscow's lack of action. "That means it will be a long and bloody war until we all die valiantly on the barricades."

The separatists have been counting on the Kremlin's military backing, emboldened by Russia's swift annexation of Crimea this year, after a pro-Western revolution in Kiev had repudiated the previous regime's alliance with Moscow.

Wait a minute.. The reason Putin gave to justify his invasion of Ukraine and annexation of Crimea was because of attacks on Ethnic Russians... no no.. he said it was because people were being denied the ability to govern themselves. Or was it because they were not allowed to vote for independeance.. no they could do that and did so 2 times prior... Then it was because the collapse of the Soviet Union was illegal... and now -Putins new lie -

Mr. Putin said the Crimea move was driven in part by concerns about Ukraine joining the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and depriving the Russian Black Sea Fleet of its Crimean base.

To those who claim Putin is not involved in what's going on in East and South Ukraine -

But despite providing Donetsk separatists with logistical support, weapons and fighters, along with blanket anti-Kiev coverage on Russian state television, the Kremlin appears to have stepped back from overt military action in Ukraine, at least for now.

For now, Moscow appears to be backing away from any suggestions that it might support rebels, instead warning Kiev that it risks alienating a large part of its population.

Apparently the only "ethnic Russians" that mattered to Putin reside in Crimea. And only then they mattered solely so he could justify an illegal invasion and annexation of Crimea. Putin lied about the attacks on "Ethnic Russians", using them as a pawn for his own goals.

He then tried in in East and South Ukraine, where it blew up in his face. It must have been because of the 23 lies Putin used prior to justify going into Crimea. As I stated, the cold war is over, Russia is not a superpower any more and those in the world are not going to take Vlads word for it without confirming he's telling the truth, which thus far he has not done.

What about those he abandoned in East and South Ukraine - Ashes in the wind

In comments broadcast on state television on Saturday, a senior Russian diplomat appeared to suggest that Moscow doesn't think the separatists will be able to hold out for long.

"I think the hot phase [of the fighting] will last only a matter of weeks," said Konstantin Dolgov, Russia's chief human-rights ambassador. Reconciliation in the war-torn regions, he warned, "will take years."

Moscow has just signaled they are done in Ukraine. The Pro Russian forces are on their own with no support coming from Russia.

As with the debates in the past about Syria and Iran and possible war there, Russia's involvement only reaches the level of their interests in the region.

Put has manipulated and lied to the "Ethnic Russians" in order to secure Crimea and nothing more, and by extension lied to the world when giving justifications for his actions, up to and including disclosing that non insignia soldiers were in fact Russian and were not part of the treaty troop levels, as some in this thread like to lie about and claim.

There you have it... The reason for the claim of chemical weapons is based on desperation of the rebels in a last ditch attempt to force Russian intervention, which is not coming. But hey, form your own opinion.. Just be aware of your surroundings while listening to Putin's lies. It might just prevent you from blindly walking over the cliff edge with the rest of the lemmings.

a reply to: Xcathdra

You guys are crazy about Putin. You are committing a grave mistake thinking that Putin is doing anything other than what most Russians want.

The pogrom against ethnic Russians in Ukraine is what Doctor ordered to rally Russians and solidify Russian identity and nationalism.

You people forget that Russians have been very ambivalent about the West since the fall of the USSR. Russians have been West leaning.

The events of Ukraine where ethnic Russians and in general Russian interests are being trampled are great eye-opener for Russian people.

Ukraine has no means militarily to defeat Russia. It is possible that Putin wants to withdraw tactically at this time. There is nothing more to Ukraine's current victories than that. Ethnic Russians migrating to Russia is positive for Russia as Russia faces a declining population. The economy of East Ukraine is sabotaged by Kiev more than Russia. It will be interesting to watch one more parasite clinging to EU for blood. Ukraine can no longer look to Russia for money.

this is old and posted in past thread but many seem to forget.

The State Department and the NY Times got caught red-handed with faked evidence of Russian aggression in East Ukraine. But the story is now one of a double and maybe a triple hoax.

One might become curious at the US repeatedly claiming that Russian troops and agents were the tip of the spear on the East Ukraine civic building takeovers. Why? Because day after day the charges went on and on without any proof being put on the table.

Now mind you, this is after we have had several big intercept releases, which we assume were from Russian intelligence, starting with Victoria Nuland and her potty mouth discussing who was going to be in the post-coup government in Kiev. This is the same Ms. Nudlemann that was shoehorned into a top level State Dept. job some years ago with only four years of college and no diplomatic experience. It is the kind of placement that would catch the eye of counter-intelligence people of someone being planted.

What made her position so strange is that she had started as an assistant to Dick Cheney, so her qualifications were family and Israel Lobby political connections. That she was kept over from the Bush thugs by Obama is still mind boggling, when all the NeoCons should have been cleaned out in the first day security sweep.

And then we had the EU's Catherine Ashton and the Latvia Foreign Minister talking about the Maidan coup killings, and how everyone knew who had done it, and how nonchalant Ashton was about that news. Those were major intelligence coups by the Russians to use on YouTube to stake out who the real aggressors were in Ukraine.
The West had their controlled corporate media to help them publicize the endless charges above, using the old tactic of "the offense is the best defense." Accuse your opponent with what you are doing, because who said it first always stays imprinted in the public's mind. But we were expecting some payback from NSA and CIA via releasing some intercepts of their own to show the Russians being caught red-handed.
General Breedlove added his failed spin attempt to this sad record of deception on the American people by releasing outdated satellite-photo "proof" of the Russian offensive build-up on Ukraine's borders, taken a year ago. It was shot down in flames by the Russians, without an S400 being needed.

The Russians would have expected to be blamed for the East Ukraine city takeovers after Crimea, which was a totally different situation, as the troops were already based there with agreements to reinforce in times of threats. So it would not have made sense for the Russians to ruin the clean record they had hitting the "Crimean invasion" slow-ball hype out of the ball park.

The West failed miserably trying to pound that message onto the World public. And the 97% vote count on the referendum put the nails in the coffin of that attempt.

A pattern emerged of the State Department making charges and the Russians denying. This kept on until we were wondering if someone was trying to bore us all to death. If the US had proof of Russians on the ground running the protest movement, why was Kerry not putting it out in a Cuban Missile crisis fashion with some updated version of U2 spy plane photos of Soviet missiles there? We could think of nothing to justify holding it except... they didn't really have anything.
It seems that things came to a head when the Russian Foreign Ministry got tired of making endless denials. Lavrov threw the gauntlet down and demanded the US show its proof. And therein is where the "mis-attributed photo" psyops was born out of need to cover the lies.
YouTube videos and photos on the East Ukraine protests were all over the Internet and we knew that payroll duty Intel workers would be sifting through them carefully with orders to "find us some Russians." They didn't. So now time to fake some. They found a photo of freelance photographer Maxim Dondyuk... a bunch of gnarly-looking militia guys all decked out in combat fatigues and ready-to-do-business gear, including their weapons. Other photos were found in the Ukraine shots with some of the same faces. The question then was what to do with them.

"We see in the photos that have been again in international media, on Twitter, publicly available, is that there are individuals who visibly appear to be tied to Russia. We've said that publicly a countless number of times," Jen Psaki, State Dept spokeswoman said.

And the answer was someone decided to add a caption to Dondyuk's photo that said, "Group photo taken in Russia." The other photos they had from the protests with some of the same faces, they just circled and presented them with the "Russian" photo as the evidence.

We think some State Department Intel dummies did that. Yes, State does have its own intelligence division, one that is not highly respected for being over-paid and under worked. Their mistake was that the caption was too pat. No really good psyops guy would have done that.

The State Department circulated this to all those involved in pandering the charges, to make them feel they were on solid ground that the meanie Russians were lying. Because the State Department is filled with dual-Israeli citizens, they like to show they can be valuable in a jam, so they got the photos over to the Israel Lobby's favorite newspaper for planting stories -- other than the Wall Street Journal -- the New York Times.

They participated in the scam by not making sure the photo was real, as it was being used as proof the Russians were lying. No major paper would forget to run down the photo, or they would not have run the story. The Times did it because someone they are close to asked them to.

The hoax was up when Mr. Dondyuk saw his mis-attributed photo and put a call into the NY Times pronto. "It was taken in Slavyansk [Ukraine]," he told NYT over the phone. "Nobody asked my permission to use it." So now it was damage control time, and big outfits like this are not without some experience in that department.

The standard spin, when caught, is to admit that a mistake was made and then never say anything other than that. They will take the sloppiness hit, even being laughed at by other media, but they don't want to be grilled on whether they orchestrated the hoax.

But here are more clues, like the duplicitous language used by Jen Paski, "individuals who visibly 'appear' to be tied to Russia." The key word is "appear". They knew when they put this out that it would be taken by the public as "proof", but she did not say that it proved they were Russians. The language used was carefully crafted for deniability if needed.

That folks, is run of the mill wordplay deception that governments run on their publics all the time. But what makes this evil, and an attack on the American people by its own government, is that this deception was being used to cover US aggression by framing the Russians so that the people would be primed to support military action, if the US goes that route.

It was a violation of the oath of office that the top people take... "to defend the country against all enemies, foreign and domestic." These people, who concocted this faked photo story and all their other orchestrated aggressions to pin them on the Russians, are exactly why those words "domestic enemies" were put in the oath.

continued-

They crossed over the oath red line and became our enemies. Nuland, Cheney... there is a long list. It is time for others who took that oath to defend us from these domestic enemies. They have attacked us with lies in an escalating war situation. They are not fit to serve. On the contrary... maybe they should be POWs.

Jim W. Dean
PressTV
Tue, 29 Apr 2014 18:02 CDT

www.presstv.ir... ssia-forces/

a reply to: GargIndia

Putin should provide more support and weapons to the separatists. There is no need to attack or invade Ukraine.

Best would be that Russian troops can arrive in the S-E regions with white flags on the vehicles to help maintain peace and stability in the region.

The real matters should be discussed verbally not with guns and bomb shells. That is good for both Kiev and S-E region folks.

War fighting and infrastructure bombing suits only the "loser lunatics" who get brainwashed by the "Western nose poking" in their country's matters.

a reply to: letscit

Putin admitted, as early as April that Russia had sent in soldiers disguised in plain green uniforms. That was reported by the Washington Post. See my post earlier on this page. The Russian soldiers went in early and tried to hide the fact. Putin said so. Repeat it over and over to yourself.

Well, I have to give you some credit. PressTV, the Iranian state-run news outlet, is a little different from the Russian state-run news media. And as an interesting note, the article was written by a guy from Veterans Today.

Will people please stop throwing up Russian news sources to show the Russians are good guys?

Looks like Crimea free militants got new toys! link

I give you the headline only - Russia strengthens air forces in the Crimea with Su-27SM3 and Su-30M3

originally posted by: GargIndia
You guys are crazy about Putin. You are committing a grave mistake thinking that Putin is doing anything other than what most Russians want.

Grave mistake? LOLOLOL Please. The grave mistake was made by Putin. The continuation of that grave mistake is being committed by people, like yourself, who are so amped up in trying to defend Putin that you are willing to accept whatever you are told regardless of truth and facts.

The flaw in your statement is to assume the Russian people are being given ALL of the FACTS about what occurred. To date, including protests in Russia condemning the Russian government and media for reporting lies to justify action in Ukraine, they have not. So no, Putin is not doing what the Russian people want. Putin is doing what he wants while misleading the Russian people in an effort to drum up support based on lies.

originally posted by: GargIndia
The pogrom against ethnic Russians in Ukraine is what Doctor ordered to rally Russians and solidify Russian identity and nationalism.

So again, Putin lied to the Russian people in an effort to mislead them and support an illegal invasion of Ukraine. There is no excuse for that action.

originally posted by: GargIndia
You people forget that Russians have been very ambivalent about the West since the fall of the USSR. Russians have been West leaning.

West leaning so long as its within the box established by Putin. The propaganda coming out of Russian State Media is giving a false image of world events SOLELY to influence Russian citizens into believing a false narrative created by Putin.

originally posted by: GargIndia
The events of Ukraine where ethnic Russians and in general Russian interests are being trampled are great eye-opener for Russian people.

The arrogance and ignorance in this statement is amazing. Ukraine is a sovereign country and can run their affairs as they see fit. That means the Ukraine government decides, and Russia will have to learn to live with the disappointment. By ignoring the Ukraine government and people, Russia is trampling on the sovereignty and Ukrainian peoples interests. The fact you hold this viewpoint supports the argument you guys are extremely ignorant in terms of what's going on and are willing to only accept Russian events.

originally posted by: GargIndia
Ukraine has no means militarily to defeat Russia.

Incorrect - Any overt invasion won't be tolerated by many nations, including the US and Europe. That topic has been discussed when this mess began. Right now the West is attempting to work with Russia however allowing a Russian invasion to occur will represent a significant national security risk to Europe as a whole. Not to mention the whole UN Charter allowing a nation to defend itself, including the use of allies.

As has been stated many times before this is not the cold war, something Putin and his hard line supports MUST accept. Pretending that nations will not act because it is Russia is extremely ignorant and naïve. So much so that the mindset is as dangerous as war itself. Putin's self delusions are bad for Russia.

While a military is needed to conduct war, its not the only weapons available to countries. The Russian economy is teetering on recession, and that is a result of sanctions imposed on just individuals. The economic situation in Russia, should real sanctions be imposed on sectors of the economy, will cause havoc with Russian plans for "war".

Not to mention that while Putin is showcasing the "new" Russian army, he is hiding the fact that what is being show is a minority within the Russian military. The bulk of Russian forces are still using cold war material and doctrine.

originally posted by: GargIndia
It is possible that Putin wants to withdraw tactically at this time.

Apparently not all the Pro Russian / Pro Putin supporters got the memo. According to the pro Russians in this thread Putin nor Russia are involved in any way shape or forum in Ukraine. You should get with your classmates and borrow there notes. That way you guys wont be contradicting yourself.

As for withdrawal - Putin had no choice. The Russian economy is not as strong as Putin claimed it to be. The longer this drags out the more hits the Russian economy is going to take. What we see Putin doing is tucking tail while hoping like hell he can maintain control of the info coming into Russia. He has taken hits from supporters in Russia for not taking more aggressive steps.

In other words - Putin was playing both sides of the street and is close to getting hit from traffic in both directions.

By not supporting the Pro Russians in East / South Ukraine, they are not going to forgive him for throwing them to the wind. By not sending in the Russian military he is pissing off his hardline supporters in Russia. The Russian people are not happy about having to pay for Crimea. When the lies Putin told start to unwind, its going to be interesting to see if he survives politically.

originally posted by: GargIndia
There is nothing more to Ukraine's current victories than that. Ethnic Russians migrating to Russia is positive for Russia as Russia faces a declining population. The economy of East Ukraine is sabotaged by Kiev more than Russia. It will be interesting to watch one more parasite clinging to EU for blood. Ukraine can no longer look to Russia for money.

The significance of Ukraine's victories in those regions is apparently lost on you and Russia. What we are seeing is the Ukraine government fighting a proxy war with Russia and winning, without outside assistance.

It underlines the fact that the reason Putin gave were based on lies. It exposes how desperate the Pro Russians are.

Most importantly, it showcases that Russian support in those regions is more along the lines of a vocal minority. I say this because of the arguments people have made about the number who claim to be Russian in those areas. If those numbers are true then why is Ukraine facing half ass "self defense forces / Pro Russian forces"? Should the "entire ethnic Russian population in Ukraine" be more than enough to hold of Ukraine?

Apparently those claims by Putin and the Pro Russians was yet another lie.

a reply to: letscit

Russia was requested by the UN, several times, to produce evidence supporting their claims in Ukraine. Russia failed to do so. Russia claimed the former President sent a letter requesting Russian assistance. The UN requested the letter and Russia could not produce it, and to this day still has not produced it.

The UN investigations into the claims made by Russia regardless found no evidence of what Russia claimed. What they did find was Russian manipulation in the region to stoke ethnic tensions. The information they were able tog et about the illegal elections in Crimea spoke volumes and Russia's own Presidential council released the fact that the election results were a sham and were made up by Russia.

Russian military units have been caught red handed in Crimea as well as South and East Ukraine. Try as you might Putin has already confirmed this.

The United States has provided the evidence to support the claims made. Russia on the other hand has not supported theirs. Maybe you can tell us what the proper amount of time is, from a diplomatic aspect, appropriate from when Russia makes a claim, when the UN requests several times to produce that info to the UN for review, only to have Russia not turn anything in.

You can try and make all the false claims you want against the US government but the fact remains that you yourself have failed to provide evidence to support your claims. Get some notes from a classmate and come back and work on that one.

This entire mess would never have occurred if Putin kept his arrogance in check with the fact the cold war is over with and he is not the leader of the Soviet Union. Putin is a liar who is living in a time frame that is not consistent with his mentality. If his head gets any bigger from his inflated Ego he is going to look like a fugitive from Easter island.

I enjoyed the remainder of your post, although it needs to be moved into the science fiction section of this site. When you post in that section you will be able to review all the Russian and PressTV lies to date as well.

Got any facts?

a reply to: victor7

Then there would be no issues with countries continuing to supply weapons and assistance to the rebels trying to overthrow the Syrian government right?

any chance you can explain your double standard on rebels forces?