The Subconscious Is My Spirituality

a reply to: BlueMule



perhaps

a reply to: TheJourney

it's a pinch

the pinnacle of the mountain is small, and the whole earth moves below it

subconscious, conscious, they are peaks, but the whole thing moves below them

there definitely is a surrendering of the mind to the wisdom of our source of being

do not look to give up your conscious self, but learn to see it for what it is, an emergent being out of the fertile soil of life and death

it is an amalgam of sensory input, perceptions and thought formations and reflections, but how would we be human without it? it is needed in the process of developing this human organism

awareness that brings forth life is not this emergent being, nor the subconscious realms, those are all tireless workers

I am that I am, and in this awareness becomes whatever is emerging, sprouting, coming to be, but only for a short time

originally posted by: preludefanguy
a reply to: TheJourney

it's a pinch

the pinnacle of the mountain is small, and the whole earth moves below it

subconscious, conscious, they are peaks, but the whole thing moves below them

there definitely is a surrendering of the mind to the wisdom of our source of being

do not look to give up your conscious self, but learn to see it for what it is, an emergent being out of the fertile soil of life and death

it is an amalgam of sensory input, perceptions and thought formations and reflections, but how would we be human without it? it is needed in the process of developing this human organism

awareness that brings forth life is not this emergent being, nor the subconscious realms, those are all tireless workers

I am that I am, and in this awareness becomes whatever is emerging, sprouting, coming to be, but only for a short time

Pristine wisdom dear friend, the amalgamation of the 5 aggregates known as the human organism is truly an awareness of that which is created, that which is emerging. What may you say is the true nature beyond the congregation of mental streams of perceptions and thought formations?

originally posted by: preludefanguy
a reply to: BlueMule

Judgemental words my friend.

The door is always open, no matter the person who peeks in from the other side. Who were you before your mystical experiences ? Who are you now ?

Entitlement is only for those who imagine there to be a seat to be won in the first place. No one is entitled... All is given freely, to those that see and those that don't.

Truly wondrous wisdom my brother! Your attainment invigorates me with excitement! To comprehend such understanding is truly worthy of the name Bodhisattva. Blessings dear brother!

a reply to: EviLCHiMP

when one speaks of something having nature, the something has to be, in order for it to have a nature

you have the world, and you have the forms in the world, when one is in delusion, one sees reflections and shadows of the form, when one is awakening, one sees the emptiness in all things, from where they come, and then comes seeing things just as they are, without mental fermentations latched onto them

but if you must think of the nature of 'source', think of it as a stream, or an ocean, like a fluid dream, and when there is a color, a noise, a sound, a meeting, then there is a point of consciousness to take hold and spring up into being, but the whole thing is just awareness, and awareness passes through all, inhabits all, is aware of all becoming

what we have here as a human, is the program working, action happening, and there is a space between the thoughts of your mind where the chance for true free will to happen, otherwise one is stuck in a continuous cycle of cause and effect, no free will

a reply to: EviLCHiMP

blessings to you brother, may you always be well and happy

originally posted by: preludefanguy
a reply to: EviLCHiMP

when one speaks of something having nature, the something has to be, in order for it to have a nature

you have the world, and you have the forms in the world, when one is in delusion, one sees reflections and shadows of the form, when one is awakening, one sees the emptiness in all things, from where they come, and then comes seeing things just as they are, without mental fermentations latched onto them

but if you must think of the nature of 'source', think of it as a stream, or an ocean, like a fluid dream, and when there is a color, a noise, a sound, a meeting, then there is a point of consciousness to take hold and spring up into being, but the whole thing is just awareness, and awareness passes through all, inhabits all, is aware of all becoming

what we have here as a human, is the program working, action happening, and there is a space between the thoughts of your mind where the chance for true free will to happen, otherwise one is stuck in a continuous cycle of cause and effect, no free will

Well said! Praise be to your understanding of the most profound Dharma! What would you liken Nirvana to?

Magnificent.

a reply to: EviLCHiMP

a band who produced rock music that many loved...



if you talking about nirvana as a human being can experience it, it is bringing back the knowledge of it into your existence by reflecting itself through your actions; actions that lead to less suffering caused from desire, delusion, and promoting happiness within yourself and others around you, there is still bodily pain though, so it doesn't mean you're all blissed out, you're just a mature open hearted open minded human being, until you die

if you are talking about entering into a state of awareness where there is no thing... then it is just that, nothing, nothing to be, nothing to do, relaxation, happiness, or bliss don't really exist, there is just nothing, like a reverberating echo of emptiness, but it is not emptiness

but as a human, all states are transient, and so this state is transient as well, one comes back from it and here you find yourself living your life

as a human we deal with symbols, with actions, and as a mature awoken human, we know that all these things can be viewed as tools to master and to put down when they are not to be used for the better of all

after death... well, it seems to be the practice of intention for awareness, intention not to get trapped by the lights, noises of the things coming to be, and let them flow away, like the pain we have in life, let it them flow away down the river, so you can be at rest in no-thing, and in this way, relieving the 'pinch' that we currently find ourselves in

originally posted by: preludefanguy
a reply to: EviLCHiMP

a band who produced rock music that many loved...

if you talking about nirvana as a human being can experience it, it is bringing back the knowledge of it into your existence by reflecting itself through your actions; actions that lead to less suffering caused from desire, delusion, and promoting happiness within yourself and others around you, there is still bodily pain though, so it doesn't mean you're all blissed out, you're just a mature open hearted open minded human being, until you die

if you are talking about entering into a state of awareness where there is no thing... then it is just that, nothing, nothing to be, nothing to do, relaxation, happiness, or bliss don't really exist, there is just nothing, like a reverberating echo of emptiness, but it is not emptiness

but as a human, all states are transient, and so this state is transient as well, one comes back from it and here you find yourself living your life

as a human we deal with symbols, with actions, and as a mature awoken human, we know that all these things can be viewed as tools to master and to put down when they are not to be used for the better of all

after death... well, it seems to be the practice of intention for awareness, intention not to get trapped by the lights, noises of the things coming to be, and let them flow away, like the pain we have in life, let it them flow away down the river, so you can be at rest in no-thing, and in this way, relieving the 'pinch' that we currently find ourselves in

Truly it is as you say. It's an honor to exchange words with you fellow traveler of the path.

originally posted by: preludefanguy
a reply to: BlueMule

perhaps

OK, this is sticking in my craw. I want to get something off my chest.

Midicon and I have crossed foils elsewhere on ATS. When he made me feel insulted and judged, I pointed it out to him, tackfully, without returning the insult, and he agreed. When he apologized, I accepted.

And then, as if that was not enough, YOU stepped in and made me feel judged.

It's for Midicon to decide if I was overly harsh with him, or if I was simply being honest about my feelings in a tactful way. Not you, and not anyone else. If he feels slighted, I invite him to come and get it off his chest, as I am doing with you.

a reply to: BlueMule

my friend, I am not judging you, I am simply pointing out a stumbling block, and even our enemies we should invite with open arms to what truth is, it is their option to hear or to turn away

I have no doubt that spirit flows through you, and that you know what you know because of your experiences, in fact I have admired many of your posts as you speak from your heart

but be careful not to let ego in through the back door, it can be very tricky, very tricky indeed... as it has done just that very thing with me, when I thought I had 'transcended' it

and be humble enough to know when there is still work to be done, while we are here, there is work to be done

a reply to: EviLCHiMP

thank you sir, I am delighted to speak with you as well

"spiritual friendship is the whole of the spiritual life"

a reply to: preludefanguy

Sir, what transpired between Midicon and I is between Midicon and I. I don't consider him my enemy at all, and I don't repress my feelings. And my feeling is this. I am speaking from my heart: Mind your own business.

You said it yourself, it's his option to stay out of threads like this. I didn't prompt him to.

I am no better than him, he is no better than me, and you are not better than either of us. No one is better or worse than anyone - that is humility.

It's not your place to point out a stumbling block. It's my place to trip and fall over it. Sometimes where you fall is where you find the gold.

a reply to: BlueMule

it was just an analogy, I don't believe he is your enemy

when you speak of entitlement, you are speaking to a position held by someone that others do not have

I do not view myself better than you, perhaps this craw that is sticking in you is a thorn that you have yet to pull out

as you are speaking from your heart now, as was I when I mentioned what I mentioned

so if you are seeking equality in freedom of speech and freedom of expressing feelings, then let what I said go, because then you are showing me equality as you would like to see it done to you, I have already let what you said go, and never once held on to it

I do not wish to stoke the fire burning between us, we could just sit down and enjoy some marsh mellows while it burns out

a reply to: BlueMule

I do not feel slighted in any way. My choice of the word atonement was a poor one...a simple apology would perhaps have sufficed. I was really just saying something I have been thinking for some time. I did try and give something back by mentioning the relevance of a quote you had sent.
I would like to give something positive to others but I have to find a way of expressing myself. It is easy for me to write in jaunty little rhyme but I would much rather write synaesthetic poetry. Words that express the thing in itself. I may not have the talent though.

Anyway...the only slight has been from me to myself.

Midicon.

a reply to: TheJourney

The subconscious is an interesting idea, and I fear not too many challenge it or consider its properties and methods, as it has since become a virtual dogma within psychology.

I agree that the subconscious is the source of our spirituality, but an assertion like that leads a philosopher to ponder further: what is a subconscious?

As is usual within psychology and spiritual circles, there is no entity as such, no particular process, no subconscious qua subconscious, that we can give the name to, and it remains forever as an idealization made in abstracto. In that vein, since there is no entity or substance we can call a "subconscious", we risk reducing our spirituality to non-existence and metaphor, and in the process, risk marginalizing the concrete entities and processes that do afford us our spirituality.

I do not believe there is any actual contrast between a conscious and a subconscious, and that which is in our focal awareness is the exact same as that which is not in our focal awareness, because we are unable to assume that what we focus on possesses any contrasting qualities with what we do not focus on.

Perhaps spirituality is when the two seemingly opposing consciousnesses become no longer opposed, and the one entity that affords us these focal and non-focal perspectives can finally be reconciled rather than torn apart at our mental operating tables.

originally posted by: Aphorism
I agree that the subconscious is the source of our spirituality, but an assertion like that leads a philosopher to ponder further: what is a subconscious?

While philosophers sit and ponder, brave mystics risk their sanity to dive into the unconscious and explore. I'm speaking from experience, not belief.

"The schizophrenic is drowning in the same waters in which the mystic swims with delight."

-Joseph Campbell

By exploring, the mystic gradually becomes intimately aware of the contents of the personal unconscious, and more is revealed of the layer of images and motifs that comprise the collective unconscious. That is how the slow and painful process of integration is begun. This process leads to the realization of the self as a psychic reality greater than the ego, a realization that philosophers can only guess about.

a reply to: BlueMule

Addicts also risk their sanity in exploring mystical experiences. I imagine they also come to the same conclusions as the mystic, who is basically an addict in a sanctimonious dress.

Of course, their conclusions, like the mystic, can find no bearing outside of their own egoistic desires, which are about as commonplace as any form of greed.

a reply to: Aphorism

I'm sure you can imagine quite a bit as you indulge in armchair criticism.

"As someone who has made his own modest efforts in this area, let me assure you, that when a person goes into solitude and trains himself in meditation for 15 or 18 hours a day, for months or years at a time, in silence, doing nothing else—not talking, not reading, not writing—just making a sustained moment to moment effort to merely observe the contents of consciousness and to not get lost in thought, he experiences things that most scientists and artists are not likely to have experienced, unless they have made precisely the same efforts at introspection.

And these experiences have a lot to say about the plasticity of the human mind and about the possibilities of human happiness.

So, apart from just commending these phenomena to your attention, I’d like to point out that, as atheists, our neglect of this area of human experience puts us at a rhetorical disadvantage. Because millions of people have had these experiences, and many millions more have had glimmers of them, and we, as atheists, ignore such phenomena, almost in principle, because of their religious associations—and yet these experiences often constitute the most important and transformative moments in a person’s life.

Not recognizing that such experiences are possible or important can make us appear less wise even than our craziest religious opponents." -Sam Harris

And, as someone else who has made his own modest efforts in this area, let me assure you he is right. The benefits of meditation abound. Meditation is, of course, a mystical or 'contemplative' technique. The altered states of consciousness which meditation induces are a passage to the unconscious; to happiness; to inner alchemy.

And he is right about another thing. Armchair critics who fail to recognize that mystical experiences are possible or important do indeed appear foolish. Sometimes, these fools come around and help Luke out in the end. Sometimes, they don't.



STFU Han, and fly. You don't know squat. But if you're lucky, you will.