Son Says He’s an Atheist and Doesn’t Want a Bar Mitzvah

originally posted by: OptimusSubprime
a reply to: windword

Well, as a Christian I would have to say that it makes little difference... Jews and Atheists are destined for the same eternal condemnation because neither believe on the LORD Jesus Christ. One believes in a false god, while the other believes in no god.

You're just all sunshine and daisies, aren't you? And you wonder why we're not tripping over each other in a mad scramble to join your Rockefeller Club.

a reply to: the owlbear

It was shut down. Made too much sense.

And there ya go! You have be careful of that! To be sure, there are those who will try to drown you in logical nonsense.

a reply to: Cuervo


I was going to say the same thing. Someone should explain to the young man that is may be nonsense, but it's THEIR nonsense. There are atheist rabbis. Maybe the boy could talk to them too.

a reply to: windword

I would think this young boy to be raised into a young man where he can make his own decisions on life and the hereafter.

And these parents are mad because why? Sounds like he was being molded into what THEY expected and how THEY want, WHERE they wanted....and in the way THEY preferred.

I'd be pretty impressed my kid could even MAKE that assumption or determination at his age.....
and we all know kids change their mind.

And perhaps so will he later on.

a reply to: windword

Interesting... Just interesting. And I'm sure it's an experience he'll never forget. Whether or not that is a good thing remains to be seen.

"How important are religious celebrations and rites in a child's life?"

I would put everything from going to the dentist to sleeping in bed on a list of things that are more important than religious celebrations or rites in a child's life. Though it might be fun to have him go through all of the basic religious rites so that he can put religious rites and celebrations into their proper context.

It would be challenging to explain to him how all of these different religions are fighting over whose idea of a deity is the right one, though the correct answer is that it doesn't matter if there is a deity or not; that there is no conclusive evidence one way or the other, and that the winner is the one who invariably is willing to pay the highest price for being right.

Other interesting things to explain to a twelve year old would be that, similarly, politics is just a fight over who is right rather than focusing on issues that have dramatic consequences for every individual regardless of their particular political identity. But I digress...

a reply to: windword

So, what would you do? What's your advice? How important are religious celebrations and rites in a child's life?

In Judaism, it's all about tradition.
So a bar mitzvah would be important.
Like 30 years ago when I was going to the local temple for a couple years, I was in the rabbi's adult Hebrew class and one day he decided to bring in his bar mitzvah students to give a demonstration of how they read Hebrew.
I had never seen any of them before, or since, for that matter.
The regular temple services had no relevance to them other than to go to one when they finished their classes, to put their Hebrew skills to work to read and say blessings.

My advice is to start them out at nine to go to some sort of Jewish summer camp, to get a since of belonging to a community bigger than themselves.

Personally, I believe religion to be a tradition in and of itself, but that's a bit off topic. "Rituals" or "Traditions" are exactly what they are.... mans interpretation of holiness (as far as religion goes). None of them, Christmas, Easter, Bar Mitzvah, praying toward Mecca, not eating pork, sacred cows... They're all just traditions of men. I believe we should remove the traditions and focus on the actual spiritual message behind the doctrines, which is the actual substance of any religion. However, on that note, I'd rather religion didn't exist at all and we come together to figure out who and what God really is; I have a feeling we've got it all wrong.

a reply to: windword

The kid cannot say that he is an atheist purely because it is unscientific to believe in God. These days there is a significant percentage of people who work jobs which have scientific relevance, who are also firm believers in one or another deity. Does he believe himself more of a scientist than these folks?

en.m.wikipedia.org...:Jewish_American_scientists

I used a faith relevant example here, but I imagine you could find other lists, for other faiths, and in other countries too!

Lets face it, if one wishes to turn his back on ones faith, then one ought to have a better, more well reasoned idea of WHY, than this, which one can pretty much debunk by examining the list above, which took about 1.2 seconds of searching to discover.

Also, given the possibility that the lad is having issues with the new Rabbi, it seems that his choice might not be entirely to do with a lack of belief, but a desire to isolate himself from change, by removing himself from the situation, from having to deal with the new leader of his local congregation.

That said, if the kid REALLY does not believe, then no one on the face of this earth has the right to force him to go through with the ceremony impending, nor indeed force him into stand in a place of worship for any reason, and go through the motions without feeling connected to the practice.

It's a tricky one, but there is a lot riding on this for a lad of his faith and age, so it needs looking into deeply, before he makes any final decision. Perhaps the family ought to arrange a meeting with a prominent scientist who also happens to have a strong faith, and allow the child to talk to that person?

Make no mistake about it though, it IS his choice to make.

a reply to: OptimusSubprime

Hypocrisy! Vast hypocrisy!

As a Christian, I would expect more compassion from you, not judgement. No human being living on this earth is fit to cast such judgement upon his or her fellow man, to cast them aside casually as you do in your post.

And people wonder why I no longer go to church!

In this situation, my sympathies are going with the "rights of the individual" side of the argument rather than the religious side.
It reminds me of refusing to go to Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve.
"It's a family occasion", said my mother. No it isn't; it's a religious occasion.

Admittedly I was a late-developing atheist, and the situation did not arise until I was at college and legally independent.
When I went through Confirmation, I just accepted what was happening.
But if I had been actively against Confirmation, I don't see what purpose it would have served to force me through it.

Even if the family have "rights of authority" on their side, why force the issue by trying to make it happen in a particular year? That just turns it into a clash of wills in which pride will make the boy stubborn.
They could let it go for the moment, and then offer it again another year.
Or they could try for a compromise by emphasising the social aspect; "We will let you have the bar without the Mitzvah".

a reply to: windword

He should still stick to his family's traditions, god know's enough people have die'd trying to keep them over the centuries and it is not about just his religion but his heritage and identity.

a reply to: windword

I think the kid should be able to decide if he wants this ritual or not. If he is intelligent and aware enough to be scientifically minded and to have figured out at 11 that he's an atheist, I think he's wise beyond his years. Forcing him with some kind of guilt trip, so the family can feel more comfortable and accepted in the religion, is surely some kind of abuse.

I was "saved" when I was about 11-12 because I knew it was about time, according to my church. I still believed in the God story. It's so silly to me now, but I knew it was expected of me, and I played along because it was the thing to do. I decided and planned it ahead of time (even though you were supposed to do it because you "feel the calling"). I even took my Catholic friend to church with me that evening so she could watch me go up and receive forgiveness.

I don't really have regret, because I wasn't outwardly forced to do it, but if I had determined that I was an atheist and had been forced, I would absolutely hate my parents.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

I was "saved" when I was about 11-12 because I knew it was about time, according to my church. I still believed in the God story. It's so silly to me now, but I knew it was expected of me, and I played along because it was the thing to do. I decided and planned it ahead of time (even though you were supposed to do it because you "feel the calling"). I even took my Catholic friend to church with me that evening so she could watch me go up and receive forgiveness.

Yeah, in Christianity, one must admit that their guilty worthless sinners in order to truly "belong"

From what I am understanding, Bar Mitsvahs happen with or without ceremony automatically when a boy turn 13.

So what does it mean to become a bar mitzvah? Under Jewish Law, children are not obligated to observe the commandments, although they are encouraged to do so as much as possible to learn the obligations they will have as adults. At the age of 13 (12 for girls), children become obligated to observe the commandments. The bar mitzvah ceremony formally, publicly marks the assumption of that obligation, along with the corresponding right to take part in leading religious services, to count in a minyan (the minimum number of people needed to perform certain parts of religious services), to form binding contracts, to testify before religious courts and to marry.

A Jewish boy automatically becomes a bar mitzvah upon reaching the age of 13 years, and a girl upon reaching the age of 12 years. No ceremony is needed to confer these rights and obligations. The popular bar mitzvah ceremony is not required, and does not fulfill any commandment. It is certainly not, as one episode of the Simpsons would have you believe, necessary to have a bar mitzvah in order to be considered a Jew! The bar or bat mitzvah is a relatively modern innovation, not mentioned in the Talmud, and the elaborate ceremonies and receptions that are commonplace today were unheard of as recently as a century ago.
www.jewfaq.org...

Meh, I think he should (decide to) go ahead and do it and get presents and stuff!

originally posted by: windword
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Meh, I think he should (decide to) go ahead and do it and get presents and stuff!

yeh me too...then throw him into the volcano....

Smart kid. The Talmud is the most racist book in the world and he should recognize non-jews as human.

I started to question religion(Baptist) at the same age and never looked back. But with this kid, it's more than just a religion, it's a culture as well. He'll have his work cut out for him.

originally posted by: Rex282

originally posted by: windword
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Meh, I think he should (decide to) go ahead and do it and get presents and stuff!

yeh me too...then throw him into the volcano....

LOL!
Lil sinner!

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: windword

He should still stick to his family's traditions, god know's enough people have die'd trying to keep them over the centuries and it is not about just his religion but his heritage and identity.

Worst excuse for being a clone of your mother/father I've ever read. Is that why you let your parents decide who you were going to be? Or did you decide for yourself?

a reply to: LABTECH767

All I can say is wow... Last time I checked, "I" decided who I was, not my parents or my religion. My identity rests with my own perceptions and actions, not the actions of others. To say that ones identity is subject to such a shallow consensus as society or culture, is incredibly naive, bordering on asinine. I know plenty of people who wish thy were not associated with their cultural heritage and rightfully so; to say otherwise, is to deny your own individuality and free will.

I doubt its as easy as that for the parents because they say they were enjoying their Jewish life - but if the older son doesn't or rejects the Jewish life, then they will either have to try to talk him round or live with the tutting of their friends and also their family at large. Its not so easy in specific religious groups as it is for people who mix well out of their religion as within it.

I suspect it is something that a lot of youngsters are going to find a challenge when it comes to taking up the religion of their parents and family. Today we know so much more about the origins of religion, especially Judiasm, Christianity etc etc - who tried to influence what and how they went about it. Kids today mature very early and one of 'their things' is to think for themselves and parents, especially religious ones who like to observe at least some of their religion's celebrations etc will be very disappointed.