Pope says communists are closet Christians

a reply to: NavyDoc

Some food for thought, Doc.

Institutional economics, once the main school of economic thought in the United States, holds that capitalism cannot be separated from the political and social system within which it is embedded. It emphasizes the legal foundations of capitalism (see John R. Commons) and the evolutionary, habituated, and volitional processes by which institutions are erected and then changed.

One key figure in institutional economics was Thorstein Veblen who in his book, The Theory of the Leisure Class (1899), analyzed the motivations of wealthy people in capitalism who conspicuously consumed their riches as a way of demonstrating success. The concept of conspicuous consumption was in direct contradiction to the neoclassical view that capitalism was efficient.

In The Theory of Business Enterprise (1904) Veblen distinguished the motivations of industrial production for people to use things from business motivations that used, or misused, industrial infrastructure for profit, arguing that the former often is hindered because businesses pursue the latter. Output and technological advance are restricted by business practices and the creation of monopolies. Businesses protect their existing capital investments and employ excessive credit, leading to depressions and increasing military expenditure and war through business control of political power.

Link

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
a reply to: defcon5

Under capitalism there is nothing to force an employer to treat his employees fairly, and they are actually rewarded for unethical behavior. Obviously they cannot be trusted to wield that sort of power, and the government (the people) are going to have to put them under some sort of control.

Hehehehehe...there is the sad reality, friends. Right. There. Very few, once placed in such a position, can be trusted to wield that authority judiciously and appropriately. It's all too easy to get paranoid and place your own interests in front of everyone elses'. It's all too easy to get jumpy and terminate a possible threat before it terminates you. It's all too easy to get lost in the rabid dog fight dressed in preppy clothing that our society has become. As the Joker said, society is, in many instances, an illusion. All it takes to break the illusion, is breaking the order. Then you see who people really are. But if you look closely, you don't have to go that far. Just give them lots of money and a bunch of people to boss around. What's that saying? The true measure of a man can be seen by how he treats his inferiors. Ever since I read that, I've held by it. Because we are most truly ourselves when we believe we are untouchable. Like the Rockefellers.

Like the Clintons and Obamas and Putin and Stalin and Mao. Thinking that business is untrustworthy but government is is a large amount of cognitive dissonance.

Government basically is a business.

originally posted by: NavyDoc
The fact of the matter is, however, that there are many who are shiftless and lazy and under communism you said they would have to be coerced or banished if they don't contribute. How is that any more "humane?"

Its not, but you cannot have someone that is a constant drain on the system either. Just because there is communal existence doesn't mean there aren't rules and laws. You seem to be trying to paint this into something its not.

originally posted by: NavyDoc
"Fair wages" are not paid? What makes a wage fair. Is it the value of the labor?

A wage that can be reasonably lived on.

originally posted by: NavyDoc
There is a lot under capitalism to encourage good treatment of workers. With competition and a demand for a stilled labor force, those who have skills in demand will get truly fair treatment (not leftist something for nothing "fairness") otherwise the skilled labor will go down the road and work for eh nicer employer.

I am guessing that you are either still in the Navy, or a Doctor in private practice now, and have no idea what it like in the real corporate sector. There is no encouragement to keep good employees out there right now. They can get rid of you and get two other desperate unemployed people for half the money, and it only gets worse as you get older.

The older you get, even though you generally get better at your job, the more they consider you an overpaid liability that is going to get sick and cost them more money... You have more seniority, you cost more per hour, you have better benefits, and you are more prone to run up their insurance costs by getting sick.

And no, you cannot just “go down the street and get a new job”, because since 2008 they have intentionally driven the unemployment rate through the roof. That means right now there are sometimes hundreds to thousands of people for each available job. They did this for profit. One of my friends who still works at one of the big three was the last guy left in his department, and he is doing all their work now for less money then he was making years ago. Of course he is so thankful to have a job, that he just puts up with it.

Another friend of mine hasn't had a raise in 10 years, meanwhile the company is making record profits, but of course they keep crying poor when evaluation time rolls around. You have CEO's getting massive bonuses for doing this kind of stuff to their employees and “cutting the overhead”.

originally posted by: NavyDoc
This, of course, puts the onus on the individual to do something rather than just hang out at the coffee shop and bitch about how the man is keeping him down.

Really, so you going to say that to the 50 year old that just got laid off after 30 years working with a company? So what do you expect him to do? You think anyone is going to hire him at that age with only 15 years to retirement? You think he should just go back to school and get a new career at 50? You think any company isn't going to consider him a an “expensive” employee with a “high probability” of getting sick and having a bad attendance record?

originally posted by: NavyDoc
So a business man can't be trusted but the GOVERNMENT can? Are you serious? That is funny. Really? The government is comprised with trustworthy individuals who would never, ever abuse their power but no businessman is honest.

The government would do just fine if we removed the lobbyists that are really running the place in accordance with the wishes of their corporate masters.

"I can only say that the communists have stolen our flag. The flag of the poor is Christian. Poverty is at the center of the Gospel," he said, citing Biblical passages about the need to help the poor, the sick and the needy.

Poverty as defined by this world. It is what this pope preaches - this world. It is what this pope appeals to - this world. All that he preaches is a social gospel, not once does he address the poverty of the mind and spirit. Not once does he feed the sheep by teaching them contentment. Instead it's always an appeal to the poor to rise up and to demand a share of the wealth and possessions. Do not thugs kill a kid for his pair of trainers? This pope preaches give the thug the sneakers and all will be well but to be spiritually minded is to discern that the cause of the killing was not a lack of sneakers but a heart filled with envy, greed and murder. As such, this Pope's gospel is false. Jesus Christ did not heal the thug by giving him the sneakers that he coveted, Jesus Christ healed the thug's coveting!

One can feed the belly and yet starve the soul and spirit. And this Pope is doing it. Judas held the money bag and acted on the pretense that the poor were his concern...when in reality what consumed his heart?

originally posted by: Year1

"I can only say that the communists have stolen our flag. The flag of the poor is Christian. Poverty is at the center of the Gospel," he said, citing Biblical passages about the need to help the poor, the sick and the needy.

Poverty as defined by this world. It is what this pope preaches - this world. It is what this pope appeals to - this world. All that he preaches is a social gospel, not once does he address the poverty of the mind and spirit. Not once does he feed the sheep by teaching them contentment. Instead it's always an appeal to the poor to rise up and to demand a share of the wealth and possessions. Do not thugs kill a kid for his pair of trainers? This pope preaches give the thug the sneakers and all will be well but to be spiritually minded is to discern that the cause of the killing was not a lack of sneakers but a heart filled with envy, greed and murder. As such, this Pope's gospel is false. Jesus Christ did not heal the thug by giving him the sneakers that he coveted, Jesus Christ healed the thug's coveting!

One can feed the belly and yet starve the soul and spirit. And this Pope is doing it. Judas held the money bag and acted on the pretense that the poor were his concern...when in reality what consumed his heart?

I don't believe he ever said "give the communists what they want". I think he is teasing them, imparting his own message at their expense.

originally posted by: AfterInfinity

originally posted by: Year1

"I can only say that the communists have stolen our flag. The flag of the poor is Christian. Poverty is at the center of the Gospel," he said, citing Biblical passages about the need to help the poor, the sick and the needy.

Poverty as defined by this world. It is what this pope preaches - this world. It is what this pope appeals to - this world. All that he preaches is a social gospel, not once does he address the poverty of the mind and spirit. Not once does he feed the sheep by teaching them contentment. Instead it's always an appeal to the poor to rise up and to demand a share of the wealth and possessions. Do not thugs kill a kid for his pair of trainers? This pope preaches give the thug the sneakers and all will be well but to be spiritually minded is to discern that the cause of the killing was not a lack of sneakers but a heart filled with envy, greed and murder. As such, this Pope's gospel is false. Jesus Christ did not heal the thug by giving him the sneakers that he coveted, Jesus Christ healed the thug's coveting!

One can feed the belly and yet starve the soul and spirit. And this Pope is doing it. Judas held the money bag and acted on the pretense that the poor were his concern...when in reality what consumed his heart?

I don't believe he ever said "give the communists what they want". I think he is teasing them, imparting his own message at their expense.

Communism is not bad. It's just a different economic plan. I think capitalism is better, but I have no idea how they convinced people, if you come up with a different plan the capitalism your evil and must be destroyed. Don't be a sheeple!

originally posted by: Year1

"I can only say that the communists have stolen our flag. The flag of the poor is Christian. Poverty is at the center of the Gospel," he said, citing Biblical passages about the need to help the poor, the sick and the needy.

Poverty as defined by this world. It is what this pope preaches - this world. It is what this pope appeals to - this world. All that he preaches is a social gospel, not once does he address the poverty of the mind and spirit. Not once does he feed the sheep by teaching them contentment. Instead it's always an appeal to the poor to rise up and to demand a share of the wealth and possessions. Do not thugs kill a kid for his pair of trainers? This pope preaches give the thug the sneakers and all will be well but to be spiritually minded is to discern that the cause of the killing was not a lack of sneakers but a heart filled with envy, greed and murder. As such, this Pope's gospel is false. Jesus Christ did not heal the thug by giving him the sneakers that he coveted, Jesus Christ healed the thug's coveting!

One can feed the belly and yet starve the soul and spirit. And this Pope is doing it. Judas held the money bag and acted on the pretense that the poor were his concern...when in reality what consumed his heart?

Oh, I see.

So what this uppity pope should have been doing is placate the poor, get them to accept their condition as downtrodden, disenfranchised and be willing, grateful little slaves for the the rich #s that exploit them and stole what 'worldly' wealth should have been theirs by right of being human beings living in the 21st century.

I see. Wanting a slice of the pie is thugish.

It is better to just be a proud little matt everyone walks over because anything else is simply being a coveting thug.

What a steamy load of ... .

It's stuff like this that puts people off Christians and right wingers.

Yeah, cause you know you'll go to heaven by belief alone, no works required. No need to 'share those sneakers', as you put it. You can just stuff it to 'the thug'.

"# you, I got mine!"

Sure. Real Christlike.

originally posted by: blupblup
a reply to: Wrabbit2000



Your OP is just silly.... that's not really what he said and he was being tongue in cheek and "bigging up" his religion.
He's saying that the Communists were not the first to champion the poor and call for financial and social equality, Jesus got there first.

It's really a non-issue that you're trying to make into something.

Lame.

The OP and story source to Reuters and are one example of the coverage of the Pontiff's statements on this issue, which were world headlines when I picked it up to share on ATS. No apologies for sharing a world media matter for members to discuss and I'm sorry it's not to your liking.

originally posted by: Wrabbit2000

..then again, I've never seen the personal head of the ROman Catholic Church suggest one of the largest conspiracies in religious history if there is truth to it. Communists...closet Christians.

This is what I took issue with, it's just silly.
He's not suggesting a huge conspiracy at all... AT ALL.
You're ridiculously reaching.

Well done

originally posted by: Bone75
a reply to: ketsuko

Except no one is trying to take your sandwich. Communism works by making sure you both have sandwiches to begin with.

Yeah, communism (in it's intended form) wouldn't redistribute the sandwiches, it would make sure everyone has fair access to and control over the means of sandwich-production.

This does not surprise me at all. The Catholic Church has never liked democracy. They have always wanted control of the masses, and through the dark ages, that evil institution did have an iron grip over the people. They manipulated and controlled kingdoms and monarchies.

When those kingdoms feel and new democratic countries were formed, especially that of the United States of America, the Catholic Church was greatly distressed.

No wonder when Mussolini and Hitler came into power, the Catholic Church staunchly backed those tyrannical dictators. History attests to this fact.

Now to talk about his comparing the Biblical passages to communism. There is a lot to be wanting, and obviously this person really does not understand the scriptures.

In Christianity a person is taught to love his neighbor as himself, not to get involved in worldly politics, (not false apostate Christianity, that takes the lead in whoring itself with governments), and to show human kindness and do kind deeds of goodness to all sorts of person, and especially to those related to them in the faith:

(Galatians 6:10) . . .So, then, as long as we have the opportunity, let us work what is good toward all, but especially toward those related to us in the faith.

But they are never forced to do anything they don't' want to. Everything they do is out of a complete heart, and voluntarily, as each one wants to give out of their own heart:

(Galatians 6:10) . . .So, then, as long as we have the opportunity, let us work what is good toward all, but especially toward those related to us in the faith.

(2 Corinthians 9:7) . . .Let each one do just as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.


Just in case anyone is curious, those passages are quoted to back up what the Bible teaches, and the difference between the Christian community and communism. There is nothing remotely related between the two.

originally posted by: Subnatural

originally posted by: Bone75
a reply to: ketsuko

Except no one is trying to take your sandwich. Communism works by making sure you both have sandwiches to begin with.

Yeah, communism (in it's intended form) wouldn't redistribute the sandwiches, it would make sure everyone has fair access to and control over the means of sandwich-production.

And nobody has a sandwich because everybody is hanging out waiting for the other guy to make them.

originally posted by: defcon5

originally posted by: NavyDoc
The fact of the matter is, however, that there are many who are shiftless and lazy and under communism you said they would have to be coerced or banished if they don't contribute. How is that any more "humane?"

Its not, but you cannot have someone that is a constant drain on the system either. Just because there is communal existence doesn't mean there aren't rules and laws. You seem to be trying to paint this into something its not.

originally posted by: NavyDoc
"Fair wages" are not paid? What makes a wage fair. Is it the value of the labor?

A wage that can be reasonably lived on.

originally posted by: NavyDoc
There is a lot under capitalism to encourage good treatment of workers. With competition and a demand for a stilled labor force, those who have skills in demand will get truly fair treatment (not leftist something for nothing "fairness") otherwise the skilled labor will go down the road and work for eh nicer employer.

I am guessing that you are either still in the Navy, or a Doctor in private practice now, and have no idea what it like in the real corporate sector. There is no encouragement to keep good employees out there right now. They can get rid of you and get two other desperate unemployed people for half the money, and it only gets worse as you get older.

The older you get, even though you generally get better at your job, the more they consider you an overpaid liability that is going to get sick and cost them more money... You have more seniority, you cost more per hour, you have better benefits, and you are more prone to run up their insurance costs by getting sick.

And no, you cannot just “go down the street and get a new job”, because since 2008 they have intentionally driven the unemployment rate through the roof. That means right now there are sometimes hundreds to thousands of people for each available job. They did this for profit. One of my friends who still works at one of the big three was the last guy left in his department, and he is doing all their work now for less money then he was making years ago. Of course he is so thankful to have a job, that he just puts up with it.

Another friend of mine hasn't had a raise in 10 years, meanwhile the company is making record profits, but of course they keep crying poor when evaluation time rolls around. You have CEO's getting massive bonuses for doing this kind of stuff to their employees and “cutting the overhead”.

originally posted by: NavyDoc
This, of course, puts the onus on the individual to do something rather than just hang out at the coffee shop and bitch about how the man is keeping him down.

Really, so you going to say that to the 50 year old that just got laid off after 30 years working with a company? So what do you expect him to do? You think anyone is going to hire him at that age with only 15 years to retirement? You think he should just go back to school and get a new career at 50? You think any company isn't going to consider him a an “expensive” employee with a “high probability” of getting sick and having a bad attendance record?

originally posted by: NavyDoc
So a business man can't be trusted but the GOVERNMENT can? Are you serious? That is funny. Really? The government is comprised with trustworthy individuals who would never, ever abuse their power but no businessman is honest.

The government would do just fine if we removed the lobbyists that are really running the place in accordance with the wishes of their corporate masters.

See? That's what I was getting to. You guys talk about the communist ideal, but when it comes to practical matters, you end up with what we always see in communist states--force, coercion, and no individual liberty. "Everyone gets something in our society--everyone's needs are covered. Okay, but what if he doesn't want to do anything. Well then we FORCE him!" Thus, when it comes down to brass tacks, your communist ideal will have to become everything you claim you don't want.

I'm in the private sector and have started a couple of businesses that are doing decently and I know EXACTLY what goes into running a business and how difficult it can be.

Lobbyists exist because of governmental interference. If government was not involved in micromanaging everything and legislating everything, lobbyists wouldn't have anything to do. If the government was not regulating and taxing your industry and by the stroke of a pen could make or break you or your competition, there would be no need for lobbyists. So it again comes down to corrupt and too powerful government.

a reply to: blupblup

You're free to contact Reuters for a source quoted title and direct quoted story from their copy.

If the title isn't to your liking, this is a problem for an Editor somewhere at Reuters. It wouldn't be with the ATS member (me in this case) who chose to share a legitimate media story on the site.

Enough with the source nazi nonsense. If you hate a topic..hey, no need to even read it, let alone just reply enough to tell an OP it sucks and they're a fool to have brought it.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

I just love how people keep reacting like "There's no way a communist could be a Christian, nuh uh, quit talking that crazy talk!"

Most Nazis were Christian, after all.

a reply to: defcon5

Really, so you going to say that to the 50 year old that just got laid off after 30 years working with a company? So what do you expect him to do? You think anyone is going to hire him at that age with only 15 years to retirement? You think he should just go back to school and get a new career at 50? You think any company isn't going to consider him a an “expensive” employee with a “high probability” of getting sick and having a bad attendance record?

I can tell you from experience:

No. They won't hire us.
And the longer we are out of work, the LESS likely we are to even get a call, let alone an interview!

I left the corporate world in August of 2008 (what dazzlingly spectacular timing, eh?) in order to help my mother take care of my elderly, frail father. My bosses wouldn't give me the time off to spend a week with him while she went on a badly needed respite. Because "everyone works on New Years Eve." That company was awful to their employees.

Since then, I've found a few part-time/seasonal jobs, but nothing - even applied to local hardware store as seasonal help - not even a call. And then, Taco Bell!! Not even Taco Bell is interested in a 55-year old with supervisory AND retail AND customer service who worked for 40 years. Nope. Not even a call.

The unemployment numbers are wrong, because a LOT of people have given up entirely, and are not collecting "unemployment". I've never been on food stamps, or welfare. I worked 40 years of my life, raised two kids along the way, and have an advanced degree (for which I owe student loans that I am UNABLE to pay - probably ever).

Now, it's hopeless. I've tried dumbing down my resume, modifying it for every job I've applied to, even just filled out their handed-out applications. NOTHING.
Fortunately, my husband is able to support us both. For now.

a reply to: ketsuko The rich steal from us all the time,but people only seem to have a problem with lazy welfare mothers and illegal aliens. Crazy. If I needed money and had to resort to theft, I would target those folks with the trillions offshore, rather than live off the carcasses of the poor. It's amazing (and not a little disheartening) to what lengths the victims will go to defend their masters! After all, what do we know of 'communism' other than what 'they' (our masters) have told us?

originally posted by: Wrabbit2000
a reply to: blupblup

You're free to contact Reuters for a source quoted title and direct quoted story from their copy.

If the title isn't to your liking, this is a problem for an Editor somewhere at Reuters. It wouldn't be with the ATS member (me in this case) who chose to share a legitimate media story on the site.

Enough with the source nazi nonsense. If you hate a topic..hey, no need to even read it, let alone just reply enough to tell an OP it sucks and they're a fool to have brought it.

What?? Are you being purposely obtuse?
Reuters didn't say

originally posted by: Wrabbit2000
..then again, I've never seen the personal head of the ROman Catholic Church suggest one of the largest conspiracies in religious history if there is truth to it. Communists...closet Christians.

YOU did... not the pope, you.

I don't dislike the topic, I thought it was quite humorous what the Pope said.... for you it was far more serious, in fact one of the biggest religious conspiracies!!

*sigh*

He only did it because people attacked him for ONLY going after capitalism so to "even things out" he says that Communists stole the Christian flag... he's essentially saying that there is nothing new under the sun.


You can see that's what he's saying...

Citing Biblical passages about the need to help the poor, the sick and the needy, the Pope said: ”Communists say that all this is communism. Sure, twenty centuries later. So when they speak, one can say to them: 'but then you are Christian'.”
www.independent.co.uk...

He's just saying that the values of Christ and Communists are similar and that Christ beat Communism by a considerable amount of time.


You know what? If Jesus came back today he would BE a Communist to the Right Wing... they'd hate him and persecute him and call him all the names and slurs that current "liberal bleeding hearts" get called.


You know what you're doing but fine, keep waffling nonsense.

a reply to: blupblup

Okay. Wow. I'm very sorry you have found my Op to be so offensive. It's presented how it's presented, and that is how I've chosen to convey the story. That isn't something I would handle differently. It's legitimate in my view.

However, it was certainly not my intention to personally upset anyone, and so I do offer my sincere regret for having done so on a matter I hadn't realized you had such personal passion about.

Have a good evening.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

The most powerful part of the Bible is the story of Jesus. Jesus didn't go around trying to take people's means of production without their permission. Instead he took it upon himself to help others using peaceful means, not forceful means. Communism is about using force to support your network of friends and family. Jesus realized that while people have an evil nature, they can behave in a civilized way without being forced to. Communists think everyone is evil, except them of course, and should use whatever force necessary to help their circle of people who they think need the money more.

Implementation of communism requires the creation of a politician class that has more rights and money than the commoner class. So, it fails.