Polar ice cap expanding. Global warming called off. ?

a reply to: Timing

The sea ice never disappeared at either pole, I don't know where you are getting your information on what the 'warming crowd claims' but it's not accurate if you're coming away with that. Sea ice is disappear-ING in the ARCTIC not the Antarctic. The ice sheets at both poles are in decline. All of the ice at the poles doesn't melt in summer and reform in winter, it just stays there all year shrinking in summers and growing in winters except now it's shrinking more in summers and growing less in winters because it's warmer but not so warm yet that ice can't form in winters.

You seem to have a lot of misinformation. For global warming to be true does not mean that instantly it's too hot for ice to form... that won't happen in our life times though total loss arctic SEA ice might.

a reply to: pikestaff

What about them? It was a frigid winter. What's your point?

originally posted by: Timing
The scientist don't know all the factors, as far as they know it's completely natural.

They know its not happened to this extent before, and its NOT natural.
If you personally want to believe that its not due to mans adding too much extra CO2 into the atmosphere, look into Ocean Acidification. The climate isn't the only thing that is being affected by the increasing levels of CO2 from burning fossil fuels.

originally posted by: Timing
It's absurd to be pushing governments to levy taxes and cause more economic hardship for people.

They have to do something to put a stop to this sort of thing:

That is China, who allow factories to run with no oversight into their levels of pollution. Now if you can look at that photo and honestly tell me that man is not affecting the climate, then I don't think anyone can explain the truth to you.

originally posted by: Timing
Now as far as the ice cores goes, if there was a decrease in land ice for that year you wouldn't know it because that data would be non-existent in the ice core data because the ice melted.

I don't know exactly how it works, but if that were the case their whole historic time line would be askew. They obviously have some way to know such things.

originally posted by: Timing
As far as the salinity of the water there is place up around Russia and Alaska where Salt Water and Fresh water meet, but it doesn't blend.

We're not talking about brackish water here, we're talking about the salinity that drives the Gulf Stream Currents.

See in that image where it says Thermohaline? Haline as in a Halocline:

Halocline
In oceanography, a halocline is a subtype of chemocline caused by a strong, vertical salinity gradient within a body of water. Because salinity (in concert with temperature) affects the density of seawater, it can play a role in its vertical stratification. Increasing salinity by one kg/m3 results in an increase of seawater density of around 0.7 kg/m3.
In the midlatitudes, an excess of evaporation over precipitation leads to surface waters being saltier than deep waters. In such regions, the vertical stratification is due to surface waters being warmer than deep waters and the halocline is destabilizing. Such regions may be prone to salt fingering, a process which results in the preferential mixing of salinity.
In certain high latitude regions (such as the Arctic Ocean, Bering Sea, and the Southern Ocean) the surface waters are actually colder than the deep waters and the halocline is responsible for maintaining water column stability- isolating the surface waters from the deep waters. In these regions, the halocline is important in allowing for the formation of sea ice, and limiting the escape of carbon dioxide to the atmosphere. Haloclines are also found in fjords, and poorly mixed estuaries where fresh water is deposited at the ocean surface.

That last paragraph should answer all your other questions from above...

originally posted by: Timing
If it was hot enough two years ago to melt the sea ice and create a "hottest on record" headline, what happened last year that caused the sea ice to form and still be called "hottest on record"?

Just to reiterate what I posted above.
Its not the temperature of the atmosphere that causes sea ice, its the temperature of the water. The fact that the ice is growing and receding at greater rates now show that the stability normally controlled by the salinity is decreasing. That is a sign that the Gulf Stream is breaking down. That is why you are getting big fluctuations of sea ice.

Another way to explain this is if you have ever had to deal with a swimming pool. The alkalinity in your pool acts as a buffer that keeps the PH from swinging radically. Not enough alkalinity, and your acid levels are all over the place. That is essentially what the salinity does with the water temperatures in the gulf stream.

So this crap about the sea ice actually PROVES that global warming is occurring, but the climate deniers use it to try and disprove it to those who don't understand the details involved.

Its the same old debate every 6 months...

Hmm, I would love to see the data on how all this ICE, got on the land in the first place, not THEORIES, but provable data.

I would love to know why a temperature increase of ONE degree Fahrenheit over 100 years would cause an entire land locked ice mass to start breaking off in this fashion.

It is beyond clear, that in the areas this ice is melting and breaking off, it is not even above FREEZING POINT most of the time it is doing this, so YES increased heat from UNDER the ICE is causing this.

Why do you people trumpet that humans are the cause of this and need to be taxed to death and held to account as if somehow the average Joe is responsible for melting that is taking place at FIFTY degrees below ZERO.

Furthermore, we can see that the ice is NOT melting at every point, uniformly because of some Universal Law that states humans are the end all, BE ALL of evil.

This crap is yet another piece of evidence that many, MANY other factors are involved with this world, and SCIENCE is not allowed to look at ANY OF IT.

a reply to: kloejen

Every few days lol.

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: beezzer

We don't know everything, that doesn't mean we know nothing. We KNOW certain things about how things work, for climate we know:

Earth gets it's energy from the sun, life as we know it exists because of the sun, climate as we knew it wouldn't have existed without the sun.

Earths orbit, wobble, rotation and tilt cause variations in how much of the earth is in or out of the sun every day/season/cycle. This is typically what causes ice ages and warm periods.

Gasses in our atmosphere affect how much energy we receive, retain and let escape from the sun. Some gases reflect energy not allowing it to Earth's surface, some do nothing and some make that energy bounce back to Earth's surface after Earth has radiated it back outward. Not enough of those gases and it's too cold, too much of those gases and it's too hot (for us, not necessarily for all life).

The sun goes through minimum and maximum cycles... sometimes the sun gives more energy, sometimes less. Though in our history of observing the sun and extrapolating it's history before us, it hasn't fluctuated enough to give us significant change in climate. The sun has been giving us a relatively steady stream of energy, not enough change in it to cause an ice age nor a warming period.

The Earth 'breathes', this is known as the carbon cycle. The norm for Earth's carbon cycle... the norm that allowed life as we know it to crop up has changed and is continuing to change. Data collected from tree rings, ocean sediment and ice cores show that when greenhouse gases are high the planet is warmer, when they are low the planet is colder.

Ocean oscillations also factor into global temperatures but that seems to be relatively short term effects.

Differences in earths orbit, wobble and tilt as well as greenhouse gases are the two major factors of climate change and ocean oscillations for short term effects...it doesn't seem likely that unknown factors exist.

What we don't know and why it remains a subject needing to be studied is sensitivity. We have only estimates for that, we don't know exactly when we'll reach a tipping point only that we will if we don't change our ways... because all those other knowns I listed, it's none of those causing global temperatures to rise.

Bravo! Finally someone who understands!

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: beezzer
The Earth 'breathes', this is known as the carbon cycle. The norm for Earth's carbon cycle... the norm that allowed life as we know it to crop up has changed and is continuing to change. Data collected from tree rings, ocean sediment and ice cores show that when greenhouse gases are high the planet is warmer, when they are low the planet is colder.

But data shows that the rise and fall of CO2 is a reaction to the warming and cooling of the earth, not the cause of it. It helps to determine which comes first before you start spewing out information that, while somewhat correct, is not the whole picture.

originally posted by: ParasuvO
Hmm, I would love to see the data on how all this ICE, got on the land in the first place, not THEORIES, but provable data.

I'm quite certain it had to do with millions of years of evolution...it started out by floating in the water as millions of iceburgs, then because of the radiation coming through the ozone hole, they eventually mutated to be able to flop themselves up onto land, eventually forming legs that allowed them to climb to the highest peaks of Antarctica.

Sadly, though, the earth warmed slightly and they all turned to slush, and as it cooled again, they solidified as a thin layer of ice covering the entirety of the continent. This cycle continued on for 100s of millions of years.

Eventually man emerged, and as we all know, we were fierce hunters back in the day, and we hunted all of the iceburgs to extinction before they could keep crawling on to land. This made god sad, so in retaliation, he cried innumerable amounts of snow tears onto the surface of the ice, and marks this occasion every year during a season we now call "Winter."

I took the muffler off my truck and ATV to combat this problem. When the neighbors complain how loud it is, I tell them that I'm helping to keep the world from entering another ice age!!!

But seriously, I don't see how any pro global warming person has any ground to stand on and this is just more evidence of that.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

But data shows that the rise and fall of CO2 is a reaction to the warming and cooling of the earth, not the cause of it.

Not exactly. Greenhouse warming isn't the only way Earth warms. Orbital forcing is another way. Our path around the sun can cause the planet to warm significantly which can cause all sorts of reasons for sequestered carbon and other GHG's to be released, either from mass die offs (decay from deceased organic matter) or from thawing permafrost. So temperature can precede GHG increase but only for a short time, once GHGs reach high enough levels they take over as the dominant forcing of warming.

a reply to: Fylgje

Oh you should try going full on and get the coal burners on those badboys too! Nothing says fight the man like smokes stacks blowing black soot all over the place.

What is really interesting about "Global Warming" is how strange it is. I mean, one ex-VP tells us about the ice melting and the polar bears dying, but when it is researched...the ice is growing and the polar bears are kicking up a party. Then they say...well...yeah...ahhh...the ice grows before it shrinks. And then when it doesn't shrink...the non-shrinkage is because the warming has progressed more than we thought.

Give it up...I'm sooooo sick of the "humans destroying the earth" thing. We are fleas on a huge dog. And as Carlin used to say...the world will be here for a long time past us...truth is...the Earth is fine, its us that are screwed. "Global Warming" is nothing but another left power play to gain control.

a reply to: Kali74

You seem knowledgeable and interested in this subject.

Can you tell me why the OP's article claims arctic ice it's expanding, which you also don't deny (tho you attribute it to different reasons), yet the video on page 1 shows that it overall has been completely deteriorating?



What is the truth? There's conflict within most of the arguments here. Danke.

a reply to: TheLegend

That's the Arctic. The sea ice being discussed in this thread is in the Antarctic. Sea ice does still form in the Arctic as well but it's extremely thin and doesn't last through Arctic summers to the degree that it used to. Ice on the land and the sea is disappearing much faster in the Arctic than the Antarctic.

originally posted by: Kali74
Not exactly. Greenhouse warming isn't the only way Earth warms. Orbital forcing is another way. Our path around the sun can cause the planet to warm significantly which can cause all sorts of reasons for sequestered carbon and other GHG's to be released, either from mass die offs (decay from deceased organic matter) or from thawing permafrost. So temperature can precede GHG increase but only for a short time, once GHGs reach high enough levels they take over as the dominant forcing of warming.

Okay, as far as the eccentric of earth's orbit, it varies from about 0.0034 at its most circular to 0.058 at its most dramatic ellipse, and the interim between those extremes is roughly 100,000 years. This 100,000 years actually correlates roughly with the cycles of ice ages and inter-glacial warm periods.

What you're failing to accept is the reality that it's not that "temperature can precede GHG increase...," but that it historically does all the time! Not only that, but that lag of CO2 increase after the temps rise is generally more than a century after the fact, and that holds true for cooling as well--the CO2 decrease follows the cooling, it doesn't precede it. See here...

The interesting thing is that what does overlap relatively congruently is the historical rise and fall of temperature versus cosmic ray flux (with a slight lag in temperature, as would be expected), showing a direct correlation between sun intensity and the warming of the earth. See here...

Your point actually helps my stance on changes in earth's climate...the sun is the massive, overwhelming driving factor in the equation. Human activity's effect on climate change is minuscule at worst, inconsequential at best.

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: Fylgje

Oh you should try going full on and get the coal burners on those badboys too! Nothing says fight the man like smokes stacks blowing black soot all over the place.

LOLOLOl
That would definitely bring a tear to the Indians eye. I swear the other day I saw a Chevy S-10 with smoke stacks. I cracked up. He's doin' his part.

But seriously, I'm all for a cleaner environment and think we should all make better decisions. But corporations need to be monitored very closely. They don't care about you or me.

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: FinalCountdown

More sea ice is due to melt and calving into the sea. Growing sea ice is evidence of warming or volcanic activity under the ice, not cooling.

Unless you are a verifiable scientist, some sources will be needed to back this up. Thanks.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
Andy Watts is a climate denier. Of course he's going to spin that...

The Video Andy Watts Tried to Ban

Shouldn't a "climate denier" be someone who denies that climate exists? It seems like a straw-man attack phrase for a group of people who don't actually exist. I know there are global warming deniers out there. I doubt there are any climate change deniers out there. But the idea that there are climate deniers out there seems very far fetched... possibly a way for you to pigeon-hole people who don't agree with you.

Andy Watts knows himself better than you know him. Has he ever referred to himself as a "climate denier". Then chances are, he isn't.