Good start with Canada

"more socialist voters" is simply not true

Now that statment is misinfo and you know it don't try to cloud the issue.

Now here is the popular vote numbers from the 2000 election.

Libs 5,252,031 40.85% +2.39% Change from 1997
CA 3,276,929 25.49% +6.13% Change from Reform Party of Canaga in 1997
PQ 1,377,727 10.72% +0.04%
NDP 1,093,868 8.51% -2.54%
PC 1,566,998 12.19% -6.65%

Now the present day figures...2004
Libs 4,951,107 36.7%
Cons 3,994,682 29.6%
PQ 1,672,874 15.7%
NDP 2,116,536 15.7%
Green 580,816 4.3%

Figures from here en.wikipedia.org...

The NDP Picked up over a million more votes then last time bud.

[edit on 2-12-2004 by sardion2000]

ok - "bud"

but because of a landslide shift to the far left ideology...or simply a vote against Harper/Martin?

anyone that even had a slight taste of the NDP in power will never vote them in again....bud

Originally posted by rayzor11
ok - "bud"

but because of a landslide shift to the far left ideology...or simply a vote against Harper/Martin?

anyone that even had a slight taste of the NDP in power will never vote them in again....bud

Well I have had a taste of NDP governance and the only thing that comes to mind that pissed people off was the so-called Ray-Days(intrepid would probably know better than I as he is a revered elder ). If memory serves me correctly the mass teacher strikes started about 2 years after Mike Harris was elected and his disastorous "Commen Sense" revoloution starting to really take an affect. Amalgamation has turned Toronto into a city that was once called "Toronto the Good" to "Toronto the smelly rotting from the inside out". Mike harris was supposed to fix our schools and our transit. Well if you take transit in toronto you will know its falling apart and cant handle the daily load so they keep increasing fares putting more and more of a pinch on the working poors meager salaries. And if you went to PUBLIC school(ie not Private Tuition hoity toity conservative brainwashing centers) then you will know that class sizes are bursting at the seam, teachers stay on the job for 5 years(on average) before they quit(because of long work days, alot of people think that when school is done then the teachers work is done but that is totally wrong, alot of teachers work anywhere from 10-16 hours a day for a meager salarie). So from where I grew up and live I can see just how much damage was done by "conservative" policies. Oh yeah he also discoraged protest and gave a free hand to riot pigs to use whatever force they deemed fit. Well let me tell you I was peacfully protesting and for no reason I get feckin pepper spreyed.

Originally posted by sardion2000
Well I have had a taste of NDP governance and the only thing that comes to mind that pissed people off was the so-called Ray-Days(intrepid would probably know better than I as he is a revered elder

). If memory serves me correctly the mass teacher strikes started about 2 years after Mike Harris was elected and his disastorous "Commen Sense" revoloution starting to really take an affect. Amalgamation has turned Toronto into a city that was once called "Toronto the Good" to "Toronto the smelly rotting from the inside out". Mike harris was supposed to fix our schools and our transit. Well if you take transit in toronto you will know its falling apart and cant handle the daily load so they keep increasing fares putting more and more of a pinch on the working poors meager salaries. And if you went to PUBLIC school(ie not Private Tuition hoity toity conservative brainwashing centers) then you will know that class sizes are bursting at the seam, teachers stay on the job for 5 years(on average) before they quit(because of long work days, alot of people think that when school is done then the teachers work is done but that is totally wrong, alot of teachers work anywhere from 10-16 hours a day for a meager salarie). So from where I grew up and live I can see just how much damage was done by "conservative" policies. Oh yeah he also discoraged protest and gave a free hand to riot pigs to use whatever force they deemed fit. Well let me tell you I was peacfully protesting and for no reason I get feckin pepper spreyed.

I went to public schools - and I believe the main problem in education in Ontario right now is the dual school boards....makes no sense to me. The teachers unions fights tooth and nail against any changes, when a one board system would save their jobs, and cut their bosses.

Meager salary? 10-16 hour days? Where did you go to school? Both my parents were teachers, and I admit its a hard job - but summers, x-mas and march break off....not to mention endless Ray-Days off...and they were paid very well. As far as teacher turn-over...at my last highschool reunion (15 year) almost ALL the same teachers were there. Friends that are teachers now have never brought up the 10-16 hour work days and to a man, did not agree with the union's stance back then...and alot of them coach football, hockey, etc. But I am one of those lunatics that believed education reform was long over-due.

I don't take Toronto transit, but I live the horror of Toronto traffic every day. Blame who you like, but IMO its a federal/provincial transfer probem..not just provincial.

Bottom line, I'm now aware that you are pro-NDP and have every right to that stance - I apologize for the earlier barbs. However, trying to get me to believe the entire country is shifting to the far left based on protest votes in the past election is not gonna happen!

I did feel sorry for Layton during the debates - he had some valid points, but before he could get one word in, the instant polls were flying over to disapprove as soon as they showed his face on camera.

I'm not Pro-NDP per-se I do agree with alot of what Mr. Layton has to say about Star Wars and the Environment, and to be truthfull there really isn't ANY party that fits my political idealogy(which is Pro Environment, Pro Socialised Medicine, Pro Legalised Marijuana, and Pro Technology esp Nanotech, and Anti-War on false pretenses lets just say im politically Anti-Conservative) I'm really glad we're talking rationally now I really enjoy these discussions, but I do think that there is a general shift towards the left in response to the shift to the right that the liberal party are seemingly making(and yes I do agree that it was a protest vote but if Martin keeps going the way i fear he is going then Canadians in general might just start thinking of the NDP as the only viable leftist platform, one example of somthing that would be politically disatorous is if Martin endorses Star Wars or somthing like that). As for where I went to school, I attended three different schools, the first Rosedale was the best high school out of the three but I just couldn't stand the artsy atmosphere, then I went to Eastern Commerce, and finnaly the worst of the barrel(but also the won where I met the most interesting people) Danforth Tech. Class size average was about 32 even though the supposed max dictated by the Tories was 30. The Tories response? Take away prep time. And yes salaries are meager when compared to say colledge profs. or university profs. And in my mind Primary school, highschool and post secondary should be treated somewhat equally as they are all important. As for traffic being a mess everywhere we could have solved that problem in the 90s but we didn't. Our Transit system needs to be overhauled, its crumbling.

So basically to sum it all up I:
Think our national focus should be on Healthcare and Education
Think we should not play to the tune of the Americans and go our own way
Think our electoral system should be changed over to the popular vote
Think we should stop building highways and start build more public transit(ie Subways, Busses and Trains are all good environmentally responsible things to do)
Think our gov't should be putting more capitol into Alternative Energy research


don't know if youll agree or disagree with any of the things I want for our country, and sorry if I sounded a bit preachy but I just call it how I see it and yes it is my opinion and it may change but I highly doubt it. Been let down to many times by "The Man" to trust any of the big two parties and I believe that Canadians are eventually waking up to that fact that our political system is slowly being "Americanized" and that frankely is one of my worst fears.

Originally posted by GODFLESH
Why do some of you people act with so much cynism when Bush is trying to rebuild relations? Isn�t this is a good thing and not bad?

Why did he wait 3 years to do it,Why just eastern Canada,and why did he break his agreement to not mention or bring up missle defence?
If he really wanted to get all kissy faced and huggy body with us he should at least have had the testicular fortitude to address parliament.Does he not get heckled in the U.S.?

Originally posted by Majic
Coercion, arm-twisting, whatever, it's all part of negotiating, which is what civilized nations do with one another. The U.S. will tend to want to set things up more favorably for the U.S., and Canada will want to set things up more favorably for Canada.

Where these two agendas disagree, the negotiations commence. Where they agree, we shake hands and congratulate one another on how wonderful we are.

I would say the U.S. and Canada get along pretty well as far as siblings go, despite the occasional pillow fight.

But considering how little gunfire we exchange between one another -- and most of that accidental -- I would say we get along much better than most countries do, and I can't see that as a bad thing.

As for those standing around in the streets holding up tasteless signs, we don't pay any more attention to them down here than you do up there.

The day I start taking political advice from people standing in the middle of the street wearing rainbow wigs is the day I'll consider myself unfit to vote.

a VERY BIG

Rebuilding relations is fine and dandy, but rebuilding nations is another matter...LOL

DeusEx - thank you for reminding me of Mike the Knife Harris's Ontario.

Being a francophone, for me, voting for Harper's Conservatives would be suicidal. They don't believe in Canada's linguistic duality, and would like nothing better than to axe the Official Languages Act...

And if they don't believe in Canada's linguistic duality, I have to wonder what they think of our multiculturalist policy...

I lived under Harris' Ontario, I wasn't too pleased to say the least....
I remeber the double cohort, the nursing shortages, the privatization of the electric company that raped us in the ass, I remember the poor getting poorer (my dad/gm worker) he voted for him, which did him no good at all....

That was one administration gone wrong...... It's kind of hard to mix conservative ideology with liberal ideology and make it work...
He cut way too much and left us hanging by the balls.... But i'm sure he had his palms greased... ps, there is a libertarian party of canada if anybody's intersted in that...

Originally posted by TrueLies
That was one administration gone wrong...... It's kind of hard to mix conservative ideology with liberal ideology and make it work...

and that is why a two-party system doesn't work.

I remember the oxymoron that was the Progressive Conservative party. what a sham.

I like our political system, up here. The problem is our failign economy and poor leaders. Paul Martin is struggling to keep his head above water, Jack layton is...uhh...crazy, Harper worships on the altar of Bush, and ol' Gilles is just left out.

DE

Originally posted by DeusEx
The problem is our failign economy and poor leaders.

I thought the economy was doing well up there?? If one thing is for certain they need to start pushing for more innovator's and small business owner's, these are the guys who carry most of the weight on their shoulders when it comes to the economy... They hire more employees, usually they pay higher then minimum wage, benefits are better, and it's just better for all parties involved including the countries economy.... I think Canada is slowly moving away from manufacturing and I can only hope it steps more towards small business and innovatation.... Keeps it intersting...

One thing that will be great for canada is that new gigantic light they built for scientists to do research... anybody can use it and if i'm not mistaken their is a HUGE lineup already from people around the world to go and use that for a variety of different research projects... Second is the diamond mind they are about to unload on in saskatchewan... If youwant to get stocks in that i'd recommend you go to keningston minerals... Not sure how much they are but their as cheap as their going to get before it gets too big...

Don't worry, the Canadian economy is going to boom pretty soon, and when it does, hold on to your pants...

[edit on 2-12-2004 by TrueLies]

Originally posted by TrueLies
I thought the economy was doing well up there??

Well it is...sorta, the high dollar is really putting a crimp in the exporters pocket books, allthough it is helping the importers. Albertas economy is also doing stellar because of the price of Oil. And Sask. is finally pulling itself out of economic stagnation, due to the Pro-Technology legislation and incentives.

One thing that will be great for canada is that new gigantic light they built for scientists to do research...

Heh? Care to elaborate a bit on that TrueLies?

Second is the diamond mind they are about to unload on in saskatchewan... If youwant to get stocks in that i'd recommend you go to keningston minerals...

Could be another BreX though. I'm an investor and I normally shun anything like that way too much risk.

Don't worry, the Canadian economy is going to boom pretty soon, and when it does, hold on to your pants...

Yeah I really hope so, I just hope we don't sell out all of our precious natural resources in the frenzy. We need those for future economic security.

Originally posted by Otts
Being a francophone, for me, voting for Harper's Conservatives would be suicidal. They don't believe in Canada's linguistic duality, and would like nothing better than to axe the Official Languages Act...

And if they don't believe in Canada's linguistic duality, I have to wonder what they think of our multiculturalist policy...

Easy for you to say living in Quebec - where the govt ignores the Official Languages Act AND bilingualism....the rest of Canada wastes $billions converting everything english/french...but in Quebec everything remains all french

Don't get me wrong - I love Quebec and spend alot of time there....and you need to preserve your culture...but realistically, French is going to be passed very soon (if not already) as the 2nd language used by Canadians

And to imply that conservatives are against muti-culturalism is fear mongereing at best.

Originally posted by rayzor11

Don't get me wrong - I love Quebec and spend alot of time there....and you need to preserve your culture...but realistically, French is going to be passed very soon (if not already) as the 2nd language used by Canadians

I live in Montreal' suburbs, There is a lot of french, I must admit and the english is not very popular exept for some parts where there is a lot of anglophones
A lot of my friends don't even understand english...but I think that Quebec is just a different province and the language is the only thing that separates us from the rest of canada. I think that french is a great heritage we got! I like it to be able to speak french and we have like our community in North america with european style! But I won't treat the rest of Canada like crap just like a few of Quebecois extremist here, who are mostly pro-Quebec....I love Canada and I love Quebec, do you like french-canadians guys, frankly??????? I really hope so!

Ameliaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Originally posted by DeusEx

I have a lurking suspicion that Bush is striving to rebuild relations....on his terms.

Agreed. It's usually called horsetrading. Ie., you do this for me and I'll show you mine. ...(self censored)

I'm a dual American-Canadian citizen, American by birth but raised in Canada - and I like it that way. I like what America used to be - and the old American Constitution and Bill of Rights. ...Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms doesn't measure up at all but then, it hasn't been gutted either.

...I agree that Canada doesn't rely on the US military for protection - ie., from what or from whom? ...The only possible threat might have been from Russia - and the access point was Alaska anyway. ...Canada is a peacekeeping nation, more like Switzerland than Britain. We don't have enemies and the only nation with its eye on our resources is the USA. ...Peaceful is a good way to be I think, and what the USA was originally.

Not that Canada is perfect - our record with aboriginals and the French is an embarrassment. But hey, we keep trying, and we're not afraid to learn.

...Besides the missile shield, I suspect Bush is pushing for water rights behind those closed doors - and I don't trust Martin not to fold. ...Harper would bend right over tho, so it's another case of the best of the worst. ...I have no objection to sharing fresh water with my American family, but draw the line at giving it to international industry, which is how it plays out. ...and how Mulroney set everything up, for that matter.

lol. These are interesting times.



.

[edit on 3-12-2004 by soficrow]

Originally posted by Amelia
do you like french-canadians guys, frankly??????? I really hope so!

I know you weren't speaking to me, but I really liked french men.... *purrrr*
My mom was born in Quebec, her mom's side of the family are all from Quebec, my grandma and grandpa met in Quebec... I like Quebec especially for skiing, but one thing that bothers me is that in soutern ontario I had to learn french up to 10th grade, and people in quebec that are my age and younger don't even know how to speak english... Why?

ps: the pic in my avatar was actually taken at mt.tremblant on new years eve... In the little village at the bottom of the mountains...
Quebec is beautiful and the language is sexy and very romantic...
In regards to a bilingualist country, it's up to both sides to come together, we have already set a precedent for us and the future generations to come, I just hope that quebec schools and the community will also be like that sometime soon.

[edit on 3-12-2004 by TrueLies]

Cool....

We are good fun people to be with, we party and have a lot of fun hehehehehe
I know some quebecois are intolerant of english because that comes from long long time ago...but more and more, english and french are getting along very well
True, english should be learn very early..very important! Look at my english, it's not always very good....but it makes me practice!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ameliaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx