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Why Does Noone Set Up A Real, Comprehensive Test For Astrology?

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posted on Jul, 10 2014 @ 07:34 PM
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a reply to: crowdedskies

Howdy,
Fair enough. You seem more knowledgeable than I do, so I will grant you this point. But, if that is the case, what about twins who were born in a sufficiently short time as to not have that happen and yet lead very different lives? I may not understand your clock explanation, so would that be a possible scenario?
Also, why is it that birth is the determining factor? Do caesarean sections influence this? I ask out of a willingness to learn something, so I would appreciate a response.

cheers




posted on Jul, 10 2014 @ 08:04 PM
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a reply to: hydeman11

Happy to explain. The crucial time is the first breath.

I imagine most twins are born half hour to one hour or more apart in normal birth. It is necessary for the mother to catch her breath and for the next one to make way down. In caesarian section they could be born at what appears to be within minutes. I have no medical experience but suspect some are unconscious for a while, especially when there are sextuplets, etc and they are out in some kind of incubator.

People researching twins are likely to jump to conclusions and "fabricate" info even if unconsciously. It is very possible for the twins living totally different lives to tell the interviewer they were born at the same time when no exact record of the time was available , especially home birth.

Having said that , the character will tend to be the same even if a hour apart because planets move slowly. However, circumstances will be different because Astrological Houses moves faster as the wheel turns. So same personality but different lifestyles.





edit on 10-7-2014 by crowdedskies because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-7-2014 by crowdedskies because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 10 2014 @ 09:23 PM
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a reply to: crowdedskies

Howdy,
I appreciate your answering my questions. Perhaps I was too quick to dismiss astrology, having provided no real substantive studies to counter the claim... However, I do remain skeptical of the claims made. I don't understand the link between a child filling its lungs for the first time and the stars above it. If I may ask another question, what is the nature of the power of these constellations?
Thank you so far.



posted on Jul, 11 2014 @ 01:23 AM
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originally posted by: hydeman11
a reply to: crowdedskies

Howdy,
I appreciate your answering my questions. Perhaps I was too quick to dismiss astrology, having provided no real substantive studies to counter the claim... However, I do remain skeptical of the claims made. I don't understand the link between a child filling its lungs for the first time and the stars above it. If I may ask another question, what is the nature of the power of these constellations?
Thank you so far.


There is NO power at all from the constellations or planets. I would not be interested in astrology if it was based on such nonsense. As trology is based on the fundamental esoteric concept of "as above so below". In essense , this means that everything in Nature (or in the universe) replicates itself at different levels. On that basis , if I take a picture of the skies at the exact time of birth , I am also getting a blueprint of the psyche of the individual.

The state of the skies (position of planets) at a specific time represents potentialities . The fact that someone is born enables us to bring that potentiality down to earth. The way this is done is by drawing the map for the person and placing the wheel in such a position that the baby , if looking east , would be looking towards a constellation that would represent his first House of mundane affairs. Foe example , I was born at 4:30 am at the end of May. Therefore the sun would be in early degrees in Gemini but my ascendant (first house cusp would be Taurus because the sun would have be about 2 houes away from sunrise.

the astrological chart is like looking down to the north pole from far away in space , with twelve spokes emanating from earth and "catching" each of the many planets and also the sun within its segment at time of birth. Each segment representing an aspect of out lives (eg 2nh house : money; 7th house/segment : relatioships, etc)

By looking at the map we then take it to be an exact representaion or blueprint of the individual's character. Through symbolism we are able to then plot his development and progress as well as personality . If for example we see Mars behaving in a strange way in a particular segment (for example placed in opposition to Uranus) ,we then translate this to the urges in the unconscious which correlate with these two planets; each planet relates to a specific urge in the unconscious which is universal But that person will be born with that as a permanent feature.

If you want to predict , you look at what is happening in the skies as it correlates with what is happening in the psyche, with each person being affected in different ways because of different blueprint(birth chart)

Astrology is all about patterns , ryrhms and associations





edit on 11-7-2014 by crowdedskies because: (no reason given)

edit on 11-7-2014 by crowdedskies because: (no reason given)

edit on 11-7-2014 by crowdedskies because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 11 2014 @ 11:11 AM
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a reply to: crowdedskies

Howdy,
Thank you very much for the explanation. I've learned a good deal from that. However, it did not answer my question... Perhaps I phrased it poorly? I apologize. In what way, does the location on this astrological chart affect an individual? What mechanism is it that acts upon the individual?
For example, we can observe the effect of the moon's (and sun's) gravity on Earth. It is measurable, quantifiable. We can observe the solar radiation of light. It too is measurable, quantifiable. These two are accepted by mainstream science as astronomical "mechanisms" that act upon individuals. Is there anything other than the phrase "As above so below," because that isn't really a falsifiable mechanism... It's more of an assertion.
Again, apologies for my ignorance in this matter.
Regards,
Hydeman



posted on Jul, 11 2014 @ 12:01 PM
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originally posted by: TheJourney
Why is this not done? It should be.

What's to prove? That the alignment of the stars is going to indicate who you're going to marry, and when? What is the theoretical mechanism that would cause this to happen? And does it really indicate that your entire life is pre-ordained according to the time of your birth? No free will?

Astrology gets its appeal because people apply subjective meanings to events and then retrofit them into the non-specific readings. And on the other side of the coin, a reading can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. You're supposed to meet and fall in love with a dark-haired person? Then you start focusing on dark haired people and ignoring blondes.

Not only that, what's supposed to be the most important thing? Proximity? Are the influences of the Earth and Moon and Sun more important than Venus and Mars. or Uranus? So what about all these other planets they're discovering every day? Or the distant galaxies that we can't even see? How could one planet be more important than another just because they're slightly closer? A tiny fluctuation of gravity? That's like getting hit by one more snowflake in a blizzard.

I wouldn't worry about it though. Most of the major Western religions are built on foundations of astrology and mysticism. And they have the world all nice and figured out, right?

edit on 11-7-2014 by Blue Shift because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 11 2014 @ 01:14 PM
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originally posted by: hydeman11
a reply to: crowdedskies

Howdy,
Thank you very much for the explanation. I've learned a good deal from that. However, it did not answer my question... Perhaps I phrased it poorly? I apologize. In what way, does the location on this astrological chart affect an individual? What mechanism is it that acts upon the individual?
For example, we can observe the effect of the moon's (and sun's) gravity on Earth. It is measurable, quantifiable. We can observe the solar radiation of light. It too is measurable, quantifiable. These two are accepted by mainstream science as astronomical "mechanisms" that act upon individuals. Is there anything other than the phrase "As above so below," because that isn't really a falsifiable mechanism... It's more of an assertion.
Again, apologies for my ignorance in this matter.
Regards,
Hydeman


I have quoted your question in full to avoid misunderstanding. You may have missed the point. You are looking for an explanation of how the planets and constellation affect the individual (like the moon affects the tides).

They do not. They simply reflect the individual's states of mind and actions. You cannot read a person's mind but you can look at the skies to understand what goes on in that person's life

You want me to steer clear of "as above so below" but that is hard to do since astrology uses symbols and backs its conclusions with empirical evidence.

If I said that a certain planetary position at birth would make a female end up becoming a prostitute or ,at best, have extremely loose morals , I would be making a symbolic assertion. But if I went further and showed that in each chart that I drew up which had that configuration, they did end up in that profession then I would be providing empirical evidence.

It seems to me that Einstein , Freud and Jung can get away with abstract concepts and little physical evidence but astrologers who can prove correlations exists in the universe are not taken seriously.

Even though I work in the world of finance and consider myself to be shrewd in business, I do not have a problem with astrology. I am in fact writing a book called "A book of Rhythms, Patterns and Associations" and it is not just about astrology. It is about how I was always aware of associations and correlations in my life and how I benefited from it. No doubt Jung and possibly Einstein were aware of those. Jung called in synchronicity . Einstein must have another word for it. I have my own private words for it too.

Thanks for your questions. My answers are aimed at all the readers.

edit on 11-7-2014 by crowdedskies because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 11 2014 @ 01:32 PM
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originally posted by: hydeman11
Howdy,
Astrology has been tested, whether scientifically or not.
I'll let Mr. Carl Sagan talk about this... (6:30- on for relevant)
www.youtube.com...
He makes a compelling argument about the fate of twins, doesn't he? How could they have such different lives, even if one twin didn't really die young, why do so many twins live so differently?
Sometimes complex tests aren't necessary to learn. Sometimes, mere observations are strong indicators.
Cheers.


And what about someone like me and my twin.
We were born minutes apart, but he was three months younger than me.

Wonder how that would mess with an astrologer?



posted on Jul, 11 2014 @ 01:43 PM
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originally posted by: TheJourney
Astrology is something whose merits could actually be tested in a semi-objective way. I don't understand why controlled 'experiments' aren't set up to at least give strong evidence one way or another on the legitimacy of astrology. You'd have to get someone who truly has an extensive knowledge of astrology.


There is no reason to set up a test to "test astrology".

Science has no reason to do such a test since science sees astrology as pseudo-science hocuspocus anyway.

And those who believe in astrology...they don't need such a test either because they already believe in it.
edit on 7/11/2014 by NoRulesAllowed because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 11 2014 @ 04:36 PM
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originally posted by: HolgerTheDane2
We were born minutes apart, but he was three months younger than me.


Wut??



posted on Jul, 11 2014 @ 08:50 PM
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a reply to: crowdedskies

Hello,
Ah, apologies. I indeed misunderstood your explanation. So, to be clear, an astrologer believes that for some reason, the constellations/planets as viewed by people on Earth in reference to a circular clock reflect the state of mind/personality of an individual based on pre-assigned symbols related to those physical bodies in the cosmos? I am skeptical for lack of some kind of explanation of why... What mechanism is behind this reflection... But I do again appreciate the further clarification.

I am not versed in astrology, so perhaps I am unqualified to speak on that matter, but I do know a thing or two about the scientific method. Please do not be offended when I say this, but the claims of one person are often insignificant in science. By which I simply mean that you may have all the success in predicting things, but it is meaningless unless it is reproducible independently and under controlled conditions. Also, perhaps confirmation bias (remember the accurate predictions while forgetting the inaccurate predictions) could be at play, so that's why these predictions/readings would need to be under controlled conditions. Then the variable of sample size would need to be addressed... Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying astrology is inaccurate. I remain skeptical, yes, but I suppose I can make no claims one way or the other without proper testing...
Again, thank you for clarifying. I enjoy learning new things.
Regards



posted on Jul, 12 2014 @ 12:34 AM
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originally posted by: hydeman11
a reply to: crowdedskies

I am not versed in astrology, so perhaps I am unqualified to speak on that matter, but I do know a thing or two about the scientific method. Please do not be offended when I say this, but the claims of one person are often insignificant in science. By which I simply mean that you may have all the success in predicting things, but it is meaningless unless it is reproducible independently and under controlled conditions. Also, perhaps confirmation bias (remember the accurate predictions while forgetting the inaccurate predictions) could be at play, so that's why these predictions/readings would need to be under controlled conditions. Then the variable of sample size would need to be addressed... Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying astrology is inaccurate. I remain skeptical, yes, but I suppose I can make no claims one way or the other without proper testing...
Again, thank you for clarifying. I enjoy learning new things.
Regards


Exactly, this is the point behind the OP. We could literally set up a test which could be statistically analyzed and it would give strong evidence one way or another. I don't understand why people are like 'what's the point in testing it?' Shouldn't we test...everything that can be tested? I don't see how submitting something to controlled testing could ever be a bad thing. And thinking about it a bit more, I thought of a possible solution to a conundrum an earlier poster pointed out to the method of testing I outlined in the OP, namely finding a 'legitimate astrologer,' who we could all agree is qualified and truly knew what they were talking about. That's not even necessarily important. Perhaps a better way, would be to get these sorts of essay-form questionnaires filled out, with the birth chart, and draw out correlations between all of the individuals. Find what astrological aspects are the same for a number of individuals, and see if there is legitimate correlations in their personalities and mindsets that relates to what they have in common astrologically. I'm not claiming this would be 100%, but it's a good idea for setting up a semi-objective method of testing where we could have some legitimate data to refer to. Rather than, 'that's stupid it's obviously not true' versus 'no trust me it's true.'



posted on Jul, 12 2014 @ 07:19 PM
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a reply to: hydeman11

I think we are getting somewhere but I realise that I cannot continue on the same wavelength. Correlations coming from the principle of "as above so below" can only be felt by those open to it.

On the positive side, a lot of empirical evidence can prove that the symbolism in Astrology works. As Journey suggested, tests can be carried out.

Whilst I can draw astrological charts using log tables and astronomical information, nowadays everybody can use software. All you need then to do is gather enough charts of known people and examine the patterns. Sadly you will need to aquaint yourself with some principles and dogma of astrology first and you may not be willing to do so. The Gauquelins did make the effort and found correlations even though they adopted a scientific approach.


edit on 12-7-2014 by crowdedskies because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 12 2014 @ 07:44 PM
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a reply to: crowdedskies
Howdy,
I really do appreciate your helping me to better understand astrology. I learned a lot from you, and for that I am grateful.
As for testing, I've done some more digging, trying to find some kinda free scholarly source to get to the bottom of this... It's been tough to find a full source. I've found a couple of news articles referring to the findings of scientists, like this one on twins...
www.washingtontimes.com...
Now, had I seen this article before you explained to me the properties of the clock, where minutes could affect things greatly, I would have found the large sample size and long period of time a compelling couple of nails in the coffin of astrology... So I suppose it is possible that all of those twins were born at different points on the "clock."
I did successfully find a scientific study of six astrologers, identified as experts... Apparently they didn't even all agree with each other, let alone have a higher success rate than the control group... (Also, the lead scientist was apparently an ex-astrologer. Neat.)
www.scientificexploration.org...
Now, I'm willing to accept that six is a small sample size and that these "experts" might not have been truly experts, but I'm thinking the evidence is fairly compelling if they were experts...
From the evidence I've got, I can't with certainty say that astrology is without merit, but I'm afraid it certainly seems to look that way. : /
Regards,
Hydeman



posted on Jul, 13 2014 @ 06:05 AM
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a reply to: hydeman11

Thank you for making your own research. However, I find the first article in the Washington Time extremely dubious. I think it is a total fabrication - 2000 babies closely monitored since 1958 and suddenly this report comes out 2003 and comes from the "Journal of Consciousness Studies". Furthermore, none were twins ; they were talking about "time twins" if you read the article fully. Nobody would be sitting in a room over 50 years and maintaining their staff in order to track 2000 people born at same time but not related to each other. How do you follow 2000 over 50 years , interviewing them, tracking their lifes and feelings . You would need to invest into a very expensive team who have ready access to people private lives over a period of 50 years. Ocasionally our TV channels like to end the news with some kind of "findings" from "experts". It makes entertaining TV but is all a fabrication.

Even if such a research of say 20 time-twins could be carried out(Again , I remind you that time-twins are not related), there would only be a complete distortion of findings. For example, if Dave took a job in Wales as an hospital supervisor and David took a job in Scotland as a prison officer/administrator, our intrepid researchers would say that this shows that they went in totally different directio. Yet, the astrologer , who has always considered hospitals and prisons to be 12th house matters would see the correlation.

As for the other article, I doubt that the six experts had sufficient insight into their own subject.



edit on 13-7-2014 by crowdedskies because: (no reason given)

edit on 13-7-2014 by crowdedskies because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 13 2014 @ 06:22 AM
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originally posted by: TheJourney

originally posted by: AkumaStreak
a reply to: TheJourney

Because everyone already knows it's bull#.

Would you set up an experiment to see if water is dry?


Well, clearly a lot of people believe it, so nowhere near 'everyone' thinks its bull#...or else it wouldn't even exist..and there wouldn't be all sorts of books and websites on the topic...if it's obviously bull#, then a test of the sort described in OP could go a long way towards proving that.



Do you really believe that? It's like saying wearing my red shoes to the bowling alley is gonna make me bowl a 250. It's called superstition, even superstitious people know it's bull #, doesn't stop them from partaking in their "superstition."

A "duh" moment, if you will.



posted on Jul, 13 2014 @ 07:00 AM
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I think those who are showing negativity with astrology are probably Sagittarians or Pisceans.

I would welcome a full blown, peer reviewed study and would suggest an Aquarian, or perhaps a Leo, as the best character type to lead such a study.

Regards



posted on Jul, 13 2014 @ 07:10 AM
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a reply to: TheJourney

Astrolopgy was and is used today by the elite, who have decided that its not for the common man and it has existed since time began and man watched the stars. The importance ancient civilisation gave to it should be an indication of how much they relied and used its many applications.

It went out of fashion for the public and has been ridiculed deliberately to keep the public away from its benefits. Certainly there are bad astrologers and they probably fleece the public but one has to realise that the astrologers were working for the kings, popes and today its business men; these are the people who ensure its image in the media is totally ridiculous and the public can laugh at sun-sun astrology.



posted on Jul, 13 2014 @ 02:38 PM
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originally posted by: Shiloh7
a reply to: TheJourney

Astrolopgy was and is used today by the elite, who have decided that its not for the common man and it has existed since time began and man watched the stars.

Certainly there are bad astrologers and they probably fleece the public but one has to realise that the astrologers were working for the kings, popes and today its business men; these are the people who ensure its image in the media is totally ridiculous and the public can laugh at sun-sun astrology.


Yes, sun-sign astrology as you see in newspaper horoscopes is mocked. This has never bothered astrologers and has never bothered me. In fact , the more people think astrology is nonsense the better it is for astrologers.

edit on 13-7-2014 by crowdedskies because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 21 2014 @ 04:12 PM
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There is more to it than that. The 'experts' that I know in Astrology also use the Chinese ways in which the year you were born is also taken in to effect, along with elements. Take me for example:

Taurus, Pig (1983) Wombat

The most feminine element is water, if I remember right, and I actually have it twice (I am a male). The Astrology goes as far as claiming to be able to pick your compatible partners by year and month. According to my Astrology, I need to find a woman with a lot of energy to balance my water... or something like that (LOL).

When you take this in to account, it gets complex and time consuming. The monthly plus the yearly Astrology adds a lot of complexity to a persons supposed personality. Lots of time and money to produce results that probably wouldn't convince anyone who has chosen to believe in Astrology.

I think Astrology is nonsense. I would be very skeptical of research that came out suggesting it's actually on to something. That the month and year a person is born somehow influences a persons behavioral makeup.



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