Why Does Noone Set Up A Real, Comprehensive Test For Astrology?

Astrology is something whose merits could actually be tested in a semi-objective way. I don't understand why controlled 'experiments' aren't set up to at least give strong evidence one way or another on the legitimacy of astrology. You'd have to get someone who truly has an extensive knowledge of astrology. You'd have to get a fairly large sample of people. You'd have to set up some sort of essay-questionnaire in which people write all sorts of aspects of their personality and mentality. This would have to be anonymous, which should hopefully deter dishonesty. All of the relevant information to creating a complete astrology chart would be given as well, so that you would have all of the astrological influences and a comprehensive description of their mentality/personality.

Now, with just summing all of us up into the 12 zodiac signs, any apparent incongruity can just be chalked up to the various planetary influences which aren't included in the basic zodiac sign. But with this, all of the astrological information would be there, so that excuse wouldn't hold. The expert astrologer would see all of the astrological charts of these people, but not the questionnaires. He would create a personality profile for all of these individuals. These would then be cross-referenced with the questionnaires. Some basic statistical methods would be used to discount outliers and dishonest individuals. And then, you would have fairly strong, and not entirely but somewhat objective evidence either proving or disproving astrology. Why is this not done? It should be.

a reply to: TheJourney

Because everyone interested in the scientific method already knows it's bull#.

Would you set up an experiment to see if water is dry?

p.s., it has probably been done a hundred times. The conclusion was probably obvious...

originally posted by: AkumaStreak
a reply to: TheJourney

Because everyone already knows it's bull#.

Would you set up an experiment to see if water is dry?

Well, clearly a lot of people believe it, so nowhere near 'everyone' thinks its bull#...or else it wouldn't even exist..and there wouldn't be all sorts of books and websites on the topic...if it's obviously bull#, then a test of the sort described in OP could go a long way towards proving that.

Good question, I have thought the same thing myself. And the experiment you propose seems valid.

However, I think the reason it is so difficult to test whether astrology works is because of what you say (quoted below.)

originally posted by: TheJourney
You'd have to get someone who truly has an extensive knowledge of astrology.

People I know who have really studied astrology will say that TRUE astrology is so difficult and so nuanced that making a prediction a hit or miss proposition is unfair. They wouldn't presume to take part in an experiment like this. When it works -- it can be uncanny.

But it usually is not possible to make a specific or reliable prediction because there is too much complexity and interpretation.

Skeptics will say that it more that complex -- it is actually just ordinary idiotic to believe in astrology. But if you look at time, fate, cause and effect, where we are, what we are connected to -- how the past never changes and the future is always in flux -- there may be something to astrology. IMO.

I believe that a 'mars effect' was detected.

en.m.wikipedia.org...

When you say 'astrology' do you mean if people conform and act according to personality types determined by when they were born in the timeline?
I often thought that people subconciously adopt some traits according to their star sign.

How many times have you heard people say
"Oh that's me! Typical (insert zodiacal sign)
It is human nature to perpetuate habits, traits and often repeat behaviours throughout a lifetime so it appears that they conform to a certain personality type. Early man saw this as being influenced by earths position in space and ran with it.
Until fairly recently in mans history the disciplines of Astrology and Astronomy were one and the same. Magic and medicine have similar origins and divergence, the finest minds of the ages dwelt on all of these and I believe that if astrology had real merit mankind would be using it big time.

Unless some secret societies have mastered it and use it clandestinely. But that's another conspiracy!

There are universities in India where degrees are offere in Astrology, in the UK there are the Mayo school of astrology that offers diplomas. I would like to point out that these places have no interest in teaching people the far older and easier hose sign method because there isnt much to it and so by having placs that teach it, actually limits what they teach. But there isnt a system for accreditation in many places in the world: excpet India and they teach Vedic astrology not western astrology.

To apply the scientific method, I don't think testing people who believe in astrology (or it's practicioners) is the way to go. Instead, we should have a theory on the mechanism by which astrology operates. More specifically, HOW does an object's position in space unconsciously impact my actions, personality, and decision making?

a reply to: TheJourney

There have been several, at least . . . over the years.

And they ALWAYS came up with ZIP, 0%, 0.000000% in behalf of astrology.

Flipping a coin was more reliable, IIRC.

i belive its bs but its kinda a neat think to know how to do i learned it but i realized it was bs but man the girls loved that i could do readings

one of the teachers told me aside from its all bs but cool to know the closest thing she heard was the gravitational pull effects the brain as its formed lol ud think the moon would of done alot more than planets

but man it sounds nice on paper

a reply to: TheJourney

*shrug*

People believe all kinds of stuff. Popular belief doesn't make something real, however.

I used to do cards for folks over the phone (900 numbers) back in the early 90's. There is a method used called "Cold Reading" which, combined with a CC # make separating believers from their money dead easy. Not that I am especially proud of it or anything. It was just a boiler room job like any other. The difference was it paid better than most.

Astrology is the same con; you just have to make the chart general enough to fit almost everyone, while still "seeming" fairly specific to the mark. The outcome of this is called the Barnum Effect, for fairly obvious reasons. Like the dangers of smoking, it has been widely known and reported on since the 1960's, yet people keep falling for it.

Here is the original cold reading from the early 60's, created by B.R. Forer, which is still pretty good today:

You have a great need for other people to like and admire you. You have a tendency to be critical of yourself. You have a great deal of unused capacity which you have not turned to your advantage. While you have some personality weaknesses, you are generally able to compensate for them. Your sexual adjustment has presented some problems for you. Disciplined and self-controlled outside, you tend to be worrisome and insecure inside. At times you have serious doubts as to whether you have made the right decision or done the right thing. You prefer a certain amount of change and variety and become dissatisfied when hemmed in by restrictions and limitations. You pride yourself as an independent thinker and do not accept others” statements without satisfactory proof. You have found it unwise to be too frank in revealing yourself to others. At times you are extroverted, affable, sociable, while at other times you are introverted, wary, reserved. Some of your aspirations tend to be pretty unrealistic. Security is one of your major goals in life.

Some of the language is a little dated, but it still fits about 90% of people who read it. They actually think it applies specifically to them.

a reply to: TheJourney

People who believe in astrology project the supposed qualities of the star sign onto themselves. If given a questionnaire asking them to describe their personality they will likely choose the characteristics that define their star-sign self-image.

There are over 7 billion people on this planet, and 12 star signs. How exactly does the position of a few planets in space, tens or hundreds of millions of miles away, define what sort of a week 600,000,000 people are going to have?

You don't have to test it to see that it's moronic.

i'm an aquaman, but i tried talking to fish once and i don't think it worked. and my horoscopes never make any sense.

"June 28th: avoid plastic six-pack rings and frisky dolphins. expect a visit from a long lost flounder."



and hey, a lot of this article goes over my skull, but maybe you guys are gooder than i am at getting stuff.

A recent poll by the National Science Foundation showed that more than 40% of Americans think astrology is a science — a rather shocking result (and no, it wasn't because respondents were conflating astrology with astronomy). Equally as frustrating is the news that it's at its highest level since 1983...

Indeed, astrology works hand-in-hand with sentiments suggesting that the events in our lives are a "matter of destiny" and that certain things are just "meant to be." At the same time, it obfuscates the role of nature/nurture in the development of our psychologies, while ignoring the open-ended nature of the future (unless one subscribes to a rigid version of cosmological determinism — a rather heady philosophical problem about free will that's undoubtedly not on the minds of astrologers)...

Astrology is also bad for us and our interpersonal relationships. Because it tells us to pre-judge people according to their astrological signs, it basically makes us complete assholes. As Benjamin Radford noted in Discovery News, it's not dissimilar to racism:

Both astrology and racial stereotypes are based on a framework of belief that basically says: "Without even meeting you, I believe something about you. I can expect this particular sort of behavior or trait (stubbornness, laziness, arrogance, etc.) from members of this particular group of people (Jews, blacks, Aries, Pisces, etc.). When an astrologer finds out a person's astrological sign, he or she will bring to that experience a pre-existing list of assumptions (prejudices) about that person's behavior, personality and character. In both cases, the prejudices will cause people to seek out and confirm their expectations.

The most recent significant blind test of astrology was made on september 11 2001.

All you have to do is check all the astrology predictictions made in and around New York that day.

a reply to: TheJourney

Astrology is a very empirical science and this is something that few people know. In fact it is both symbolic and empirical.

First the symbol (eg dividing into twelve segments) then the empirical substance from correlating with what is observable. Over centuries ,correlations are observed and rules and dogma created. If ,for example , you look at the birth of a human being and what that person experiences throughout life until death , you effectively see the twelve signs in action.

I wrote a poem when I was a teenager which gave me the meaning of all the twelve signs once and for all. I will not put the poem here but it goes through the sequence from birth to death.

for example :
1)Newly born (aries) - sees everything new ; wants everything now; pure energy ; pure agression
2)Looks around him and sees things ; puts in his mouth ; touches , tastes and establishes a value system (Taurus )
3)Moves and changes places to find out more (Gemini - communication)
4)Having learned he establishes a sense of who he is (Cancer - home)
5)Expresses himself (Leo); recreatiom
6)All play no work leads t disaster . Hence has to sacrifice and take on burden of work (Virgo)
and so on....

Having the 12 symbolic divisions , we can then imagine a chest of twelve draws (like a filing system) and put things that correlate together in the same drawn. Over the centuries this is what astrologers have done. Now we have the dogma (meaning of signs and houses)

The error people make is that they see astrology as a predictive art. In fact it is nothing more that the observation of rythms , patterns and associations. Thee are countless ways of doing this. For example "people with red hair are short-tempered". That is an empirical observation. So red hair means short-tempered and impatient. Mars is called the rd planet and seems actually red to the naked eye.

I believe that I can pick a Robert from a crowd of say twenty men. This is because I have seen a correlation in the facial features of all Roberts . No kidding.

So my point is that it does not achieve anything to try and prove astrology works. What should be done instead is to try and observe (and understand) why a particular aspect of character or an event can be detected in tea leaves, sand, colour of hair or astrology for that matter.

As above so below

originally posted by: crowdedskies
a reply to: TheJourney


I believe that I can pick a Robert from a crowd of say twenty men.

Now that's an experiment I could help with!

originally posted by: Rob48

originally posted by: crowdedskies
a reply to: TheJourney


I believe that I can pick a Robert from a crowd of say twenty men.

Now that's an experiment I could help with!

Very funny......Rob!

Howdy,
Astrology has been tested, whether scientifically or not. I'll let Mr. Carl Sagan talk about this... (6:30- on for relevant)
www.youtube.com...
He makes a compelling argument about the fate of twins, doesn't he? How could they have such different lives, even if one twin didn't really die young, why do so many twins live so differently?
Sometimes complex tests aren't necessary to learn. Sometimes, mere observations are strong indicators.
Cheers.

a reply to: hydeman11

An astrological chart is a wheel with twelve spokes with the planets in the background. Each of the twelve segments represents two hours as the wheel turns over a 24 hour period over the background of planets. Even if the twins were born 10 minutes apart , it would be sufficient for a planet to fall in a different segment.

One twin with jupiter in the second house (Rich in possessions and loves to indulge in the material). One twin with Jupiter in the 3rd house (blessed with enormous intelligence but not wealthy and a globe-trotter)

Sad that Sagan does not enquire first about how an astrological chart is drawn up and what the diagram means.