Just what would the world like us to do?

Originally posted by Frosty



What!?!?!? Maybe you forgot that Saddam attacked Kuwait FIRST. Kuwait had no feasible military, we came to their aid. We did not even dispose of Saddam the first time or impose a democracy!

no yet it was not your place to intervene but the UN did form a task force so that war was justified.

The second war with Iraq should have came 10 years earlier when he repeatedly violated UN Sanctions.

yeah with his ore weapons again huh? ahh dont worry we'll get those stone launching scumbags some day!

Those UN workers you speak of sure did have lots of experience. Experience at what?

you'll find those weapons inspectors did have americans on board.

Finding WMD's that Suddam said weren't there? Yes! Someone needed to do something about it.

oh wow these 45 min launch capable weapons huh?

Remember what happened when Hitler and Rothschild amassed a gigantic military, an illegal military, and nobody did a single thing about it?

you'll find the french did moan bitterly YET the nations where in no state to go and enforce this.

This is the same situation only Saddam continuely lied about the status of the WMDs. What makes you or anyone else think that this time was different?

actually you'll find that hitler was legally voted in and sadamm wasnt.
you'll also find that hitler didnt lie about any weapons and netheir did sadam acording to MI6 and the CIA.
the fact that it was fake and a lie might have something to do with it?

[edit on 1-12-2004 by devilwasp]

I have made a point of avoiding threads like this lately, but found some of the opinions expressed here to be unusually thoughtful for such a thread, and decided to chime in -- for good or ill.

The question this thread asks is a good one. I see all sorts of criticism directed at my nation (yes, I'm an American), much of it contradictory, and a distressingly large portion of it self-contradictory.

How can America respond to such barrages of criticism? Basically, the way we do. Those who criticize America for ignoring the advice of the world would do well to take an honest look at what we are given to work with.

I challenge any reader of this post to write up and propose a logical, coherent policy the U.S. could implement that would satisfy even a bare majority of the complaints that are hurled in our general direction all the livelong day.

When you have written up and finalized this lengthy document, post it on ATS and see how well it stands up to criticism. If you can't do this, why would you expect us to?

The situation in the world came to be the way it is for a lot of reasons, some better than others. Likewise, America is what it is and is doing what it is doing for a lot of reasons, some better than others.

You can love us or hate us for that, but if you adopt either extreme as your view of America, you are deceiving yourself and not accepting who we truly are: your imperfect brothers and sisters in an imperfect world.

We try to do good things and make mistakes just like everyone else does. I cannot see how this is a crime. Does any critic of America honestly think he could do a better job if he were in our place? Nobody's perfect, and to deny that is to prove the point.

I'm not saying "let he who is without sin cast the first stone", I'm saying we shouldn't be throwing them in the first place.

The world would probably like us to stop invading countries without any real reason. The world would also probably like us to quit acting like we can survive without them. That and, the world would probably like us to quit acting like we're the best and everyone else is #.

Isolationalism is not going to work in today's world, and while I may have (still do) agreed with and supported the Iraq war, unilateral action isn't going to work out in the end either.

Fact is, everyone is linked through our various economies, so to a degree many things that go on in the world are going to be our business.

Don't worry though, I'm sure that soon we'll stop wasting money on AID's aid (...) to Africa or donations to international charities, since those don't directly affect our interests, and then in turn you will all shut up about how selfish we are.

Another Fact: The US is incabable of doing anything right in the world's eye.

majic i'll take you up on that, should be interesting!
so are you meaning both military and economical or just one?

Originally posted by Langolier

Another Fact: The US is incabable of doing anything right in the world's eye.

WRONG!
it did WW2 ok now the world doesnt like you because you behave like you are superior to the world and can bush everyone around.
thats what we hate.

Excellent idea Majic. I would hope it would stray from finger pointing dont do that kind of thing to a much more drawn out thougt provoking strategy to think about. Cool.

And devil, even here to us it sometimes feels like we tend to be the overprotective big brother. I agree, we need to butt out or at least take it a bit slower. Bush's personality is that of a bull in a china shop at times.

One thing I ask though is in your strategy, if you ask us to stay home with our war toys for a bit, will you please grace us with the embedded war tourist so we can keep our propoganda staight. Just kiddin !!


John

[edit on 12/1/2004 by just_a_pilot]

Originally posted by devilwasp
majic i'll take you up on that, should be interesting!
so are you meaning both military and economical or just one?

If it is capable of satisfying 51% or more of the criticism directed at America by all of its detractors, you win.

As for limiting the scope to one field, such as economics or military, it is only fair to point out that doing so ignores the significant fact that satisfying complaints in one area often generates them in another. Thus a policy limited to one field could not be classified as logical and coherent.

If you are to address the problem in a manner suited to my challenge, you must do so under the same conditions the people of America are expected to address them: comprehensively.

Attempting to do this will hopefully demonstrate why no one in human history has been able to accomplish it to date. Should you be the first, I might be able to hook you up with a very nice job. But only if you succeed.

About what the world wishes from the US, what Worldwatcher said. A lot of times, when a treaty like Kyoto fails, it's because the US torpedoes it. And even if 168 countries are for a treaty, if the US opposes it, it won't pass, or it'll be greatly altered.

Also, a lot of us would like the US to understand that if we disagree with you on something and make it known, it doesn't automatically mean we hate the US - it means we have our own opinion, and often our own national interests to defend.

How about we ask the opposite question... What would the US like the world to do?

And btw... CONGRATS Majic on getting the WATS award!!!

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by Frosty
Delicate situations? When Somalian warlords where stealling food intended to go to the "truly" needy which was paid for by US dollars, we had a right to stick our nose in that business because it involved us as well.

really? so it was YOUR food and YOUR citizens huh?
dont think so.
delicate situation are situations which are not perfect but are not the worst they could be. thats how peace is established.

When Kim Jong Ill threatens our ally S.Korea and stockades an army that in turn allows for the inadequate feeding of his civilians, it is our business.

if the south korean's ask for your help then it is but until then no it isnt.

When a mad dictator named Suddam violates his terms of conditions and surrender layed out by the UN repeatadly, it becomes our business to intervene before the situation escalates to an all out war.

i take it these are the WMD claims huh? the massive arsesonel of one ton of radioactive (completely safe i might add) ore and one missplaced shell of chem warheads which most probably was supplied by the previos "freedom" president who is the current presidents father.

When a country whose leader praised the kidnapping of US workers in his country and does nothing to help relieve the situation but advertises for further events of similarity, we need to step in.

you need to save the workers not destroy the country.

When South American drug lords who illegal supply the US each year with tons of coc aine, and that nations government does not have the resources to combat, we need to take over the situation.

no you need to get the UN to take action. aka you need to push and get countries around the globe to help.
now lets see 1 superpower versus drug lords. tough battle.
UN versus drug lords. easy battle.

[edit on 1-12-2004 by devilwasp]

- Nope, not my food nor my citizens. But that food was being delivered by means of US tax dollar, and I don't want to see food going to starving people in the hands of ruthless warloads, maybe you do? www.globalsecurity.org... "The operation was successful in stopping the famine and saving an estimated 200,000 lives, as well as de-escalating the high-intensity civil war into low-level, local skirmishes."

- I suppose if South Korea didn't want our help they would ask for our 30,000 troops to back off from the border and leave the country. Think they'd ask for that with a whack-job like Kim bordering them?

- Whether these weapons were supplied by us while he was in "compliance" (notice that word in quotations, a word that really hasn't been assosiated with Saddam and UN sanctions) with the CIA or by eskimos, part of his terms of surrender were to get rid of those weapons, and guess what? He never did. It wasn't that Clinton didn't have the balls to do the right thing, it's that his balls were in someone's hand other than his wife's.


- Take a wild guess on how long those hostages were in Iranian terrorist hands, guess how many times Carter unsuccesful tried to "plea" with the Iranians to let them go, and guess on who's inaguration day they were released? If the leaders of the country are applauding the actions, you don't think it necessary to change their attitudes?

- UN support? How long do we need to wait for that to come through? Plus I believe the UN has already proclaimed human rights violations in Columbia and has spent military aid on the region.

Originally posted by Otts


How about we ask the opposite question... What would the US like the world to do?

The US would like the world to stop acting in their own interests and instead act in ours. (Deep down at least)

Realistically though... what do we want them to do... be quiet perhaps? Stay out of our way? Stop criticisizing us for acting in our own interests?

You think (I'm not necessarrily talking directly to the person I just quoted, FYI) the US was doing good by sticking its nose in everyone's business before and durring WWII, but not after? What should the US really have done durring WWII? Taking into consideration the world's advice, I think we should have done this: Made a treaty with Hitler, and only fought defensively against the Japanese. I mean, they did attack us on our own territory, but did that mean we had the right to fight them all the way back to their homeland?

Hmm... no... that sounds rediculous and down right stupid, oh wait, the mixed messages sent (yelled) to us by the rest of the world sound the same way...

"MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS!"
"SEND US FINANCIAL AND HUMANITARIAN AID BUT DON'T YOU DARE TRY AND CONTROL HOW IT'S USED!"

What about Ohio Mr Frosty, whats up there?

What about Guantanamo Bay, whatever happened to Justice?

www.fairgofordavid.org...

In Australia we have had the case of Albert Langer, wrongfully convicted and imprisoned by the government in 1999.

www.austlii.edu.au...

and in Western Australia where I come from we have laws to reverse the presumption of innocence, and laws for seizure of property which do not rely on any form of criminal conviction, and do not allow for appeal...

These laws are in direct contravention of the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights of which Australia is a signatary which our parliment knowingly breaches.

Originally posted by Otts
About what the world wishes from the US, what Worldwatcher said. A lot of times, when a treaty like Kyoto fails, it's because the US torpedoes it.

Here's the inside scoop on that: The U.S. approves treaties we think will benefit us, and rejects treaties we think will not benefit us. Try not to let that get around, because it is better for us if people assume we're idiots and keep underestimating us.

As for Kyoto, based on my research, it is pretty darn obvious why the U.S. Senate would never ratify it. It has nothing to do with Bush, although propagandists want you to think otherwise. Besides, it is so much easier to blame Bush for everything rather than keep track of the realities of global politics.

Believe what you want. If you want to go to the bargaining table thinking we're just a bunch of arrogant cowboys, your self-deceit will allow us to send you away naked and in our debt. Your call.

Originally posted by Otts
Also, a lot of us would like the US to understand that if we disagree with you on something and make it known, it doesn't automatically mean we hate the US - it means we have our own opinion, and often our own national interests to defend.

I literally said "Amen!" out loud when I read this. You are so right! The fact is that everyone has their own interests, and that they will often conflict. That makes us neither angels or devils, just fellow human beings.

There are many legitimate things to complain about regarding my country, I am very well aware of that, and I want to know what they are! But having to wade through a bunch of hateful bigotry to find it out makes a difficult task nearly impossible.

Originally posted by Otts
And btw... CONGRATS Majic on getting the WATS award!!!

Thanks! Needless to say, I am in distinguished company. I studied the styles of previous WATS recipients, so who knows? It may be a factor. I can say that I have learned a tremendous amount from you guys, that's for sure!

Now, to try fruitlessly to live up to the responsibilites that come with the badge...


[edit on 12/1/2004 by Majic]

Originally posted by Majic
Now, to try fruitlessly to live up to the responsibilites that come with the badge...

Hope you fare better than I did! *jokingly self-deprecating laughter*

I understand what you are saying. The frustaition comes from hate being tossed out at us in many many posts and beyond into mainstream media. It is belittling when people say they hate the President mainly because it bleeds down to us. It is a fair connection to say that if you hate our leader or country then you can deduce that you hate us.............we put him there.

I think Majics challenge is fair. I do think that all currently active members of ATS should be invited to join in and some ground rules more precisely laid out. I would not want it turn into an "oh yeah well you said this so there" type of thing.

If members are invited a poll should be taken by all who participate as to if they reside in Great Brittan or countries abroad like the U.S. Just to get a balance of responses so 1000 respondents arent from the U.S. and 399 from elswhere. It should be as even a possible.

Just my thought.

John

Originally posted by Otts
Hope you fare better than I did! *jokingly self-deprecating laughter*

At the risk of devolving into a mutual admiration society postfest, I thought you did great!

I learned a great deal from the style and tone of your posts and those of the other WATS winners. You truly are Way Above Top Secret!

Hehe, lest this devolve indeed into self-congratulating or reciprocal-congratulating... you posted the "Ignorance is winning" thread, and for that you deserve that medal.

Now on to business... I just read up on Majic's challenge on page 2 (sorry, multitasking, so I didn't read all the thread). I think it would indeed be foolish to pretend that any powerful nation in history could ever satisfy even 51 percent of its critics. When I was in Africa last year, I met some people from USAID and the Peace Corps. I know America has done good and still does good.

However... as much as Americans feel the world don't understand them, as much the rest of the world sometimes feels that the Americans don't understand it. Just the fact that some posters will say "they're jealous of our freedom" about people who criticize - or yes, hate - American policy, shows the extent of that misunderstanding.

The United States is so powerful, right now, that in terms of diplomacy, it could steamroll over the rest of the world. The US does it to further its own national interests, for sure, and that's understandable. But what you guys have to understand is that seeing the US "going it alone" in some instances spreads fear, in other countries, that they will become politically irrelevant, and so will their national interests.

I've seen a lot of accusations levelled at the United Nations on this board. One of the reasons a lot of people outside the US hold to the UN is that in our minds, if the UN disappears, the United States take the lead of the world. It may be irrational to fear it, but a lot of us do, and we don't see that as a good thing. We feel our own national interests would become irrelevant in such a scenario.

That's why a lot of the rest of the world wishes the US would be more of a team player.

It is belittling when people say they hate the President mainly because it bleeds down to us. It is a fair connection to say that if you hate our leader or country then you can deduce that you hate us.............we put him there.

Something like 40% of Americans voted right? So roughly 21% of Americans put Bush there, right? That leaves a whole 79% of Americans who either didnt vote for Bush or didnt vote at all.

Now perhaps this isn't about not liking Americans for putting Bush in office , but rather not liking the 21% of Americans who put him there. So if you think it bleeds down onto you, you are probably part of that 21%.

So rather than say that the world hates Americans because they put Bush in office, you should remember that only a small percentage really put him there. In which case you are part of a minority of Americans who perceives that the world doesnt like you, the Republicans. The world therefore wouldnt have a problem with the rest of the American people.

By the way, I don't hate any Americans. Just trying to point out that you are divisive when you take your republican side domestically, but are happy to have the rest of your countrymen, regardless of political ideology, share your burden of perceived global hatred.

[edit on 1-12-2004 by cargo]

I think part of the issue is how the critisism is directed. I can only think of one way to describe it right now. Please corrections are welcome.

We formed our country to come out from underneath a ruling monarchy. All men are created equal, taxation without representation and all of that. Sounded good in school anyway. When we finally succeded in the Revolutionary war, with the help of other countries mind you, our fore fathers set a framework in motion on basic human rights. ( please don't go into the slavery stuff, I wasnt there ). Out from under the real or percieved tyranny the country prospered quite well. People from all over the world came here for Freedom and a new life, hard as it may have been it was a system of beliefs that to this day, even with our citizens questioning it, is still held very close to our core values, traditions and way of life. Over many decades things get tinkered with and some like it and some don't, some worry and some don't. But the bottom line is we as a people of our country are empowered to change it. But it must be in a united way. It has been a stuggle since September 11. Most of us were not here for WWII and Pearl Harbor. Our country experienced the unthinkable and people deal with it in many different ways. Some want tougher security and laws that encroach on others rights as they interpret them. It is completely understandable given the core system started a couple hundred years ago and eversince held dear to our country that seemingly many things happening now may be eroding from within. Personaly I don't belive they are so worriesome yet....... don't know down the road. It does amaze me how quickly the world stood by us.............then blamed us. Another problem is the younger generation has seeming either quit learning about our rights or just don't care. No easy answers but alot of hard questions as to how we as a people of the United States are going to stay together and keep our liberties and freedoms we won so many years ago. The very things that have been entrenched in my generation * 37 yo * and those of my father and grandfather all the way back to the first of our family Christopher Bankus who arrived here in Virginia in 1622 aboard the ship Abigail as a servent and stayed in Jamestown with a host. Emotions run high when the perception of people trying to encroach on our freedoms either from here in the country or from other nations. Who knows even the Roman Empire fell as could we. But the strength of what was and has been worked for will work out. Its going to be a rough road with new learning curves but we were hardy enough to build a country out of nothing but hard work, we will pass this test too.

What the point is, we decided as a people to get out from underneath the King who is ruler because of 300 years of bloodline for a more equitable system and free market. We did not want a King, we opted for a vote. However crazy it seems to people it works pretty well and of course it could use the American tinkering. But do know what? To this day even though we fought a war to get away from the King. We as a country still hold the Royal Family of England or any country with royalty in very high regard. We didn't want the system but we don't walk around talking about how much we hate The Queen Mother because of it. Utmost respect for her and the family, millions of us watch Charles and Dianna get married and we all mourned with Dianna's passing.

Bottom line is a bit of compassion, dignity and respect is more in order than throwing out hatred so easily.

John

Originally posted by cargo

It is belittling when people say they hate the President mainly because it bleeds down to us. It is a fair connection to say that if you hate our leader or country then you can deduce that you hate us.............we put him there.

Something like 40% of Americans voted right? So roughly 21% of Americans put Bush there, right? That leaves a whole 79% of Americans who either didnt vote for Bush or didnt vote at all.

Now perhaps this isn't about not liking Americans for putting Bush in office , but rather not liking the 21% of Americans who put him there. So if you think it bleeds down onto you, you are probably part of that 21%.

So rather than say that the world hates Americans because they put Bush in office, you should remember that only a small percentage really put him there. In which case you are part of a minority of Americans who perceives that the world doesnt like you, the Republicans. The world therefore wouldnt have a problem with the rest of the American people.

By the way, I don't hate any Americans. Just trying to point out that you are divisive when you take your republican side domestically, but are happy to have the rest of your countrymen, regardless of political ideology, share your burden of perceived global hatred.

[edit on 1-12-2004 by cargo]

Pardon me, but if a citizen of this country did not exercise their right to vote. To damn bad. It there were that many people who abstained yet would have given enough votes for Sen. Kerry to win the Office of the President the they have no one to blame but themselves for being to damn lazy to stand up and do what they should have done.

I cannot help the fact that people with the right and who were eligible to vote did not do so. Those people should have nothing to say about who is the President because they didn't care enough at the time to cast their ballot. And this has nothing to do with foreign nations. I really am flabbergasted how people who did not even vote play armchair Opinon Editor at the local paper whining that it was a God Damn conspiricy that the Honoroble John Kerry did not win! If you did not vote YOU have no reason to whine and cry about who won office.

You are here on ATS to Deny Ignorance.........Why did you deny yourself a vote? Hmm Admit Ignorance.

Taking God out of the song "God Bless America" IGNORANT
Removing the Pledge of Allegance because it mentions God WAY IGNORANT
Oh and my all time favorite......the new grades in schools. My son no longer gets and A because it might hurt the feelings of the kid who got D. Uhhh uhhhhh, now its O for outstanding and N for Needs improvement.

Touchy feely whiney crap is gettin outta hand. Hurt their feelings ROFLMAO, wait till they get home with an N. You probably will see some improvement.

No I have never spanked my son or daugter. NOPE.. ITS TIME OUT.

Plus we all get go HOLIDAY SHOPPING........Christmas is to exclusive. Jeeze Next Santa?

Get some backbone back people MAKE A DIFFERENCE and stand up for what you belive in.

wheew, thanks Im outta gas.

You have NO idea who I voted for cargo. AND it is my right to keep it that way.






[edit on 12/1/2004 by just_a_pilot]