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Expect More Fireworks At Tonight's Prime-time Oversight Hearing on IRS Obstruction...

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posted on Jun, 24 2014 @ 02:14 PM
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a reply to: kruphix

The last couple of days of reading your responses have led me to this..... I really can't believe we have a pro-IRS person on this thread defending Lois Lerner and the rest of these criminals who hide behind the 5th amendment, even though they're public workers and should be FORCED to answer questions..



And for the record, I rarely pull out the triple face palm, but Kruphix, you sure are something special...
edit on 24-6-2014 by jhn7537 because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 24 2014 @ 02:16 PM
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originally posted by: Destinyone
a reply to: kruphix


The FACT the hearings are happening, and the FACT that Lerner did plead the 5th...is enough stink for me to draw the conclusion there is a pile-o-#e that made the stink....

Des


You don't have to like that she pleaded the 5th...but you can't logically draw any conclusions due to the absence of evidence.



posted on Jun, 24 2014 @ 02:17 PM
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originally posted by: kruphix
a reply to: beezzer


If she had nothing to hide, why not be honest?

You have been saying all throughout this thread that honest people have nothing to fear from the IRS.

But the IRS cannot be honest in return?

Your sense of responsibility is rather. . . . unusual.


I don't believe I ever said people have nothing to fear from the IRS...certain people do.

Like I said, I would have done the same thing as she did once it was apparent that this was a witch hunt and not an investigation.

If I were dealing with the IRS, and would recommend this to others as well, just because I have nothing to hide doesn't mean I'm going to provide them with more information than they need or requested.

There is a difference between having nothing to hide and supplying too much information to a party that is on a witch hunt.



But, as often said, if she's done nothing wrong, she has nothing to hide.

Your defense of her and the IRS has more holes in it than the plot of "24".



posted on Jun, 24 2014 @ 02:19 PM
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I feel like this needs to be mentioned regarding the vast amounts of ranting about the 5th Amendment: pleading the 5th is not an admission of guilt in a criminal or civil case. Indeed, this exact matter came before the USSC in 1965, and it was ruled unconstitutional for a prosecutor to ask a jury to infer guilt from a 5th plea. See here.



posted on Jun, 24 2014 @ 02:22 PM
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originally posted by: ShadeWolf
I feel like this needs to be mentioned regarding the vast amounts of ranting about the 5th Amendment: pleading the 5th is not an admission of guilt in a criminal or civil case. Indeed, this exact matter came before the USSC in 1965, and it was ruled unconstitutional for a prosecutor to ask a jury to infer guilt from a 5th plea. See here.


Of course it's not an admission of guilt, but a person who has nothing to hide (and is innocent of any wrong doing) should feel comfortable having a conversation about the topic at hand. When you plead the 5th, you are essentially telling the world you are guilty and that it's your job to prove it...



posted on Jun, 24 2014 @ 02:25 PM
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a reply to: jhn7537


The last couple of days of reading your responses have led me to this..... I really can't believe we have a pro-IRS person on this thread defending Lois Lerner and the rest of these criminals who hide behind the 5th amendment, even though they're public workers and should be FORCED to answer questions..


I'm not actually defending anyone. I am just stating the facts...and people who desperately want to believe in this conspiracy don't really like the facts.

The facts are that the investigation has uncovered no wrong doing at the upper levels of the IRS...all along it has been the one office that decided to use key words to prioritize their work.

I don't care if Lerner is found guilty of a crime or not...I really don't...however, there is zero evidence supporting that she committed any crime. If you think there is some evidence...not just the lack of evidence of her innocence...then please share it with us.

I have continually asked in thread after thread for people to show the evidence that the investigation has uncovered...no one can do it...but all of you sure are outraged...you just aren't sure what about.

And no, Lerner is a US citizen and she retains her rights no matter if she works for the government or not. She is entitled to her 5th amendment rights just as you are. I think it is appalling that you would be willing to strip someone of their rights just because you have an obsession with this conspiracy and you have bought into the Republican drama theater.

You can facepalm me all you want...I enjoy watching people hitting themselves.



posted on Jun, 24 2014 @ 02:27 PM
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a reply to: kruphix


You don't have to like that she pleaded the 5th...but you can't logically draw any conclusions due to the absence of evidence.


Here's one "absence of evidence" for you to ponder....




October 2010: In a meeting arranged at the direction of Jack Smith, chief of the Justice Department's Public Integrity Section, the DOJ asks IRS official Lois Lerner to help the Department build criminal cases against conservative nonprofit groups that have been conducting political activity.


Source.... ..



All done without any just cause. Violation of reasonable expectation of privacy applys (the Fourth Amendment)





edit on Jun-24-2014 by xuenchen because:




posted on Jun, 24 2014 @ 02:29 PM
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a reply to: beezzer


But, as often said, if she's done nothing wrong, she has nothing to hide.

Your defense of her and the IRS has more holes in it than the plot of "24".


I don't have to defend anything...nothing has been uncovered or proven of wrong doing.

I can't defend something that never happened...you can pretend that she did "something" or that the IRS did "something"...but I doubt you can even tell me what you think that "something" is. And I know for a fact that you have no evidence to support your claim of "something" happening. It is all just a fantasy for all of you...believing in something just because you want it to be true, but you have no facts to support it.

Maybe she did do something wrong...maybe she didn't...there is no other evidence to say that she did...so the only logical conclusion to draw is that we don't have any evidence of her doing anything wrong.

Anything beyond that conclusion is simply illogical.



posted on Jun, 24 2014 @ 02:30 PM
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originally posted by: ShadeWolf
I feel like this needs to be mentioned regarding the vast amounts of ranting about the 5th Amendment: pleading the 5th is not an admission of guilt in a criminal or civil case. Indeed, this exact matter came before the USSC in 1965, and it was ruled unconstitutional for a prosecutor to ask a jury to infer guilt from a 5th plea. See here.


They don't want to hear that.

Actually...I think most of her want to burn her at the stake...just because they THINK she might be hiding something.

It is the classical example of a witch hunt...that is all this investigation is.



posted on Jun, 24 2014 @ 02:33 PM
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originally posted by: xuenchen
a reply to: kruphix


You don't have to like that she pleaded the 5th...but you can't logically draw any conclusions due to the absence of evidence.


Here's one "absence of evidence" for you to ponder....




October 2010: In a meeting arranged at the direction of Jack Smith, chief of the Justice Department's Public Integrity Section, the DOJ asks IRS official Lois Lerner to help the Department build criminal cases against conservative nonprofit groups that have been conducting political activity.
Source[/ur l]


[url=http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=1935]Sources shoe guilt



All done without any just cause. Violation of reasonable expectation of privacy applys (the Fourth Amendment)



I'm starting to think that you don't really understand most of the stuff you are posting.

That is the DOJ's job...and that is the IRS's job to help the DOJ in an investigation.

If any 501c group is violating their tax exempt status by conducting political activity, it is the DOJ and IRS job to investigate them.

Do you think the Tea Party should get a free pass on this?



posted on Jun, 24 2014 @ 02:34 PM
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a reply to: kruphix

If we had evidence that Lois Lerner was guilty do you think we would be on the discussion boards of ATS?? If I had possession of evidence I would be taking these criminals down and not discussing it with a bunch of strangers...

You must really believe in coincidences or something, because in this case, there's a lot of strange things that happened to work out nicely for Lois Lerner and the IRS.. A lot of "convenient" turns of event after loads of delay from these higher ups you speak of. They never want to hand anything over to the investigators, they want to alter/redact every little thing they hand over, and they want to obstruct this investigation in all possible ways.

You may suggest innocence here, but I smell A LOT of BS coming from these people. Kinda sad that you see things only in black and white. Just because evidence isn't presented now, doesn't mean it's not there to be found soon enough.

Now, let me ask you this... Say I'm audited one day (which wouldn't be surprising seeing as I'm blasting the IRS non stop lately), Can I just tell the IRS that I lost my receipts or that a hard drive I stored in all on was damaged? If they can get away with that then why can't I? They are setting a bad precedence and should be held at a higher level for sure...



posted on Jun, 24 2014 @ 02:35 PM
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originally posted by: jhn7537

originally posted by: ShadeWolf
I feel like this needs to be mentioned regarding the vast amounts of ranting about the 5th Amendment: pleading the 5th is not an admission of guilt in a criminal or civil case. Indeed, this exact matter came before the USSC in 1965, and it was ruled unconstitutional for a prosecutor to ask a jury to infer guilt from a 5th plea. See here.


Of course it's not an admission of guilt, but a person who has nothing to hide (and is innocent of any wrong doing) should feel comfortable having a conversation about the topic at hand. When you plead the 5th, you are essentially telling the world you are guilty and that it's your job to prove it...


Contradict yourself much? Let's examine what you just said.

"Of course it's not an admission of guilt.....When you plead the 5th, you are essentially telling the world you are guilty".

Let me translate that for you: "Of course it's not an admission of guilt....When you plead the 5th, it's and admission of guilt".


You are talking in circles.



posted on Jun, 24 2014 @ 02:38 PM
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a reply to: kruphix

Legally, speaking you can't be prosecuted for pleading the 5th, which means you "technically" are not guilty for pleading it. But any person in their right mind knows that the person who pleads the 5th is pleading the 5th because they know more than they want the public to believe and want to leave it up to others to proving that they're guilty.

When you plead the 5th you are basically stating "I can only hurt myself from having a conversation here", which is why you keep your mouth shut.

Any innocent person would never plead the 5th, there would be no purpose to, other than being a jag bag...



posted on Jun, 24 2014 @ 02:40 PM
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originally posted by: kruphix
I don't know who this IRS guy is...but he is pretty damn awesome.

He has sat there and responded to all these insane questions with calmness and clarity. They have tried to trip him up multiple times and he has had to correct THEM on their facts.

It's more political theater...I'm sure the Republican supporters are gushing with pleasure...they seem to like the theatrics and show rather than substance.


Here's background on John Koskinen.

He was appointed by Obama for the sole purpose of "fail recovery".

He has no IRS experience at all.

He is a professional BeeEss artist.



Prior to entering government service, Koskinen worked for 21 years for The Palmieri Company as Vice President, President, CEO and Chairman, working on the turnaround of large, failed enterprises such as the Penn Central Transportation Company, Levitt and Sons, the Teamsters Pension Fund, Mutual Benefit and Equity Programs Investment Corporation. Earlier in his career, Koskinen served as Administrative Assistant to Senator Abraham Ribicoff (D-Conn.) from 1969–73, was Legislative Assistant to Mayor John Lindsay of New York City from 1968–69, served as Assistant to the Deputy Executive Director of the National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorders (the "Kerner Commission") from 1967–68, practiced law with the firm of Gibson, Dunn and Crutcher from 1966–67 and clerked for Judge David Bazelon, Chief Judge of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia, from 1965-66

John Koskinen




posted on Jun, 24 2014 @ 02:40 PM
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These idiots can make all the claims they want and hide behind
any loopholes they can. Their brain dead supporters can defend them all they want..

We know the truth, it is akin to OJ simpson..
WE ALL KNOW HE DID IT, guilty as sin..

EVERYONE KNOWS lois and crew are guilty, and they wiped the emails
to hide their crime.

Proof these people are scum... WE KNOW IT! Case closed. these slimy worms will get what they deserve.



posted on Jun, 24 2014 @ 02:45 PM
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a reply to: jhn7537


If we had evidence that Lois Lerner was guilty do you think we would be on the discussion boards of ATS?? If I had possession of evidence I would be taking these criminals down and not discussing it with a bunch of strangers...


Exactly, there has been no evidence uncovered or made public that shows Lois Lerner did anything illegal.

And yet...I am the crazy one for "defending" her (and by defending, I mean not condemning her). But the rest of you who are condemning her and assuming she is guilty with zero evidence to back it up...I guess you guys are the ones who are "awake"...right?

You have just admitted that there is zero evidence...but I bet you still think she is guilty...right? How does that sit well with you?


You must really believe in coincidences or something, because in this case, there's a lot of strange things that happened to work out nicely for Lois Lerner and the IRS.. A lot of "convenient" turns of event after loads of delay from these higher ups you speak of. They never want to hand anything over to the investigators, they want to alter/redact every little thing they hand over, and they want to obstruct this investigation in all possible ways.


Yes, I believe in coincidences...don't you?

And all of these are only "convenient" if you are automatically pre-judging guilt in her case. They have thousands of documents and close to 70,000 emails from and to her recovered from other mailboxes...they have found nothing in them to suggest guilt of anything.

When nothing is showing guilt, why do you think the logical position to take is that she is guilty of something?

And please tell me...what exactly is she guilty of? Without evidence to show she is guilty of something...how exactly can you determine what she is guilty of?


You may suggest innocence here, but I smell A LOT of BS coming from these people. Kinda sad that you see things only in black and white. Just because evidence isn't presented now, doesn't mean it's not there to be found soon enough.


And if evidence is found in the future that implicates her in some crime, great...she is then charged with a crime. I have zero problems with that...I really don't.

The problem I have is that you and others want to assumer her guilt before there is any evidence. Do you not have a problem with that?


Now, let me ask you this... Say I'm audited one day (which wouldn't be surprising seeing as I'm blasting the IRS non stop lately), Can I just tell the IRS that I lost my receipts or that a hard drive I stored in all on was damaged? If they can get away with that then why can't I? They are setting a bad precedence and should be held at a higher level for sure


I don't know, I'm not an IRS auditor...I couldn't tell you what is acceptable or not.

However, there is one big difference between your example and this investigation. When you file your taxes and sign them, you are making a declaration of truth and have said that you have the documentation to back it up.

Lois Lerner has never made a declaration saying that she has all of her emails that proves her innocence of a certain act. The fact is that there is no specific act they are trying to prove she is innocent or guilty of...they are just fishing for information to try to find something she may be guilty of and so far they haven't found anything.


I'm going to re-state a question I asked earlier in this reply so it doesn't get lost.

what exactly is she guilty of? Without evidence to show she is guilty of something...how exactly can you determine what she is guilty of?



posted on Jun, 24 2014 @ 02:46 PM
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a reply to: kruphix



Do you think the Tea Party should get a free pass on this?



Free Pass only applies when proven guilty and nothing gets done.

No "Tea Party" organization has ever been found guilty of anything.

All the IRS targeting was done without cause. It was all premature.



Winter 2010-2011: Judith Kindell, senior advisor to IRS Exempt Organizations Division Director Lois Lerner, tells IRS attorney Carter Hull, who oversaw the review of some tax-exemption applications by conservative Tea Party groups, that the IRS Chief Counsel’s office -- headed by Obama appointee William Wilkins -- will henceforth need to review all applications from conservative groups whose names contain the aforementioned trigger words. According to Hull, this is the first time in his 48-year career at the IRS that he has been instructed to forward any tax-exemption applications to another office. (Source and Source)



All done on "Name" association only. No just cause or even reasonable suspicion.



posted on Jun, 24 2014 @ 02:53 PM
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originally posted by: starfoxxx
These idiots can make all the claims they want and hide behind
any loopholes they can. Their brain dead supporters can defend them all they want..

We know the truth, it is akin to OJ simpson..
WE ALL KNOW HE DID IT, guilty as sin..

EVERYONE KNOWS lois and crew are guilty, and they wiped the emails
to hide their crime.

Proof these people are scum... WE KNOW IT! Case closed. these slimy worms will get what they deserve.


Koskenins campagin donations to the left is the proof in the pudding.



posted on Jun, 24 2014 @ 02:55 PM
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originally posted by: kruphix
It is the classical example of a witch hunt...that is all this investigation is.


Can you explain to me how you have concluded there is no evidence at all of a coverup or anything suspicious while admitting you haven't really followed it? And why 26 Democratic Representatives in the House who have obviously looked at the issue in more detail than yourself voted for a Special Prosecutor to help the Republican "witch hunt"?



posted on Jun, 24 2014 @ 02:56 PM
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a reply to: kruphix





It is the classical example of a witch hunt...that is all this investigation is.



deja vu

Where have I heard that before

Oh yea 1973 1974

and again 1987 88 89

and 1997 98 99

fast and furious
benghazi
Irs

Its all witch hunts when your party stepped in it and is tracking it across the carpet.



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