Ground Zero Cross: Court presses atheist group to explain why artifact is 'offensive'

a reply to: SaturnFX

I guess ultimately it's about history. Museums are supposed to accurately preserve history and the historical context of that cross is what it is.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

Christian atheist, black white, left right, it is divide an rule in action, and look...

They are still arguing, job done ABC agency

a reply to: windword

Because they are hate mongers with nothing better to do than whine like children about inanimate objects?

a reply to: Hushabye

it's actually NOT a symbol of death. it's a symbol of eternal life that was used as a means of death.

You know I usually don't comment on religious stuff cause opinions are like assholes and everyone has one, and in the case of religious matters they typically all stink, BUT; in this case I will make an excemption. In regards to this cross, why did it become important enough to be placed at the sept 11 memorial? the reason why is simple, this was a catastrophic terrorist attack that killed 3000 people on that horrible day.

I personally can remember watching tv as the second plane came in and crashed. I remembered watching as I saw people jump to there deaths and thought of how desperate they must have been. I watched as they talked about the firemen inside had set up operations in the base of the tower. Then I watched as the towers collapsed the debree and dust cloud exploded onto the nearby streets engulfing everything. I watched as millions of #ing muslims all across the world chanted and celebrated, while the americans that sat and watched, could do nothing but stare in agony and pain at a damn tv to find out what was happening. I watched me and my fellow americans going to hospitals to give blood in hopes of reaching survivors, and I watched the few remaining NY police and fireman ache in pain as they stood in shock from the overall devestation. I watched on my tv as those firemen made there way into the rubble and started digging, hoping with the entire nation that they could pull there brothers and sisters out. I watched as volunteers from across the country came to NY to help dig, hoping and yes PRAYING that they would find somebody, anybody in all that destruction. I watched as the people that dug sacrificed there health developing sickness but sacrificing to find 1, just one person in the rubble, none were found.

those people that went there in utter chaos, into destruction, into hell, to dig needed a place to gather themselves, to cry, to morn, and yes to pray. That place was that cross, and that cross was, is, and will be a symbol of hope that those men and women that went there used to do the impossible, which was to work 24 hrs a day, scrapping with bare hands at that rubble to save people. None were saved, but for 3 weeks the nation hoped, the volunteers bleed, and we as americans watched. As an American, I donated my money to the memorial as did millions of americans. We did so cause everything was exposed on the tv, we saw the entire situation and we were moved. Moved to the point where in all honestly, I think Bush could have Nuked the whole middle east, and americans would have cheered. People keep saying this wasn't a religious thing, BUT the SEPT 11 tragedy was religious, as we saw first hand what muslim extremism can do, and we saw what Christian hope and faith can do too.

That cross represents that hope and faith, and it represents our fight to save our brothers and sisters, and finally it represents the calmness that each of us will eventually experience when we know we tried everything, there is nothing left to do but cry, and then through that desperation we get up, dust our knees off and move on. It represents our strength.

Peace,

Camain

Here's the thing - these two beams were random rubble until some people who happened to be Christian noticed a resemblance to their symbol of the cross, and because these people gave these two random beams that significance, they became a cross in the eyes of everyone else, including the atheists who know apparently find random rubble to be offensive.

What's more offensive to the atheists? That the two beams in question happen to resemble a cross or that other people of faith saw that resemblance and used it to make those two random beams a symbol of comfort and faith for themselves and others who believe as they did? Are atheists that upset that a random beam didn't get bent into their fancy little A sign?

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If you were to deny there being an Inverted Pentagram placed at the 911 memorial if so such a thing was to be found there, then there is no way you should expect a piece of wreckage resembling a cross to be placed at the 911 memorial w/o some backlash. I use the pentagram as an example because of the whole cross debate and in keeping with the equal/opposite reaction scenario. However, if the grounds the memorial is set upon are considered to be "city/public" property then the mentioning of how the funds were procured and are being used is a non issue at this point. Now if the grounds are "private", then that is when the aforementioned funds would come into play. I personally, am very fond of Anarchist Ideals so I couldn't care less about what is being placed there but save for the fact of "Christians" getting their undergarments in a bunch much like the "Atheists" and in doing so, they attempt to get laws and regulations passed which in turn does encroach upon my freedom to be free of their stupidity.

a reply to: SaturnFX

I agree that religious groups should have to cede their tax exempt status.

But I also have to understand that religion is intertwined with all human cultures. The cross beams were important to people on site during what is supposed to be a big event in our history. With that in mind, it would seem that it has some significance in a historical context.

a reply to: camain

People keep saying this wasn't a religious thing, BUT the SEPT 11 tragedy was religious, as we saw first hand what muslim extremism can do, and we saw what Christian hope and faith can do too.

And, there it is again!

Christianity wasn't attacked that day, and, Christianity didn't emerge victorious on that day!

More that just Christians died on the 911. The first responders were also Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Buddhists etc. and the good will and hope that came from 911 came from all people of all creeds and nations.

Sorry, I don't buy the so called atheists take on a Christian cross or any other religious symbolism, for that matter. Anything religious does NOT bother a true atheist. the symbols certainly don't bother me or any of my enlightened friends, either. I'm an atheist and I go to church sometimes (just hope my snoring doesn't bother anyone : ) ). The true reason these people want Christian symbols removed is that they are satanists. They are bothered by religious symbolism because they (the satanists) are RELIGIOUS. Supposedly the symbols do something to them and they don't like it. They hide behind the atheist mantra and frankly, I'm getting tired of it.

True atheists need to rise up and kick these so-called satan/atheists butts. Maybe we could sue them for defamation of character.

originally posted by: ketsuko
Here's the thing - these two beams were random rubble until some people who happened to be Christian noticed a resemblance to their symbol of the cross, and because these people gave these two random beams that significance, they became a cross in the eyes of everyone else, including the atheists who know apparently find random rubble to be offensive.

What's more offensive to the atheists? That the two beams in question happen to resemble a cross or that other people of faith saw that resemblance and used it to make those two random beams a symbol of comfort and faith for themselves and others who believe as they did? Are atheists that upset that a random beam didn't get bent into their fancy little A sign?

No symbol of anything religious is offensive to a true atheist. Sorry to burst your bubble.

a reply to: NightFlight

Actually, it's about equality and separation of church and state.

Atheists are not against the symbolism of the cross, only where it's being placed.

People of many faiths, including known atheists died in the 911 tragedy. Where is their giant symbol front and center?

All or none.

A giant symbol of one religion is inappropriate to represent 911.

a reply to: Annee

Hi Annee, luv ya!

The original towers were not a government building, so I don't believe the symbols placed there after the tragedy would come under church/state mandates, or offend anyone; but really help true religious believers. I'm all for that, that anything that helps people get through trying times is good. I, for one, cannot and will not try to ever stop that and I am against anyone who does.

a reply to: windword

your absolutely right Christianity wasn't attacked, people were attacked of all faith. That said though, when you are exposed to OVERWHELMING devastation around you. Those down in the pit, digging went to that cross to seek peace, to seek solace. I wasn't referring to Christianity being attacked, I was referring to the fact that the volunteers that went down to try and save people sought solace after there 16, 18, 20 hr shift digging till there hands raw and bleeding, just for a chance to save someone. On that day, everyone across America lost someone they loved. those people that dug used that cross for peace. IT IS a part of Sept 11th, and no bull# political correct horse# should take it away. That cross represents peace, and coming to terms with tragedy. It should be kept there, if the muslims wanted the crescent there, maybe they should have dug, or better yet tried to prevent it. Hell even Sadam Hussein gave blood on that day, and encouraged Iraqi's to not celebrate. Do you ask why? its because on that day, it was Americas darkest day. On that day 300 million americans wanted revenge. on that day if Bush would have obliterated the Middle East, not one American would have stopped it. that thirt for revenge persisted for weeks, and instead of complete obliteration, we americans looked to God, Prayed for peace, and prayed for those men and women down in that pit digging day and night. that cross changed us from a desire of blood to a desire to save, to hope, to pray for peace. did we still go to war, yes, but I promise you this, that cross saved hundreds of millions of lives cause put simply, I remember how I felt, and I saw what others felt. I worked in a call center at the time with 500 other people. Every break, every lunch, every spare moment, people stared at the news.

Havent been here but a day but apparently long enough to see many here lack basic reading comprehension skills.

I wonder how come athiest's never get 'offended'

About that 'In God We Trust' on our money.

But throw a hissy fit about everything else.

Geez.

Everyone in this thread is forgetting that the whole incident was a manufactured false flag attack to start a war in the middle east and exhaust American resources/tank the dollar while removing many constitutional protections and increasing oil and military contracts and securing globalist assets If they want a symbol they should just put up a statue of Bush and Brzezinski raping Uncle Sam while he wipes his tears with the constitution.

I am with beezer this is just setting precedent to be used later down the road and create further false division in our society while maintaing the mythological narrative to keep people ignorant.

I think an important question to ask is:

If the rubble in question that formed a cross instead formed an upside down cross and Satanist claimed it was a sign from the dark lord...would Christians be upset about them wanting it to be part of the memorial?


I honestly don't care, I see both sides of it really...but really just don't care enough to put much thought into it.

a reply to: neo96

I wonder how come athiest's never get 'offended'

About that 'In God We Trust' on our money.

Atheists Lose Battle To Have 'In God We Trust' Removed From U.S. Currency

But, you'd think it would be a Christian battle, over the blasphemous misuse of the name of "GOD". God and money don't mix in Christiandom.

"No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.