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Ground Zero Cross: Court presses atheist group to explain why artifact is 'offensive'

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posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 01:02 AM
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i think most atheists in america are fine with it, it's just like with anything else, the loudest voice gets the most attention.




posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 01:06 AM
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originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Lostinthedarkness

So, lets just put the 10 Commandments in court houses and schools, teach creationism in schools along side evolution, and let out tax dollars pay for Christian symbolism at all national monuments and memorials too.


If only Christians were as tolerant of us as they ask us non-Christians to be of them.




but we are (as a general rule).
you just don't love us anymore, but i mean, we knew something like that was coming anyway. i prefer not to be enemies with people i've been around all my life and even ones i haven't. how do we solve this? by all becoming atheists. only solution. that ain't gonna happen, so now what?

yeah....

but i like being alive.



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 01:06 AM
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originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: SaturnFX

I get your point, I really do. I'm not Christian nor any religion... I just don't see the need to fight over this one. I'd like to see other religious symbols too. Personally I see it as a crossbar. But it's a crossbar that means something to a lot of people.

The reason to fight against it is the same reason beezer wants to fight for it
precedent.
If you can decide to put a giant tax funded cross in the center of new York due to it being emotionally pleasing to some people, then that opens the door to religious symbols everywhere under the same guise.
and there isn't enough space to put a endlessly growing list of religious symbols...what if a pagan died in the towers whom held the ancient greek pantheon to heart in his/her ceremonial practices...should then the entire greek pantheon symbols be there somewhere also? what about the Satanist...the Taoist, etc.



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 01:08 AM
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a reply to: Kali74

it's an ankh. i'm telling ya, it's an ankh. an ankh that was turned into a means of the exact opposite (capital punishment device). isn't it ironic?



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 01:11 AM
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originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: windword

You said

All for killing? Like the "hawks" that led us into Iraq after 911, because some people were looking for blood and revenge?


The intersecting I-beams represent the loss and comfort people got from the recovery operation.

YOU brought up killing people.


No. You did.

www.abovetopsecret.com...



We should deny people the peace of mind that they may get so they won't offend others that are all for killing.


You are implying that those who are offended by this Christian symbol are "all for killing".

Then, you misrepresented my reply:



All for killing? Like the "hawks" that led us into Iraq after 911, because some people were looking for blood and revenge?


.....by claiming that I accused the victims of 911 of being "all for killing".



I didn't realize that all the people that died on 9/11 were for killing others.

Thanks for that enlightening comment!


You can't have an honest conversation, so I'm done with you.



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 01:15 AM
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a reply to: windword

I will spend my remaining days weeping.

But I stand by what I said.

I stand for religious freedom. Not Christian freedom, but all religious freedoms.



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 01:16 AM
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a reply to: undo




we knew something like that was coming anyway.


You see? There it is. A Christian sentiment that God ordained and sanctioned the 911 event and the "cross of death" is there to remind America of their sins and the punishment God brought to the country on that day.

That's why it's offensive.



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 01:18 AM
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originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: SaturnFX

I get your point, I really do. I'm not Christian nor any religion... I just don't see the need to fight over this one. I'd like to see other religious symbols too. Personally I see it as a crossbar. But it's a crossbar that means something to a lot of people.

The reason to fight against it is the same reason beezer wants to fight for it
precedent.
If you can decide to put a giant tax funded cross in the center of new York due to it being emotionally pleasing to some people, then that opens the door to religious symbols everywhere under the same guise.
and there isn't enough space to put a endlessly growing list of religious symbols...what if a pagan died in the towers whom held the ancient greek pantheon to heart in his/her ceremonial practices...should then the entire greek pantheon symbols be there somewhere also? what about the Satanist...the Taoist, etc.


Bullshirt.

I stand against the whole issue for the precedent that it would be deemed "offensive".

I even gave examples.

Now who is being disingenuous?



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 01:21 AM
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originally posted by: windword
a reply to: undo




we knew something like that was coming anyway.


You see? There it is. A Christian sentiment that God ordained and sanctioned the 911 event and the "cross of death" is there to remind America of their sins and the punishment God brought to the country on that day.

That's why it's offensive.



no, it wasn't a reference to 9/11. it was a reference to some atheists losing their ability to let us share the public space without first, stripping us and our surroundings of anything self-identifying. it's okay, i know why you are freaking out. i've studied dominionist theology and that is scary stuff. you should be concerned, but not to the degree that you are, since pretty much everything in the public square is atheistic in its presentation except the graveyard. apparently, that's next.



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 01:29 AM
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a reply to: undo

Maybe we could get an executive order first declaring all US cemeteries federal parks, and then have all christian symbols declared offensive, then have them all removed?

Could be accomplished with a pen and a phone.




posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 01:31 AM
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originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: SaturnFX

I get your point, I really do. I'm not Christian nor any religion... I just don't see the need to fight over this one. I'd like to see other religious symbols too. Personally I see it as a crossbar. But it's a crossbar that means something to a lot of people.

The reason to fight against it is the same reason beezer wants to fight for it
precedent.
If you can decide to put a giant tax funded cross in the center of new York due to it being emotionally pleasing to some people, then that opens the door to religious symbols everywhere under the same guise.
and there isn't enough space to put a endlessly growing list of religious symbols...what if a pagan died in the towers whom held the ancient greek pantheon to heart in his/her ceremonial practices...should then the entire greek pantheon symbols be there somewhere also? what about the Satanist...the Taoist, etc.


Bullshirt.

I stand against the whole issue for the precedent that it would be deemed "offensive".

I even gave examples.

Now who is being disingenuous?

You are 100% emotion on this issue without any qualification as to the actual issues going on here
tax payer supported religious symbols.
It is offensive, not the cross itself, regardless of the wording, but of any religious symbol being used via tax dollars at work..especially something as important to the national (and international) psyche as ground zero.



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 01:34 AM
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originally posted by: ausername
a reply to: undo

Maybe we could get an executive order first declaring all US cemeteries federal parks, and then have all christian symbols declared offensive, then have them all removed?

Could be accomplished with a pen and a phone.




Maybe we can change all crosses to Islamic symbols instead?
Government getting into the business of religion is awesome like that...
Aren't you lot concerned about creeping sharia? Why let the Islamic threat effect your religious rights?
Why not just say...no, government, stay out of religion from now until forever and let individuals decide..be it on their personal tombstone, home, or church..and no big state funded symbols of anything religious.

After all, Jedi may be the new big thing...do you really want a holy picture of jar jar binks presiding over your town center?



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 01:36 AM
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a reply to: SaturnFX

that's gonna happen eventually anyway. i still care about you whether you care about me or not. i don't want the country to turn into a religiously fanatical society. problem is, the country is nowhere near a religiously fanatical society but you're acting like it is. have you watched tv? read public school textbooks? i mean, the graveyard?



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 01:47 AM
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originally posted by: SaturnFX

originally posted by: ausername
a reply to: undo

Maybe we could get an executive order first declaring all US cemeteries federal parks, and then have all christian symbols declared offensive, then have them all removed?

Could be accomplished with a pen and a phone.




Maybe we can change all crosses to Islamic symbols instead?
Government getting into the business of religion is awesome like that...
Aren't you lot concerned about creeping sharia? Why let the Islamic threat effect your religious rights?
Why not just say...no, government, stay out of religion from now until forever and let individuals decide..be it on their personal tombstone, home, or church..and no big state funded symbols of anything religious.

After all, Jedi may be the new big thing...do you really want a holy picture of jar jar binks presiding over your town center?


Sure why not, all hail' Jar Jar!

Under freedom of religion, and freedom of expression, even if bothered, disturbed, or offended. I am obliged to respect it, unless it conflicts with state local or federal laws.

As for government in religion or religion in government, it happens when and only when it is advantageous for politicians, groups, activists, lobbyists and major contributors.

Some of them would openly worship Satan if they knew it would get them support, votes and win an election.

Religion is in our government, there are faithful in government, and often even the most sinister will find a back door to get inside one way or another... Including the religiously zealot Atheists.




posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 01:47 AM
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originally posted by: undo
a reply to: SaturnFX

that's gonna happen eventually anyway. i still care about you whether you care about me or not. i don't want the country to turn into a religiously fanatical society. problem is, the country is nowhere near a religiously fanatical society but you're acting like it is. have you watched tv? read public school textbooks? i mean, the graveyard?


-shrugs-
was just making some absurd example, but it is sort of relevant in the context of government sponsoring symbols of religion overall.

I am not worred in the end about a cross here and there..I find it highly amusing that any politician could pretend to be Christian on one hand, but work for the machine that is this nation...personally, sure..but this nation, as a nation, is about as Christian as 4chan is a intellectual discussion website for enlightened souls, so what the bigger argument is then, as you let government wield the tool of religion over the softer minds, to include converting tax dollars and public spaces to specific religions, you will have one fantastic example of overreach...and sure, should down the line islam become more popular, then precident will already be set for government to meddle in religion...maybe not change tombstone symbols, (I was only responding to the person suggesting sarcastically they remove crosses in graveyards btw) but they could have taxpayer funded loudspeakers in town squares issuing the call to prayer, more religious institutions and laws observed and trumping common laws, etc...
the slippery slope must be observed here, as it interferes with your liberties directly..government has no business in religion, any religion, nor any support for any specific religion or religious icons. Let the private sector sort that out.



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 01:50 AM
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originally posted by: SaturnFX
I think a religious symbol at the site of a religious atrocity is a bit over the top...I would be for a sort of coexist type plaque with all the religious symbols (and the atom for atheists) though...
But the cross is a Christian symbol, and the attack was by religious fanatics...If religion didn't exist (say it went out of fashion in 2000 globally and everyone just decided to be decent people and humanitarians), we would still have the towers...end of the day, no suicide flyers = no terrorist attacks.


I'm really torn about this one. I really agree with what SaturnFX says here, but I also see how it can be meaningful, as it was naturally formed out of and found in the wreckage and has brought a lot of comfort to many people. That and I really don't mind seeing and respecting the good parts of religion and people, and there was a lot of that too on that particular day. Overall, I think I'd let this one slide and leave it.



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 01:55 AM
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a reply to: Kaploink

This was a piece of wrechage that proved to be conforting for some responders as it was in the shape of a cross. How can anyone find this offensive?

It wasnt created this way, it just fell this way.

I see crosses in nature all the time, I never get offended. Its just pathetic. It may not mean much to everyone but come on, it did offer comfort to some and should be allowed in the museum for the victims families / responders that did find comfort from it.

Why be so hateful to there people?

If the wreckage just so happened to form another symbol and other people fot comfort from it....same thing? Why be so cruel as to not have it in a museum?

Kids act better than this. Just hateful. This cross was not created, it just happened to be, and helped some people try get through an awful situation. Why on earth would any loving person object to this?


It wasn't just aitheists that died that day you know. Yet they want to push out every one else yet again. No respect just hate.
edit on 22-6-2014 by greavsie1971 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 02:01 AM
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a reply to: ~Lucidity

yeah that's a toughie.

egads i wish there weren't so many competing ideas fighting over the remaining acreage in me brain pan. hehe



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 02:02 AM
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a reply to: SaturnFX

see my post to lucidity above



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 02:03 AM
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originally posted by: undo
i think most atheists in america are fine with it, it's just like with anything else, the loudest voice gets the most attention.


I think you're right on this one. The squeaky wheel gets the grease so to speak. I truly don't think most atheists care. I also don't think most atheists cringe or get offended by the sight of a cross. I think there are a few that speak so loudly they drown out the others and in doing so, they really hurt the reputation of other atheists. Kind of like Phelps (almost can't even type it without heaving) gave a lot of folks a bad taste in their mouths for Christianity.

People who behave in such ways do not help their cause regardless of what cause it is.

I don't think any Christian puts a cross ANYWHERE hoping that it will offend anyone or make anyone uncomfortable. But some would have others believe they do.

I really don't know what the answer is and I keep wanting to pull a Rodney King and ask why we can't all just get along. In the end I just think there are a ton of bigger issues that we need to focus on more than this and I think those manufacturing these types of things know that and use it to their advantage 100%.

We all just keep taking the bait even when most of us know that it's bait. It's insane really.




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