A question to all: Am I a "Christian"?

a reply to: ketsuko

Are you perfect? You never, ever do anything wrong? You never, ever do things that hurt yourself or others?

Really?

Of course I'm not perfect. I never claimed to be, and I know I am not.

I am also not a piece of crap loser.

My "pride" talking, eh? Your response is the harshest yet.

a reply to: ketsuko

For example, my husband and I were cranky and snapped at each other this morning without reason. It caused hurt feelings. There you go. Sin.

I'd say you're still cranky.

And now you've snapped at me, simply because you can.
Talk to your god about that later, too, eh?

See what I did there?

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
I'm finding all of your answers to be very interesting.

I want to point out a few things, and wonder if they will change any of your thoughts/comments:

I did not say whether or not I WANT to be a Christian.

As I clarified earlier, I did not say I DON'T BELIEVE in God. Actually, I see "God" in everything.

I didn't ask "what should I do?"

And also: I am actually pretty comfortable with my position, while at the same time I didn't state how I 'categorize' myself, either.

Honestly, it's been quite interesting to read all of your responses and thoughts. I don't feel helplessly lost, and I didn't ask for "instructions" on how to be 'saved.' Your responses have come across with a variety of themes:

How-to guidance; pity/disappointment; simple legalism; semantics; cultural views; comparative approaches, and others.
One more question for you all:

Did this exercise cause you to think about your own views, and how they are assessed - by yourself AND contrasted as to how they might be assessed by others?

absolutely not. I sought only to clarify for you the truth. It mattered not so much what you thought or what i could gain. I simply tried to address your specifics and as it went on, to quantify and clarify it because you showed some real concern. You never gave any declarations outside feelings that drive you. I try not to let my feelings and emotions get in the way of discerning truth. I only tried to provide light to a darkened room.

a reply to: ketsuko

Christ died for our sins. Belief in that is the way to salvation, and it's not enough to just say you believe in it.

Then what IS enough, if it's not enough to just say you believe in it? Because I don't believe in it. AND I CAN'T FORCE MYSELF TO BELIEVE IN IT.
I don't believe in original sin.

I think we are made the way we are for reasons that are known by the creator alone - and I'm fine just living with how I was made. If I was such a crumbum, then it's not my fault - I was made this way.

I already have said repeatedly that I'm perfectly willing to admit my mistakes, and do so...and make amends where I can.
But no -
I don't believe in the "Christ died for our sins" theory - nor do I "say" I believe it.

a reply to: manna2

absolutely not.

"Absolutely not" what?
It didn't prompt you to think about your own faith? Okay then. Just wondered.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

My mother was an overboard Christian and she believed that frogs were evil. She was not alone. Now, if frogs were evil, how is it that god used frogs to invest a town as a sign to help free the Jews for Moses. It seems like these creatures were under the control of God. This is just one example of how people misinterpret things.

Another example is that people hate picker bushes. God says "Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field" So people hate these bushes. The thing is that the chemistry of the thistle actually can be a medicine and extend the life of our organs if consumed reasonably, this gives us a longer and less sickly life. Now how come people hate these things. The Church has known for a long time that these can cancel out many types of poisoning, but did not tell everyone. It can help the body detox and work properly. But we learned to curse these things and rip them from the ground. It does not have to be holy thistle either, other types also work but are less potent....and free.

Now these are just a couple of examples of how people are blinded to see the truth. Yet the church does not really address these rumors and lets people fear a frog, thinking that they are a little off. Now, frogs can carry disease, but that is not actually a devil thing, if you don't harass them and wash your hands after touching them, you do not have much to worry about. Some of the sayings we have made in the past were created to keep kids from harassing wildlife, but it got turned around and some people fear frogs.

Sorry about getting off topic. I just wanted to show you that even the most religious people can be misled and believe a lie. It is their pride that causes this, their tendency to judge others. That is the job of god. I won't look the other way or turn the other cheek if someone threatens my family. I don't know what nut wrote that in the bible. It was meant to keep people from making enemies of their neighbors because of minor disputes. It was meant to deter people killing someone in their community for minor disputes. This helped to form the justice system we have in America, bring your disputes in front of a judge, hoping he is not bribed by the other person or believes in unfair practices. Even the corruption of the judicial system is mentioned in the bible somewhere. Some things never change, but our perception of them does.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Serdgiam

I explained that in the OP. Simply curious - to get some insight into how the group here sees me - how they define "Christianity", and how they see themselves.

Then why ask them specifically to state how they see you? Beyond that, the question I asked had deeper implications, and as I read your OP it might have been a safe assumption that the answers I was seeking were not answered in the opening post. Otherwise, I would not have asked.

Some I suspected would say "yes" because I was baptized into the church and trained up in it...some I suspected would say "no" because I don't (and never did) believe the Nicene Creed or the miracles or Jesus being the only one.
It was sort of a 'poll' to get a feel for how members who hang out here think - not whether I can "join the club."

So, you do not consider yourself a Christian (or "joining the club" wouldnt even come up) and you have no desire to become Christian (as you have made clear to those whom suggested as much)...

Perhaps it would have been more productive to not automatically limit the scope of the replies and simply asked how others viewed your beliefs. Otherwise, it just appears as an attempt to bait Christians into judging others and then point out their error in various fashions rather than a true attempt to explore others beliefs.

Maybe that puts a bit more context on my question?

Basically I am asking why you presented the question in such a way that will define and limit the answers you receive. Another approach would be to simply ask about how forumites go about defining their own Christianity (if you wanted to focus on that religion specifically), rather than how we define your beliefs. So, why do you ask the question in the first place?

a reply to: rickymouse

I had an herb garden for a while - milk thistle is VERY curative. So are many other herbs/plants.
But yes, you're right -
that knowledge has been suppressed by TPTB. Sadly for them, it is still "out there" and available. I have (let me count....EIGHT) books on my shelf right now about Natural Healing, Folk Medicine, Medicinal Plants, Edible Wild Plants, etc. And they're not going ANYWHERE unless it's with me and my family as we escape into the wild.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Pride is the hardest sin to see. We all want to believe the best of ourselves all the time when it is and isn't warranted.

The idea that you think you have to always think you're crap is just plain wrong. There is a big different between acknowledging that you're not perfect and will always make mistakes and thinking you're crap. It requires humility to accept the first, but pride leads you to believe that the position of the first is really the second. And because you're thinking from the position of the second, you refuse to accept the gift of salvation. Is it really so hard to be humble and admit you make mistakes? That's all you have to do.

And I'm not being cranky. I'm simply telling you the truth as I learned it from a very wise man - C.S. Lewis. Perhaps you should take the issue up with him.

a reply to: Serdgiam

Basically I am asking why you presented the question in such a way that will define and limit the answers you receive. It would have likely been more productive to simply ask about how forumites go about defining their own Christianity (if you wanted to focus on that religion specifically), rather than how we define your beliefs. So, why do you ask the question in the first place?

It just came to me yesterday while I was surfing the forums.

I wasn't intending to judge anyone - and I don't see anything wrong with posing a question in a manner that gets responses.
I only defined my upbringing and current beliefs. I read this forum every day, and try to 'discern' how forumites (?) go about defining their own Christianity.

I wanted to know how they would 'receive me' if I approached them. That's all. It's not so nefarious as you're making it out to be. Last year I actually contemplated a plan to attend EVERY church within a square mile of my home - unannounced, to see how I would be received by the parishioners/congregations. I guess this was a way to do that without leaving home.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I have all my research in my head where it can be adapted. The only other copy of my knowledge is here on ATS. I guess I won't loose it all if I have an event anyway. Most people have great experience which never gets written down. The net could be a way of combining all this knowledge....Hmmm...TPTB could loose control if the net is allowed to continue uncensored.

a reply to: ketsuko

Is it really so hard to be humble and admit you make mistakes? That's all you have to do.

I've done that all my life, and said so at least three times in this very thread.
No, it's not hard. So, if that's all I have to do -- I'm good then.


Even if I don't believe in "original sin" and "Christ dying for our sins" and the resurrection and him being the only way.
Okay, cool. Thanks.

a reply to: ketsuko

We all want to believe the best of ourselves all the time when it is and isn't warranted.

We do?

I spend plenty of time thinking about how lame I am, about the mistakes I've made, and wondering if I'm a worthwhile human being. The bottom line? I think I'm doing okay.
There's no such thing as "perfect." I don't aspire to be "perfect" and I certainly don't see myself as such.

I just try to be acceptable.

Have always tried to do my best. Have failed countless times. I admit that. Does it condemn me? I don't think so. If I use my brain to think things through, and try to make up for mistakes - and apologize when I've been remiss - that seems to me what "God" would want. One of my shortcomings is that I can't make myself believe in the church doctrine -
so, that's that.

Can you bow to him? Even just the thought of Jesus in your mind while you take a knee and accept him? If you can not do this right now then you are not a christian. Can you say Jesus i accept you and all you have done while submitting yourself with a bow? If yes then you are ready for christ and all he is offering.

a reply to: deadeyedick
She can't worship a deity that she doesn't even believe for sure exists. Buzzy ... best bet ... pray and ask God ... show yourself to me in an unquestionable way. Then strap on a seat belt and prepare for the ride of your life.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
I wanted to know how they would 'receive me' if I approached them. That's all. It's not so nefarious as you're making it out to be. Last year I actually contemplated a plan to attend EVERY church within a square mile of my home - unannounced, to see how I would be received by the parishioners/congregations. I guess this was a way to do that without leaving home.

What I said wasnt really "nefarious." Its not so much getting responses, its more about what kind of responses we get depending on how we ask. If you say things like "I believe Jesus probably existed" and then ask "am I a Christian?" Well, it kind of answers the question before it is even asked. What Jesus taught, however, are concepts that are far beyond any attempt by mankind to give "ownership" to just one way of thinking. So, one can follow the direct teachings of Jesus while not being a Christian. His basic commandments are to "Love God and love one another."

You say that you do not necessarily practice the first tenet and that Jesus only probably existed. It seems to me that the answer to your question is obvious. Thats not to say that you arent a good person, or anything close to that. The title of Christian just doesnt apply though.

I am curious about your curiosity, as it were. Because it seems to be an exploration of social interaction more than an exploration of beliefs. If you are looking for answers to those "big" questions, and some sort of solace, that takes active practice on your behalf rather than relying on how others see you.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: ketsuko



:

Baptized as an infant in the Episcopal Church…Attended churches of that denomination for 16 years…Attended Sunday School…Recited the Nicene Creed every Sunday…Participated in Mom's advent wreath/calendar stuff/bedtime and pre-meal prayers at home…Went to midnight Christmas Eve Mass as well as Sunrise Service at Easter…Sang in church choir…Tried my hardest to be 'worthy.'..Had a role in the Youth Group's production of Jesus Christ Superstar movie we made…Confirmed in Episcopal Church (after classes)…Stopped regular attendance around age 16…First marriage took place in Episcopal Church (after mandatory premarital 'counseling')…Had first child Baptized…Was never "excommunicated" (I don't even think Episcopalians do that, as far as I know)…Started looking into other faiths out of curiosity…No longer an attendee…Do I, or did I ever, believe:..Nicene Creed? No..Jesus's existence? Yes, probably…Jesus's message? Yes, insofar as the "Golden Rule" is concerned…Unconditional Forgiveness? Yes…Original sin? No…He died for our sins? No…Resurrection? Not the way it's taught. Maybe the swoon theory…Rose into heaven on a cloud? Nope…Will come again? No…Will judge everyone? No…Hell? No….Heaven with wings, halo, harp on cloud? Nope...
One life only? No. (Reincarnation? Yes.)..Once saved always saved? No…Jesus is the only way? No…The Bible is the inerrant word of God? No…Works or faith or both? Works only.

WOW ..no wonder you are so effed up!!

As you should be able to discern from all of the responses from most of the Christians the only requirement for being a Christian is believing you are a Christian.Every thing else is quibbling over doctrines.
Now that you can "official" declare yourself not a Christian you are in very good company.The man that many believe started Christianity is not a Christian nor were his friends.The religion of Christianity was created by Christians not by Yahoshua or his apostles.The fact is most of the things believed about Yahoshua are not true and completely contradict the source (the scriptures) that those doctrines were extrapolated from.

now go and be Christian no more…

a reply to: Rex282

WOW ..no wonder you are so effed up!!

I know! Right?
I appreciate your response, Rex.

Yeah, - I AM all effed up!! Oh well, I'll just keep on truckin', and see how it all ends. At the very least, my life is okay - with me. It is what it is. And certainly, it isn't boring....(Not that other people's lives are boring - that is not AT ALL what I'm saying....)

- I'm just thinking back on my own life. There's been plenty of drama, confusion, mistake-making, etc. But I wouldn't do it differently if I had the chance.

I am what I am. Warts and all.

a reply to: Serdgiam

I am curious about your curiosity, as it were. Because it seems to be an exploration of social interaction more than an exploration of beliefs.

That is exactly what it is.

If you are looking for answers to those "big" questions, and some sort of solace,

No, I'm not.

that takes active practice on your behalf rather than relying on how others see you.

I'm fully aware of that. I practice daily. The question still seemed to me to be worth posing to the board.

I've said several times now: it doesn't really "matter" - I don't really "care" - I just wanted to know the views of others.

I have views of other members, too - and if they asked me the question, I would be willing to answer them and give my reasons/explanation. I did not mean it to offend or "bait" anyone.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: manna2

absolutely not.

"Absolutely not" what?
It didn't prompt you to think about your own faith? Okay then. Just wondered.

i thought it was pretty obvious you were baiting christiand from the get go. My first post addressed you with the word play you were engaged in. I played pool for a living in my youth and played professional poker for a number of years. What you were doing is called "the business" you were giving us the business. We see now what your true motives are.You, through your pride, thought in your heart that christians are dense and that we live with superficial ideals that govern us. That you, this great person, is more a christian than all those phonies and after you tell us all how christian you are weld all have to sit back and "question our faith". But you got something else didn't you? I saw Christian after Christian lovingly share with you how you simply had it wrong. That no, you simply had no idea what being a true Christian entails. You set a trap and fell in it. In the end you showed nothing but pride, a mortal sin that is the most common of all iniquities that seperate us from the love of our Father in Heaven. Your initial attempts at sincerity now look like a faux love that was meant to deceive others into the hole you first dug for us then fell into yourself. Your definition of christian which you attempted to redefine to make yourself its poster child was soon destroyed by those that actually could define it. You are not a Christian, but you are a christian. A worldly self appointed deity that through pride sets herself up above others and sets traps in order to elevate herself. Now that you, pridefully, explain your true motives we all can see how much you think of yourself and how it molds you into believing others are hypocrites by denying how good a person you are by comparison.

but now after exposing yourself we can see the pride that is present from op to now.
You never made me question my faith. You brought nothing to the table but a false sincerity. I picked up on it from the onset and played the same word games with you but it flew right over your head, which was way up there btw. To think you made someone question their faith by raising yourself up as the model is .....wow!!, what can be said? What great pride you have grandma. Nobody fell in the hole you dug but you.