Firefighter chases dog and both are missing 411?

I've read the whole thread over the course of the last 2 evenings.
It's unfortunate that the man did not survive.

I read the first three 411 books by David Paulides.

There are several things that strike me as similar to the cases he has written about.

1. This case is in the same area as a cluster of other cases.
2. The victim was with other people and disappeared/got separated with no good reason why.
3. The victim had a dog with him. (lots of them have dogs with them, especially the kids)
4. The victim was found dead in an area of much higher elevation than where he started.
(this happens a lot and it goes against normal behavior even in lost or confused people)
5. The victim was found in terrain that was difficult to get to even though he was wearing no shoes.
(lots of victims are found in difficult terrain when there is no reason to be there. Being barefoot is another similarity but he left camp barefoot so this point is null.)
6. The the spot he was found in had apparently been searched before.
(Most of these cases have this feature)
7. He was found several days after he vanished near the place he was last seen that had been searched.
(They are found close to the area they vanish from)
8. The dog showed up days later in good condition.
(usually a healthy dog will show up the same day if they get lost. The case animals disappear for several days and reappear.)
9.This guy went against all of his training and ran off into the night without even shoes.
(These cases often involve the victim acting out of character or being odd in their actions)

They might find more similarities.

Weird case.

a reply to: badgerprints
Almost didn’t recognize you in your new ‘get up’…
Thanks for your thoughts.
I’ll engage, and see if anything emerges.

“…in the same areas as a cluster of other cases…”
Agreed.
Oddly (imo)…a number of threads have popped up, just in the last week or two (a thread by Kantzveldt, another by signalfire)…it would seem that there is a lot of high strangeness in, around & surrounding that area of the West Coast.
‘…disappeared or got separated from companions without ample/good reason…’
In this case –(which might or might not be in contrast with those you are referencing)– there was Only One other person (though – we might add one more ‘witness’…being, Duke)…whose published/reported story…leaves much to be desired &/or questioned.
‘…had a dog…’
How can that be important?
What purpose could that serve…?
Does – having a ‘trusty’ pet on a wilderness hiking venture…make one more vulnerable, predictable or otherwise attractive…some way?
…just wondering…
‘…found…in…much higher elevation…’
(“…goes against normal behavior even in lost or confused people…”)
Normal people in normal situations…and normal people that are lost or confused/disoriented… I agree.
Maybe you were going here, as well – but – except for the information attributed to the “trackers’” – that Herdman’s footprints/tracks were not indicative of haste/flight – the most likely answer for the journey to the cliff-side…is “Fright” or “Terror”.
So – do you think they found only 1 print…or, a full set…or…a handful, or dozen…?
Could make a difference in how much merit to give any conclusion relying on information derived from the ‘trackers’’ reported observations.
‘…found…in…difficult terrain…wearing no shoes…’
(“…left camp barefoot so…point is null…”)

‘…the spot…had apparently been searched before…’
I’m sorry… Maybe I missed it… I did not know the above.
If this is true…or – if you could point to where this was stated…that would place a big question mark on the Official Story as it was presented by the Deputy Sheriff and the Sheriff’s Dept. Pilot.
Not intending to put you on the spot… I’m just interested in whether this information needs to be factored in to the equation. If not verified, it will simply be added to the pile of Other Questions WithOut Answers.
‘…found…days after…near the place…last seen…that had been searched…’
Again – being unfamiliar with this (already been searched) bit of data…I don’t know what weight to give it…
‘…dog show(s) up days later in good condition…’
Wonder if my dog would… One of my dogs might survive… The other would be breakfast sausage post haste.
That is strange.
Though – they saw the dog on at least two consecutive days…which would have been Days 5 & 6 (+/-) since Herdman’s disappearance (and possibly, death)…
What made him decide to finally find/make his way back to the start?
‘…goes against training…(acting out of character)’
I do not see Looking For Duke as the kind of motivation that would have sent/drawn him, at night, at least a mile along/in the creek…then, at least another mile through even more treacherous and difficult terrain…to his death…much less – barefoot and in shorts.
As you say – for a pro (outdoorsman, Emergency Services, athlete)…these purported actions are way out of character.

a reply to: WanDash

Had a dog. Why is that important?
Just the strange cases in missing 411 series.
An unusually high number of the missing people had dogs with them when they disappeared. The dogs either never came back or came back after several days when normally they would have been back for dinner or found by searchers if they had been able.

The spot had been searched before.
Yes, the spot had been searched on foot and from the air according to one article I ran across.
He wasn't far from the campsite apparently.

These 411 cases have a majority of victims found in spots that had been searched previously and they are usually found a few to several days after that spot has been searched. So these victims disappear and cannot be found by concentrated searches. They are then found days or weeks later in the search areas that were covered immediately after their disappearance.

The other extreme is for them to be found in places that they should never have been able to physically reach.

There is a phenomenon that seems to occur with many of the victims that are found alive.
They hide from or run from the searchers.
They are found without clothing and are dazed and confused.
They often are found in muddy or swampy areas but they are clean.
In wooded areas many, or most of them are found with their skin nearly shredded as if the ran or crawled through thick brush or brambles.
They have even found several very small children high up in trees that they could not have climbed.
Many of these victims are unable to recall anything about where they were or what had happened to them in the previous several days.

The list goes on but the people in the 411 books have a very high number of all of these symptoms.
They are only in the book if they fit into several of these parameters.

Also, these happen in dense clusters across the USA, mostly in national forest or national parks.

a reply to: badgerprints

Very interesting, especially since I Live right by a national forest. Thanks, I will have to do some research on this myself.

a reply to: RunForTheHills

Look up David Paulides.
He has a website.
The 4 books in the missing 411 series are available there.
The ones on amazon and other sites are 2 and 3 times as much as retail.
I've read the first 3
I recommend anyone start with the 411 east or west and see if it's your cup of tea before buying the others.
The cases are presented as factually as possible with no conjecture on the cause.

a reply to: badgerprints
...Reqarding my inquiry about the Dog...
I don't know why it's important...
But - if it pops up as a common criteria in many of these cases...one might wonder 'why?'.
If there is a particular kind of 'predator' behind these cluster-disappearances...why would a dog not be a deterrent?
Rather - it seems that dogs increase the odds of becoming a victim (being selected).
And - it seems that the dogs are rarely-if-ever the victims.

...The spot - searched before...
The campsite was almost two miles from where the body was found.
The Deputy Sheriff stated that they had not searched (or even considered searching) that far up the mountainside.
Aside from flights in and out of the area (including the possibility of drone flight imagery)- it seemed to me that there was little to no possibility that anyone had devoted any effort to that area prior to the chopper pilot.
I do recall a statement, somewhere, that the flights in/out might have viewed that area...but nothing caught their attention enough to devote any 'search efforts' to it.
They, likewise, noted that, even after the body had been spotted by the chopper...and S&R deputies were dropped off to verify/identify/recover...they had difficulty distinguishing it from the landscape.
Looking closely at the terrain in the immediate vicinity...I can understand why no effort would be invested in that direction, without ample suspicion.

In considering the Deputy’s placement of “Last Seen” –(as physically demonstrated in the Press Conference announcing the discovery of the deceased body in the location labeled as “Vantage2” here)– and further considering Sespe Creek’s physical parameters and limitations from the point identified as the “Friday Night Campsite”…to and beyond where Byars last saw him (as illustrated by the Deputy in this KTLA5 video & article)…this – to me – would have been a terrifying trip…
--- JUST…the path we are most certain that he took (not convinced…but – this is where Byars reported losing contact…and, it could work with the rest of the story, as we know it, now)…
I don’t think we have to debate the issue of “could he?”…but…perhaps, the questions…“why would he?” – or – “why would AnyOne?”…deserve a little more time…in the sun.

If you inch along the creekpath on Google Earth, past the Point of Know Return (“Last Seen”), there are no nice, pleasant options out of the river bottom…for a long way.
And, if you bypass the first stretch of ‘best opportunities’ (to climb out), you will be in for an immediate transition to ‘virtually no opportunities’…for another 2/3-or-more miles…before another difficult, but doable opportunity presents itself.
Virtually any place he might have started climbing out…would have presented an incline ratio of 1 unit forward and 1 unit upward/higher…
That is work.
I don’t care if he was a marathoner, pentathlete or Iron Man…
He had just spent a full day hiking (being the 2nd full day of hiking) through what is regularly described as very difficult environs…then, just traversed 1 or 2 miles, barefoot, at night, through the Sespe Creek…and then – had to work like an abused beast of burden to ascend the mountain (for what reason? – a better view? – to prove something? – ?)…

If he elected the first set of doable opportunities…why did he continue going/climbing ‘south’ (SW)?
If he missed the first doable opportunities to climb out…and chose the next group (which would have been a slight overshoot…to where he ended), why did he try (apparently) to climb the rock face, going back in the direction he’d come from?

~ * ^ * ~ ^ * ^ ~
Back to the fishermen…
If, after rescuing Byars, and considering his desperate tale, they decided to go ‘looking’ for Herdman (or – whatever-else they might have been looking for) on foot…the shortest crow-flight from the Trailhead, was in the range of 3 miles…with all of it, mountains & wilderness.
If they followed the trail…they probably travelled 6 +/- miles (minimally)…on foot.

Were these fishermen also ‘trackers’?

Unless Byars gave them some outstanding descriptions & directions…how in the freak did they find the campsite… ?

The first mention of the fishermen in this thread, came from roadgravel, in a post dated June 21, 2014…and found on Page 7 of this thread.
The referenced article, published by the San Gabriel Valley Tribune, was dated June 20, 2014.
Until then, all that had ever been stated, was – Byars looked for Herdman, left supplies, tried to find his way out…got lost and disoriented…but, made his way back to civilization, and contacted the authorities (Sunday evening).
In this first (that I have found – and, certainly, first in this thread) mention of the fishermen, they are only credited with “helping” Byars. (also saying that they frequent a nearby creek)
So – we are told that they were involved in the story, as of June 15th, but no mention of them until June 20th…

Then, in this post, published only 20 minutes after the previous post…roadgravel gives more detail than was in the previously referenced SVG Tribune article…being – the fishermen helped Byars back to the parking area…and found a/the backpack belonging to Herdman…and that they called the authorities after hearing about the incident on the news…
roadgravel goes on to question some of the same quirks about this aspect of the story, as I am questioning, here.

Was it ‘the news’, ‘the authorities’, or ‘whom’…that was purposefully leaving them out of the story?
And – why might it have become convenient/necessary to introduce this piece of the puzzle 5 or more days after-the-fact?

In this post by roadgravel, found on Page 10…more information seems to have been leaked to the public…where Sgt. Kevin Donoghue of the Ventura County Sheriff’s Office claimed that “Byars was dehydrated and appeared disoriented when the fishermen found him on Sunday”…

In this article, published by the San Gabriel Valley Tribune on June 20th…it is stated that:

“…The fishermen called investigators after hearing about the missing firefighter on the news and indicated they found a bag left behind by Byars…” (according to Sgt. Buschow)

(How does one indicate that they have found something?)

So – if this is an accurate depiction of what transpired…then – when did they find the “bag”, and when did they call “investigators”?
There were already feet on the ground, on Sunday evening, according to one or more articles.
There were certainly feet on the ground…in the vicinity beginning Monday morning…
WHEN did they find the bag?

...So – they didn’t know it was a big deal until they saw/heard it on the news?
When did the story first make the news?
Probably Monday – June 16th, 2014.
Surely, they didn’t insert themselves into the search area…after an organized and concerted effort was fully underway…
But – they didn’t know it was important enough to call the authorities until…they heard/saw it on the news?

I, obviously, have some ideas/suspicions/theories on this…but, will take a breather, before attempting to put them into written format.

Thanks for taking the time to consider these…thoughts.



ETA: Starling brought up the coincidentality of "two fishermen"...as being something found in one or more of the 'Paulides' accounts.

More thoughts and questions regarding the –Anglers– angle…

When did the investigators first learn of the fishermen?
Did Byars tell them?

What time of day did Byars & the fishermen come upon each other?
Where…did they come upon each other?
Was it along some path, trail or road?
Were they trudging along a waterway, or actually…fishing?

Did they take him back to their vehicle, and, from there, drive to his vehicle?
(if so – how long did that take?)
(also if so – where was their vehicle with relation to the campsite and to Byars’ vehicle?)

Or - did they accompany him to the top of a hill, to point out landmarks to show/guide his way back to the parking area?
- - - If so…did they then have second thoughts, and decide to search for Herdman &/or the campsite &/or Duke … ?

According to the Sheriff's multiple testimonies in this regard – Byars’ life was probably saved/rescued by these fishermen.

…- Dehydrated - Disheveled - Disoriented -…

We have not been given a 'time of day/night' that Byars contacted the authorities…but - I don't see how they could continually use the phrase "two full days" (regarding his search for Herdman and trip back to civilization), if he had related the tale to LE before 2 PM (or so).

Yet – Search & Rescue had feet on the ground…Sunday evening.
That evening's search was suspended because of darkness (presumably), and full-on S&R operations began the following (Monday) morning.

Surely (?) – if the fishermen went immediately (or thereabout/s) to find the camp &/or Herdman…they could not have been back to their vehicle before S&R was in the area.

Again - - - When did the fishermen first contact “investigators”?

If they were charitably donating their time and effort into…Herdman/Duke…I must believe that they ‘cared’…and would want the authorities to know what they had discovered – being, presumedly, the first in the area since Byars.
(also meaning that their tracks might/would be mixed in with the those of Byars, Herdman, Duke and/or any other potential witness/culprit)

If these fishermen were a couple of “Mick Dodge”s – that might help explain their disappearance – but doesn’t so easily explain how they heard/saw/read the news, or how they ‘contacted investigators’ (unless, it was ‘on scene’/face-to-face).

~~~~~~~~~~~

We do not know which direction Byars was heading (or – intending to travel) when the decision was made to…go for help.
The most logical choice would have been…toward his vehicle (unless he had Herdman's keys, and Herdman's vehicle was parked closest).
Was his vehicle the one parked at the start of the hike…or, at the end?

2 days after last being seen by S&R within a half-mile of the creek near the campsite-or-body, Duke had travelled 10-12 miles…to a parking area where the car had been parked.
Seems I read that this location was where Herdman’s vehicle had been parked. (could be wrong)

They weren’t that far away from the trailhead, that started their hike.
The campsite was located such that they would only have needed to backtrack 500 or 600 feet, to rejoin the westward-following creek trail for 12-15 miles…to a parking location.

But – why would the vehicle have been parked there…if the online version of Herdman’s hiking map is accurate?

That map says that he had planned to travel past the Sespe Condor Sanctuary, and through Devil’s Gate (iow – south)…
That would suggest, to me, that they would have parked the second vehicle…south of Devil’s Gate… …Which would not be a 10-12 mile journey from the campsite.
10 miles south of the campsite would have placed the parking area where Duke was found – in the north side of Fillmore.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
If anyone is interested, I would welcome joinder, agreement, disagreement, discussion or…redirection.
Otherwise – see ya next time.

a reply to: WanDash

WanDash...I'm gonna try and reply back to you as best as I can. You cover so many absolutely brilliant (baffling) points that whenever I read through them my mind is just jumping back and forth non-stop. Leme try and collect them and lay them out...

Firstly, your EPIC summation of the entire topic is awesome and incredibly useful. Any newcomers can easily glance through them and get a decent sense of what's happened.

Now, regarding dogs and missing people. It is pretty clear from Paulides' books that dogs are not a deterrent to whatever it is that is causing people to disappear. Additionally, dogs are often fine and return home in almost as good condition as they were when they left. Why is this? No idea.

However, I have had a very abstract thought on the topic. Very abstract.

Several cases mentioned in Paulides' books mention dogs have disappeared for a notable period of time before the person vanishes. Initially, I had thought about this in connection with Bigfoot (which have been reported to mimic the sounds of animals, including dogs). Take the dog, wait until your target's alone, then mimic the dog's bark, and wait for them to come to you.
But it doesn't have to be Bigfoot. Technology can perfectly imitate a sound and play it back on demand.

I'm not going to even touch on the spot where the body was found. WAAAAY too many problems with all of that!

The biggest, and most mysterious point for me, is the issue of the fishermen.
Aside from their escalating (and confusing) levels of "assistance," the timing of events leaves me with....niggles.
Let's assume a loose time scale:
13th June - Herdman disappears.
15th June - Byars reports him missing and initial searches begin.
16th June - The day news reports become more prevalent, and the day fishermen would have logically first "saw it on the news."

Now, if this is the time scale we work with, it means Byars encountered the fishermen most likely late on the 14th, or early on the 15th. I find it incredibly unlikely that Byars led them back to his camp. According to MULTIPLE sources he was dehydrated, disheveled and lost. Lost. I believe it's more likely they saw him to his vehicle, took the details from him and promised to take a look. Alone.
In my humble opinion, these nameless, faceless fishermen were alone at the last known place Mike Herdman was seen alive. Before search and rescue got there, before civil authorities arrived and before the public even got word of it. Why? They "indicated" they had found Herdman's bag. When was this? If they found the bag, and then told police about it after seeing the news, that means Byars HADN'T told the police about it. Which means he wasn't in the area with them while they were searching. Which means at some point after Byars had gone to the authorities, they were back in the area and clearly tracking Herdman. Alone. Without S&R.
And as has been said, this isn't the first time anonymous fishermen/faceless hikers have been seen after someone disappeared, offered assistance to a companion and then vanished. I don't know what it is they did there, quite possibly erased tracks or sign of Herdman, evidence of a third party or animal sign. And I'm sure we recall the Guard being deployed in the search for little Dennis Martin and acting totally independently of the rest of S&R
I'm not sure what exactly Byars told police about his encounter with the fishermen, but from what we've been fed via the press, I'd immediately be suspicious of both them and Byars. Byars was interviewed (apparently) so thoroughly that police released him in almost no time and publicly stated that they had no reason to suspect him of any wrongdoing.
But what of those fishermen? Who were they? What were they doing the night Herdman vanished? Why were they in the area Byars found them?

originally posted by: JackofBlades
…regarding dogs and missing people. It is pretty clear from Paulides' books that dogs are not a deterrent to whatever it is that is causing people to disappear. Additionally, dogs are often fine and return home in almost as good condition as they were when they left.
…Several cases…mention dogs have disappeared for a notable period of time before the person vanishes. Initially, I had thought about this in connection with Bigfoot (which have been reported to mimic the sounds of animals, including dogs). Take the dog, wait until your target's alone, then mimic the dog's bark, and wait for them to come to you.
But it doesn't have to be Bigfoot…

Thanks for the conversation, JackofBlades!
In advance apology, I admit that this reply will fall miserably short of either ‘thorough’ or ‘satisfactory’.
It seems, though, that each consideration paints various features and shadows more vividly, and… so …
…I hope to address &/or respond to all of it…

…Please consider that…I doubt many parts of the story.
The more I look…the more it looks…contrived…
Hope I’m wrong.
Nonetheless - - - -

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

………An excellent line of thought!!
I have, likewise, wondered if dogs aren’t a part of the scheme.
- A Scheme in the sense that…many scenarios would need to be common-enough in the overall Missing-411 Theory, to prove ‘more than Theory’.

In this case, for example
– utilizing the presence of a dog/pet…to gain advantage on…a/the human.
In this case, also
– human remains evince…depredation (among other things).

Whether Bigfoot, Werewolves, or Bacon Fairies…it seems that the dogs are easily lured from their normal individual (“never left his side” – “inseparable”) behaviors.
(If I am over-stating that aspect, please let me know…)

Other schemes, though, must likewise be part of said overall theory…as the ‘lured dog’ component is not found in every tale.

Therefore, the theory needs a bigger or better explanation than – an aboriginal predator that has evolved to prefer human victims over dog…but/& that…dogs will follow…over humans…

Duke was reported as “scared of people”…after the two sightings. (Days 6 & 7…or so…since Herdman’s disappearance)
After the first sighting (& on the same day…?), the Widow-That-Was-or-Was-To-Be was taken by chopper…to attempt to improve the chances of capturing Duke.
The reports did not tell us much of what happened.
So – a question mark is painted over:
1. Did they see the dog, with Mrs. Herdman on board?
2. If they did – was it only once?
3. If they did, and it was not only once…how many times?
4. If they did, once or more times – Was Mrs. Herdman set down on the ground (don’t even know if that would have been possible/practical given some of the environs in the general vicinity)…and, if so, was she far enough removed from the chopper, to allow Duke an honest chance to address or rejoin her…?
(Did Mrs. Herdman & Duke even get along? … … … Not an uncommon situation.)
5. Did they fail to see the dog, with Mrs. Herdman on board... ? … …and her appearance was for sex appeal, only... ? (Hollywood! – We Love It!)
Otherwise…we’re stuck with – “The Probable-Widow, tried and failed to retrieve Duke…too.”

If we take a Normal World viewpoint…and that it was just curiosity that led the dog away…, Herdman &/or Byars should have found Duke in relative-short-order.

- If a dog is running away from something… At some point, when it doesn’t feel/sense the threat immediately behind…it will generally turn around…to see if its terror is still…threatening…

Did Herdman…while scrambling through the creekway…see Duke…atop some boulder…looking for signs of terror? …or, to invite Herdman…on…?

Or --- did Duke…never turn around?

If so – Duke was in pursuit of something that he preferred…over his ‘master/buddy/human-companion’…

Or
– Duke had a vision of the end of the world…and wasn’t turning around or stopping…‘til he found..it…(…the end of the world…)

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

In any case – – for Herdman to have continued scrambling through the creek bottom as far as Byars claims to have witnessed (1 mile, more or less)…and if we are to presume that he was, indeed, still pursuing (or – trying to find) Duke, at that point…it would appear that Herdman considered the dog’s behavior – extraordinary.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

The question has been asked in thread, a few times… “Did/Didn’t they hear the dog barking?”
I wonder about that, too…
But – if you look at the ground elevation of Sespe Creek from the campsite to past Devil’s Gate…it is on a declining grade, with some places (such as – right at and below the campsite) dropping in elevation rapidly.
This suggests running water… …continually hitting rocks…
Most of the way, was ‘two-sided’ (with some similarity to a canyon).
I am thinking that, in the creek bottom, the surround-sound levels could have been pretty loud…and, unless Duke was close, it might not have mattered if he barked – the report would have been well below background noise, until/unless they/he exited the creek…up one of the mountainsides.

So…I have no problem entertaining the notion that Herdman &/or Byars may not have been able to hear either Duke, or each other…at some point/s.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Will continue…

originally posted by: JackofBlades

A little more pertaining to the dog – Duke – before more of your commentary…

If the general tilt of the work/s of Paulides is toward “something more than coincidence”, then a culprit is needed.
Is the culprit a furry friend walking in the shadow of mankind…as a cousin…long-thought-lost brother…Next-Gen… ?
( …that would change the way I prepare for any trips, from now on… )

Are sirens weaving hooks that seduce man and beast to a…spell?

Bigfoot – Wildmen – Tribes & Clans… Why?

Could/Would that be why drone flights have recently been de-authorized (criminal if not pre-authorized) in National Lands…?

IMO a Normal World viewpoint does not accommodate the oddities present. And even less – if these (&/or similar) oddities are somewhat-‘common’ in clusters (as suggested in ‘Paulides’’ books).

So – again – we are back to the question… “Is this what really happened?”

Did Duke take off from camp…in such a manner…that Herdman was alarmed/startled/terrorized - so…that he abandoned all protocols, training and common-sense…to…
… …WHAT?
… … … Retrieve him?

Did he not CALL?
Did he not DEMAND that the dog return?

If he did (Call/Demand)…expecting that the dog would obey – Then – I can understand the consternation that would ensue - -
- but, it would also seem that it must have been tempered with an argument like – “Okay – This isn’t right. He ALWAYS comes when I yell that way. He has NEVER failed to return to that command… Something is up…”
– which would SURELY be followed by a brief (at least) conversation with Byars…while Herdman prepared (donning shoes/boots, flashlight/lantern, samurai sword, etc…) for an unforeseeable duration…in the wilderness.

But - - - - - Since he did not prepare…I would bet against the above scenario.


Nevertheless & Onward and Backward…to your commentary related to the Fishermen-Anglers-Angels -Angle…s

originally posted by: JackofBlades…I'm not going to even touch on the spot where the body was found. WAAAAY too many problems with all of that!
…The biggest, and most mysterious point for me, is the issue of the fishermen.
Aside from their escalating (and confusing) levels of "assistance," the timing of events leaves me with....niggles.
Let's assume a loose time scale:
13th June - Herdman disappears.
15th June - Byars reports him missing and initial searches begin.
16th June - The day news reports become more prevalent, and the day fishermen would have logically first "saw it on the news."
…Now, if this is the time scale we work with, it means Byars encountered the fishermen most likely late on the 14th, or early on the 15th. I find it incredibly unlikely that Byars led them back to his camp. According to MULTIPLE sources he was dehydrated, disheveled and lost. Lost. I believe it's more likely they saw him to his vehicle, took the details from him and promised to take a look. Alone. …

You find it unlikely that Byars led them back to the campsite… I do, as well.
If we’re talking ‘normal everyday fishermen that frequent a nearby creek…out doing what they do, frequently’…I might/would agree…as follows:
I don’t think they would immediately drop their plans and progress…and lead him back to his vehicle, without hearing enough of the story to convince of, at least, urgency.
For them to have been able to find/locate the campsite…after discovering Byars, then hiking or driving (or hiking-then-driving) him to his vehicle… They would definitely need to be frequent guests of the park/forest.

What kind of sense can you make of someone’s directions…if they are Clinically “Disoriented”?


Not only did they find it…but, found it – found the Backpack of supplies left for Herdman (according to some sources) – and avoided (presumedly) the first group of official searchers.

When did they contact ‘investigators’? ;
When did Byars mention them to ‘investigators/authorities’? ; and
When was this information/side-story released or given to the media & public?
How did they contact the investigators?
Which investigators did they contact?
Are they reachable - - - without the Bat-Signal?

As you – I find the probability that they were the first to be on site…alone…where all the footprints, and backpacks & gear and…would need to be left untouched by anyone-or-thing but nature…to give investigators the best chance at determining what happened, in effort to find Herdman alive (if possible)…
After not seeing their contribution/s reported in the first few days of news…did they suspect that suspicion/s might be drawing their way…?

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Will be back.

Regarding Badgerprints' comment -
"'...found...in...much higher elevation...' ("...goes against normal behavior even in lost or confused people...")"
- and the follow-up question --
...how many prints did the professional trackers find?
- -
If they were finding a solid trail (full or partial sets spaced, in some regular fashion) from the campsite to the place he was "last seen"
...and...in the next place or two or three (that fit with the pattern from the last/previous mile of 'Herdman trail')
...they see nothing
...and, nothing again...in the next place or two that something should have been...
...it would seem pretty obvious that the search focus, should be narrowed and concentrated on
'where tracks were last seen -to- twice as far as the next expected tracks were absent'
... -Focus everyone, immedately, on the east-side 'canyon walls'
... -to rule it out, before turning their attention around to the west-side of the creek
... -and the first 15' to 50' up the steep embankment
... -looking for any sign or indication.

- Unless - they were thinking - something could/might 'swoop' him from his footprints --- ?

I mean - why would you throw your hands up, and say "He just disappeared"...if you hadn't thoroughly searched Where he could have disappeared...normally?

Did they see ANY sign...when moving/tracking down the creek...that he had come 'back-up' the creek...?

If not - and - if they were looking (professional trackers) for ANY sign...to tell them whatever it told...and/And the disappearance of sign in the creekbed became the turning-point, one has to wonder - how much a Sheriff is willing to risk the lives of others, to find/save just...one.

Mike Herdman looked to be a very fit man...in physical prime...and, he knew the area...
If he went up that mountainside...and didn't make it back - 'Could a monster be up there...? Like a Big Rabbit... Or Dragon...or...Bottomless Pit...? - after all, its right in the shadow of the Devil's Heart'...

[ That is odd, though -- The Devil's Gate is on the way out of the Forest... In elevation, it is nearer sea level than Devil's Heart'...
Might that mean that...we might be wary of what comes out of that forest...and where...it comes out? ]

Okay - doesn't matter... I was trying to show that a thorough investigation might have been impossible...

I am sure many Search & Rescuers are able trackers...but, the difficulty of such an operation (trying to track, while making haste to cover as much ground as possibile) would limit the 'forensic quality' of any evidences found or suspected...once one more boot is put on the ground.
Multiply that by 10, 15, 30, 50...and the only 'sign' is going to be body parts, or clothing or a smattering of freshly broken & bent vegetation...with blood on it... Probably wouldn't be able to identify any 'scuffle' marks or make sense of them.

If the Sheriff elected to pursue a shotgun attack - he wasn't expecting(/intending) to(/on) find(/ing) Herdman, alive.

And - I suspect that is exactly what we saw.
A massive S&R operation...for show.

If that is the case - it begs the question - "Who decided to give us this show? And, why?"

We just witnessed a similar solidarity...in the Pennsylvania Trooper Shooter manhunt.

Why did they invest so much into a case, where the odds of RESCUE were slim & slimmer?
So much of the story seems inane?

And...the case is sealed? ! ?

~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~
Page 40

Page 40 begins discussing the toxicology report, its various implications, and, of course, questioning the official story.
randyvs offers a graphic video on UFOs & Human Mutilations.

Again, randyvs offers another (6th in a series) video on UFO’s and human mutilations conclusion….

~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~
Page 41

JackofBlades offers a link to the webpage of a Tarot reader that works with missing-people/children cases, and has purportedly done readings for a number of the subjects in Paulides’ books.

In the following post JackofBlades offered another link that had been the opening subject of the prior post.

randyvs posts a clip on a missing child that includes the “Missing 411” tagline – Jaryd Atadero.

Skeletonized pointed at a myth or legend of De Underjordiske (the ones living underground).

~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~
Page 42

The question of Ektar regarding ‘tracking dogs that don’t track’, is answered by graceunderpressure, stating that – in the 4 Paulides’ books, 50-100 cases demonstrate the same scheme.

Furryhobnob offers some statistics on how many people go missing, per year/week/day…with this link.

randyvs sees Furryhobnob’s link, and raises, with this link regarding yearly tallies on ‘missing persons’ in Briton.

~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~
Page 43

Ektar offers insight into ‘Search & Rescue’ dogs…after talking with a friend who is ‘very familiar’ with the same…

graceunderpressure highlights quotes from an article the San Gabriel Valley Tribune…regarding the toxicology report.

~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~
Page 44

Plenty of banter and discussion…hitting some issues with both fists…but, no external links.

~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~
Page 45

Plenty more banter and discussion…but, no external links.

~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~
Page 46

RUFFREADY offered a news item, of another missing hiker (in the Tetons), whose body was located after days of search…

RUFFREADY offered a link to a canammissingproject video.

~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~
Page 47

Again, RUFFREADY offers an update on the missing Russian student in the Grand Tetons.

EyesOpenMouthShut offers another item about a missing woman/hiker near Aspen, Colorado.

~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~
Page 48

My first stab at identifying the body-location…and how said location relates to other points of interest.
(*Note that the body location was incorrect.*)

VoidHawk pointed to another discussion (Comments section), offsite, where the official story was being questioned.

Another post by EyesOpenMouthShut regarding the mi ssing Colorado hiker.

~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~
Page 49

I revise/correct the body location, showing the body to have been more like 2 miles from the campsite.

research100 posted a link to the “canammissing.com” website, regarding a petition to get the national parks to release their information on missing persons.


randyvs offers another Missing-411 video, regarding James McGrogan.

Discussion of a trip to the scene began on Page 50 and continued on to Page 51. The recaps began, likewise, on Page 51.

See ya.

Index to External Links Itemizations

1st Installment - Part Juan
& 1st Installment - Part Deux
Thread Pages 1 through 7

2nd Installment - by VoidHawk.
Thread Pages 8 through 20

3rd Installment - and some wanderings
Thread Pages 20 and 21

4th Installment - Part Juan
Thread Pages 22 through 29
&
4th Installment - Part Dos
Thread Page 30

5th Installment
Thread Pages 31 through 35

6th Installment
Thread Page 36 (regards only dinofinder's contribution)

7th Installment
Remainder of Thread Page 36, and Pages 37 through 39

8th Installment
Thread Pages 40 through 49

------------------------------

This was simply an effort at assisting anyone looking for "source references", without having to wade through 50+ pages.

Just because the Thread Pages after 50 are not included (now)...does not mean that there is no good, outstanding, or otherwise pertinent information therein... I just decided to stop where the Itemizations began.

Best Regards.

a reply to: WanDash

Hey Wan I am very behind on the thread now...
but one thing you mentioned about Herdsman's
wife on the chopper looking for their dog. I do
not think there's anyway in hell that dog would
come to anyone with them arriving on a chopper.

Those are extremely loud & scary.
I am glad this post continues. Are ATSers still
planning on the trip?

Cheers
Ektar

PS Sorry I have been busy & I miss you guys in chat.
I hope to get back soon!

originally posted by: Ektar
...I do not think there's anyway in hell that dog would come to anyone with them arriving on a chopper.

...Those are extremely loud & scary. ...

I'm with you, Ektar
On the other hand - I'm also wondering at the assessment that Duke was 'scared of people'.
Wondering if there's more to it than...scared of a chopper. Would be nice to know, as it might be telling of...something.

...I am glad this post continues. Are ATSers still planning on the trip? ...

I think about it regularly!
Just hoping to get up to speed...so I can do it. (doesn't look easy or simple, at all)

Chat's back up...and the User-based effort is underway for a new chat client.

a reply to: WanDash
Thanks for your reply. I forgot what mix the dog is,
I'm thinking a lab or lab mix? If that is the case
it is rare to see one that is not over joyed with
everyone.
They are extremely friendly...& if it is a lab the
dog would love the wife.

However that dog was afraid of something
in the woods or whatever because it was scared
prior to helicopter & behaving strangely.

This is crazy I know...but I wonder since time has
passed if the dog went with the wife back to the area
if it would pick up on anything? I am not a tracker...only
work with herding dogs & herd.

I still believe that the dog knows what happen & there
are clues with the dog. Something happened besides just a
bloody fall. The dog would NOT behave erratically if it was just
a fall (IMHO). Something happened (I am sure in my opinion).
I do not think the dog would be so scared if his owner walked
off a cliff...yes concerned depending on breed & the bond
between the two...but would NOT be scared & frantic unless
there were an altercation.

It is odd if it is a lab or lab mix that it would have been afraid
of the fisherman...not normal unless they spooked the dog
for their own reason.

My dogs are herding dogs from a well bred herding line so not
every border collie is the same. When they come from strong
working lines they always focus on you. I mean that literally
& can be annoying at times because they are SO focused &
that is why they have to have a job...herding or another job
but have to be worked.

If I went over a cliff that dog would stay right there where
I went over. If something scared them them they would
probably go into hiding but would return to where they last
had contact with me.

Cheers
Ektar

originally posted by: Ektar
...that dog was afraid of something in the woods or whatever because it was scared prior to helicopter & behaving strangely.

...
...I still believe that the dog knows what happen & there are clues with the dog. Something happened besides just a
bloody fall. The dog would NOT behave erratically if it was just a fall (IMHO). Something happened (I am sure in my opinion).
I do not think the dog would be so scared if his owner walked off a cliff...yes concerned depending on breed & the bond
between the two...but would NOT be scared & frantic unless there were an altercation. ...

Thanks again!
You've really stated my thoughts, as well.

Whether Duke was afraid of people...or simply didn't know what to be afraid of - it doesn't seem to fit with either (i) watching Herdman fall to his death, or (ii) finding Herdman's lifeless body after-the-fact.
I have to wonder what's in that dog's head...

They continued to say Duke was a German short-hair mix (in addition to saying he was a specific breed). What that means - I don't know.
We took a puppy from the shelter many years ago... It was black - short-hair - the sign on the cage said "Lab mix". We said "Ok - we want a Lab"...only to find, later, there probably wasn't a strand of Lab-DNA in her entire body (try Bull Terrier).

Appreciate your insights and thoughts!!

originally posted by: WanDash
...They continued to say Duke was a German short-hair mix (in addition to saying he was a specific breed). ...

Correcting the correctable...

According to a twitter comment from @HalEisner, dated June 21, 2014, at 1:10 AM --

"Duke 411: Friends say firefighter Mike Herdman got the Vizsla 3yrs ago as a rescue now, they're trying to rescue him"

According to newser.com's article - Rescuers Hope Harmonica Music Helps Find Missing Man, dated June 20, 2014, updated 29 minutes after initial posting -

"...his dog, a 50-pound Vizsla named Duke..."

(Rabbit Trail - but - wanted to log this quote... "Search crews spotted a dog they believe to be Duke on Wednesday and again yesterday... Their hope is that if they catch Duke, he could lead them back to Herdman...")

According to dog-breeds.findthebest.com,
Vizsla's are a/k/a "Hungarian Vizsla, Magyar Vizsla, and Hungarian Pointer"..., originally from Hungary...short-haired hunting dog...Pointer type, that combines characteristics of both pointer and retriever.
- of an 'attractive golden rust...color'.
Also - apparently good in 'the home'.
User Rating - 4.1 out of 5

...
So - not "German".

a reply to: randyvs
Wanna talk - weird?

June 18, 2013, Michael Hastings died in an automobile crash… I was deeply interested in the mystery surrounding that event.

June 13, 2013 - Michael Hastings Twitter account…went silent. …

June 10, 2014 - I authored a thread, attempting to give one more look at the Michael Hastings story, and see if new or refreshed eyes and minds might bring new insight/s.

June 13, 2014 - Mike Herdman disappeared…and eventually, I grew interested, and participated in the discussion.

In October or November, 2013, the detective in charge of the Michael Hastings' incident purportedly told Michael Krikorian (an investigative/genre journalist & author), "I haven't finished with Hastings' final report" … AND … "No one is going to have access to that anyway…", even though it had been declared "Accident -- No Foul Play".
When 'Krikorian approached said Detective June, 2014, he was again put off with - "I am still waiting on some reports that have taken awhile,", and she apparently further explained that every time a new criminal case comes in, Hastings' gets pushed further back…
So - of course - since it's L.A., that means Hastings' will never have a final report…

And, here, Sept/2014, randyvs is turned away from a case publicly declared "Accident - No Foul Play"…with "Case Is Sealed"…

MH
June 13 - both go silent (publicly, anyway)
California/Hollywood
Both toxicology reports identify drugs in the victims
Neither toxicology report justifies the victims' extreme behavior
Both "No Foul Play Accidents" …are - not available to…Us.

&
Then
There's the spiric anomaly - which should stand as a coincidence…on its own.

-------
I am not attempting to engender or encourage a conspiracy or other-worldly view.
I just grow interested when seeing apparent clusters.
I had not noticed or considered the "MH" connection 'til a few minutes ago - even though I had mentioned to randyvs, at one point, that I would need a day in L.A., if coming to investigate the land, scene, spire…
I wasn't thinking in terms of 'connection/s', other than - "how convenient that I could use one trip to gather information on these two mysteries"…

Anyway!
It is just a set of coincidences.
…Kinda like the 411 Missing mysteries.