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Firefighter chases dog and both are missing 411?

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posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 08:34 AM
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wow, just wow. I couldn't wait to finish reading the replies and get into this thread. S&F!

I've read both the Eastern and Western editions of David Paulide's books Missing 411 (called 411 because David has investigated four hundred and eleven unique missing persons cases) and this story has really got me thinking. There are definitely a few commonalities with the specific kinds of cases that David investigates. I think this case could very well fit David's criteria.

these aren't people who have run away,
they weren't attacked by bears or mountain lions,
they weren't abducted or kidnapped by people
they aren't just lost in the wilderness.

david in the book doesn't directly say that he thinks its bigfoot but you definitely get that sense after reading just a few chapters. it really becomes obvious that there's a serious pattern going on here over hundreds and hundreds of cases. also there are running threads of common factors for each case which make them unique from other regular missing persons cases.

in nearly every case bloodhounds and tracking dogs refuse to track the person scent. they'll sit down or refuse to follow the scent. now if it were just a regular animal attack the dogs would just track whatever it was, bear, mountain lion, whatever. the parks dept has dogs that are specifically trained to track dangerous wildlife. also there is never any blood or evidence of a struggle or attack by an animal like there would be if a bear attacked someone. not to mention bears or mountain lions don't carry away and consume whole bodies., bones etc

also in nearly every case the disappearance is immediately followed by inclement weather. that's one factor im surprised didn't happen in this case and that makes me wonder. torrential down pours or heavy snow fall which impedes the search effort in almost every disappearance in the Missing 411 books. tracks are rare in most of these cases because of this reason and if by chance a track is found the trail often stops without any trace of it picking up again. bodies of water also play a large role in these cases and it seems as though rivers/creeks are used by the "abductor" to travel and eliminate possible tracks.

when a body is actually found (in most cases a body is never found at all), its nearly always found in a place that was already searched by search and rescue or in a place that is abnormally outside of the search perimeter for the given persons age. for example, a 2 year old goes missing, search and rescue guidelines say that 95% of the time a kid 2 and under will be found within "x" amount of miles from where they went missing given a certain amount of time. but, they are found double, triple or quadruple that distance away. and not just further down a trail, we're talking about rough back country, rough terrain, over mountain ridges, past rivers etc. the same happens with those who go missing that are elderly.

in nearly every case if the person's body is found it's found further up in the mountains while it's a persons natural response to walk down hill when lost, not further up. the path of least resistance, not thousands of feet uphill over boulder fields, swamps etc.

it's also extremely common for people when found to be found missing clothes and with scratches all over their body. missing shoes, socks, pants, shirts, hats, jackets etc. some completely naked, some in their underwear only. and the thing is these missing persons supposedly traveled long distances without shoes or socks but, their feet are never dirty or scratched, just their upper body. and sometimes people are even found in places it would be impossible for them to get to by themselves. for example a toddler found in the middle of a dense swamp with water four feet deep sitting on top of a rock in the middle the water, with again their feet bare, dry and clean. in one of the weirder cases a man's pants and shoes were found with several small bones/fragments in the shoe and pant leg, like a couple toes and a tibia, all clean bone, nothing else. like the person dropped their pants and vanished except for a few of their bones.

lastly, there is also a precedent for people going missing with their dogs, or people going missing after going after their dogs. in lots of cases the dog will return before the person and be in almost perfect condition. like they were sheltered and fed. and later the search and rescue will find the persons body. in all cases the dog if it does come back will not lead the way back to its owners body or location. they refuse. there was one case where a dog that came back had deer meat in its stomach but was dehydrated but there was plentiful local supplies of fresh water. so it appeared as if the dog was penned in and fed but not given water. after all the dog didn't hunt a deer down.


anyway, im bookmarking this case with great interest. i can write about this # forever and reading those Missing 411 books changed how i look at our national parks. ill be interested in seeing what turns up of the dog and the person. i bet neither are found alive and if the man is found i bet he won't be able to recall what happened to him while he was lost.
edit on 20-6-2014 by CallmeRaskolnikov because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 09:13 AM
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a reply to: CallmeRaskolnikov

My Gawd Rasko thank you for that most excellent reply.
I was able to recognize the simalarities to Mr.
Palaudes criteria a day or so earlier than when I posted,
but I figured he would be found. With all these people
disappearing like this. I don't believe anything logical
can possibly be the reason. This guy went missing
under a full moon that would allow his partner light to
see where he ran off too.

I also don't believe as of this moment they will ever find him.

edit on Ram62014v14201400000052 by randyvs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 09:25 AM
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a reply to: randyvs

haha, i was super excited when i read your first post, like a giddy school boy. watching a potential Missing 411 case develop right in front of my eyes! I'm just glad that you had the spidey senses to say, wait a tick, this sounds a bit fishy! because i most likely would have never caught site of this case on my own. but there's certainly things that fit the bill so far. david has a section on his site CanAm Missing Project for "current events", new potential 411 cases. and guess what i just found listed there....




Current Events 6/17-A firefighter goes missing in a creekbed where he lost his dog. His friend searches and cannot locate him. This doesn't sound good.www.pasadenastarnews.com... 6/17-It's still too early to say if this case fits the profile, but there are elements that are suspicious. If someone lags behind you on a trail, NEVER let them hike alone.touch.latimes.com.../-1/article/p2p-80530620/


it appears as if we aren't the only ones who are looking after this case!



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 09:38 AM
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a reply to: CallmeRaskolnikov

I've also seen it posted on some other sites including
GLP and Reddit. So I agree with you any way every hour
that passes now is bad for our main character.



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 09:42 AM
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If one wants to go the down the murder path, there were two days for it to be done. He could have been killed anywhere, not just at the stated campsite.

The foot prints and dog tracks at the creek tend to give validity to the story given though. I would think the foot prints would have to be linked exactly to the him to be sure.



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 10:03 AM
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a reply to: randyvs

you're right about that. every hour that passes leaves more of a chance he won't be found alive. 5 days is a long time. I don't think many of the Missing 411 cases went much longer than that with the person being eventually found alive. So it really isn't looking very good at all. And it's terribly sad about the dog getting caught and running away again. Like he knows his owner is still out there and he doesn't want to leave. Or he's so spooked by whatever happened he's in a anxious, nervous, skittish state.



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 10:27 AM
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If he's still alive i hope he has the skills to at least keep himself fed.
5 days without food, that amount of time starts to drive a person insane with hunger and weakness.
Something has happened to him, there is no way he in an able state failed to make his way back to camp to get his gear in the two days it took his buddy to hike out.
I'm starting to believe the missing 411 theory.
edit on 6/20/2014 by EyesOpenMouthShut because: oops



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 04:00 PM
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a reply to: randyvs

Three possibilities come to mind here -

The friend who reported he "ran off barefoot" actually killed him and removed, hid or burned the body.

The other possibility is that he got disoriented, and lost outside of camp. There are tracks by a river bed [probably a dry river bed is my guess], meaning he was lost and looking for water. That is extremely dry country...harsh and dry...desert. He'd be disoriented or dead in 3 days.

The third possibility is more remote, but interesting. The dog ran off for a reason - it smelled something. Unfortunately, what it was chasing turned out to be a mountain lion. Unfortunately again, the hiker came upon the lion and his kill down by the riverded, and was killed himself, and dragged across the rocky ground, and stashed in a tree or a rock cave, or buried by the cat.



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 04:41 PM
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posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 05:10 PM
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originally posted by: roadgravel
If one wants to go the down the murder path, there were two days for it to be done. He could have been killed anywhere, not just at the stated campsite.

The foot prints and dog tracks at the creek tend to give validity to the story given though. I would think the foot prints would have to be linked exactly to the him to be sure.


From this link I just dug up it looks pretty reasonable that "Bare Footprints" are as good as finger prints.

what-when-how.com...

So it should be a slam dunk if the prints are his or not.

Regards, Iwinder



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 05:18 PM
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a reply to: Iwinder

I think murder is by far the most remote possibility
here. Even below being eat'n by carnivorous canabalistic
alien altered Satan worshipping neandertals coined "Bigfoot".



edit on Rpm62014v24201400000011 by randyvs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 05:39 PM
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Randy, great thread and it took me two days to get through it because of other things happening.
Personally myself and the wife have read the first two 411 books so I might be a bit swayed because of what I have read.

My first question to the dog experts here is what kind of dog is that in the picture?
It looks like it is either a chocolate lab or a Weinheimer.

If it is a Weinheimer they are notorious for being just hyper and not listening to commands, very similar attitude to a Dalmatian.

Our neighbours had two of the Weinheimers and let me tell you they were so full of spunk and vigor they were basically unwalkable they were too hyper.

Second question is why take an untrained dog into the back country and not leash it? A dog is a dog and if not leashed it is going to either dash off or wander off....basic stuff right?
I mean we all know dogs love scents and if one picks up the scent of a rabbit its going to go after it unless it is well trained.

A friend of ours owns a beautiful black lab and it hates squirrels to the point they drive him nuts, but with one word he can stop that dog in mid stride chasing a squirrel and I am not kidding.

From what I have read they were only 15 miles into the Park from the trail head? If so those two days are a huge issue in my opinion.

We used to have a cottage up North here in Ontario and we went there every year for a month or two for about 18 years, rattlers and black bears were the norm.

It was about 100 yards to the Lake and it was all rocks and roots, from our first holiday till our last everybody wore rubber knee high boots walking to the lake.

For those unaware the snakes bounce off of the rubber instead of biting you, also my dad always carried his gun with him on the walk.

My point is we were in cottage country and not the back woods but we stayed safe and had fun too.

These two guys sound to me like unprepared for what they were going into, just a opinion but that is how I feel.

I hope to hell he is found alive but I have bad vibes about this one, its been a long time to be just laying there injured and fighting off preditors.

I must agree with a previous poster that the "grow ops or drug farmers" shun attention and do not want anyone searching in their field of operations.


Just my thoughts and questions, enjoying this thread immensely and S&F .

Regards, Iwinder






edit on 20-6-2014 by Iwinder because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 08:25 PM
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a reply to: Iwinder

Not a dog expert, but a life long dog owner...and you are right, if you can't trust the dog to listen to your commands, why would the dog not be leashed?

Also, the firefighter by all accounts is an experienced, outdoors kinda guy. The dog takes off and the firefighter just goes apesh$# crazy and runs after him without shoes? The guy is used to crisis situations. He would have maintained a sense of by the book, put shoes on first, etc...doesn't make logical sense.

I have read the first Paulides book. It scared me. Really bad. I still don't know why.



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 08:59 PM
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a reply to: Iwinder

This thread may be one of my best efforts, only because
of the great posts it has conjured. I love to put ATS to
the task it was here for meant.



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 09:11 PM
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originally posted by: JackofBlades

originally posted by: spookysully
On top of that, these animals are exemplary in their job and they really do live for the hunt. To imply that dogs are useless in this type of situation is ridiculous.


Precisely why there is no reason for the dogs to not track. As spooky says, dogs (in whatever field) live for what they do. Even if you've never seen a sniffer dog in action directly, you can find vids on YouTube of drug dogs, bomb dogs, etc etc all at work, and you can see how happy they are doing it. To them it's a huge game that usually results in treats, praise and affection. While the people are downhearted to find signs of a dead body, the dog is excited because he's done his job and will be rewarded.

a reply to: evc1shop

I assumed that initially too. I mean, running barefoot through such wild country you're bound to leave skin, blood and sweat directly on the environment. Whereas with shoes you're leaving a sort of "second-hand" smell I guess. There is no reason the dogs couldn't track him.

As for his friend killing him, again I'd have to say no. If he killed him at camp, dogs would have been all over that mess. If he'd been killed elsewhere we have to consider how far he could carry a corpse, probably while being hounded by the dog, in such rough terrain. And, if I imagine right, there's no way he could have killed him out of range of cadaver dogs.

The fact his dog has been seen well is worrying. There's no reason the dog would have left his master unless he was scared away from him, lost his master or he was deceased.

I'm hoping so much they find him alive and a little worse for wear. Mainly because it'll teach him not to go racing off barefoot in the middle of the woods!
But I'm honestly already expecting bad news. My thoughts are with his family.

I just saw that you had replied to me in this post and that is exactly what I was thinking.... Now that you mentioned that his friend killing him at camp seemed nearly impossible, I got another idea in my head that what if his friend killed him elsewhere, a few miles or more from present position, drives to present location and lets his dog out hoping it would run towards his position (some dogs seem to sense where their owner are, somewhat) and then called in the searchers. They would start from current location, perhaps find him at other location and assume that he had met up with the wrong people, animal, etc.
I do think the friend needs a little more checking into seeing as he was the last one to see him alive. I mean having no shoes and minimal clothing may suggest that his friend killed him as he was in his sleep or something and then moved the body or moved to a new location to call it in... Just my mind working out some .02



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 09:17 PM
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Two days allows for a lot to be done.

I don't see why his friend would spend two days before getting help. After one day he should have known a one man search wasn't going to work. This to me is a bit off.



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 09:32 PM
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a reply to: evc1shop

Accusations are being made here about a person no one
here knows the first thing about. I don't object to this at
all but his friend is also a firefighter and I'm sure the authorities
are smart enough to put this guy under microscope. If he is
suspect for any reason at all, I'm sure they will be all over it.

We'll see.....

But on the other hand I love ATS just for this reason alone.

Carry on you syber super sleuths.



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 09:34 PM
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a reply to: randyvs

I don't think it is accusations as much as it is 'here is a possibility'. At least what I have meant in my posts. Leave no stone unturned...



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 09:39 PM
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originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: evc1shop

Accusations are being made here about a person no one
here knows the first thing about. I don't object to this at
all but his friend is also a firefighter and I'm sure the authorities
are smart enough to put this guy under microscope. If he is
suspect for any reason at all, I'm sure they will be all over it.

We'll see.....

But on the other hand I love ATS just for this reason alone.

Carry on you syber super sleuths.

I don't think I accused him yet. I did lay out a theory but, as you stated, do not know enough about him to form a plausible motive that would allow room for an accusation. It is only right to consider all angles and see where the clues lead. There may be no foul play involved at all but the current information we have at our disposal doesn't exclude it.

With all respect to the missing man and his family, I enjoy a good puzzler while getting to the truth of things.



posted on Jun, 20 2014 @ 09:45 PM
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a reply to: roadgravel

You're right Gravel, accusations was to strong a word.
My bad.

I'm critical of the way they conduct these searches. If
they only use thier helicopters to drown out any calls
that this guy might be making. Then that would be tragic.
I often wonder why they don't employ high intensity hearing
devices in these cases? Bionic ears or something? My wife
just pointed out how they could be going right by a desperate
suffering human being. She put a lump in my throat.



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