Firefighter chases dog and both are missing 411?

DP.

Okay I saw my friend today who is very familiar with
Search & Rescue Dogs. I explained the story to her
& she could not believe how the dogs were behaving
& especially would not pick up the scent.

She asked me how many days before SAR started & etc.
She explained how they work. Let's say that they started
at the campsite, the dogs are cast out to one side,
like the right side...the dog will circle counter clock wise
all the way around, picks up the scent, then cast itself to
the left circling clock wise & will pick up the scent.

They do this once or twice to recheck themselves to make
sure they are correct, then the hunt is on. She said it's difficult
to find someone that is up in the air. I told her the missing man
wasn't airborne.

She was very surprised about the missing guys dog being so
frightened & how the SAR dogs were behaving as that is NOT
normal.

She also said Blood Hounds were extremely good in rescue
that they can track someone in a car. Strange isn't it.

Sorry that isn't much info but at least we know that the dogs
were exhibiting abnormal behavior & my friend was doing it
for years.

Cheers
Ektar

a reply to: Ektar
That actually was some very good info, thanks Ektar. I never knew that about the circling thing. It makes sense.

In many cases where the dogs won't track, it's when they immediately bring the dogs into the SAR effort, for example, when a small child goes missing in the cold or other hazardous conditions and time is therefore critical. There were a few cases where the person had been missing for a few days or longer, but something tells me that it's not the length of elapsed time that's causing the lack of tracking.

Another common factor in the Paulides cases is that the weather often turns foul immediately after a person goes missing, hampering the SAR efforts and possibly affecting the dogs' tracking abilities.

Don't ask me what kind of entity or force can change the weather at will (well, besides us with HAARP and such). Anyone have any idea why the "body snatcher" might care about hampering the search effort? Before you answer, remember that another common occurrence in these cases is the missing person is eventually found in an area close to where they were lost -- one that had been searched many times, or on top of a boulder or the middle of an island river, almost as if the perpetrator wanted the person or their body to be found.

"Nature of my game..." is still puzzling me, Randy.

originally posted by: VoidHawk
Marking so I dont lose the thread

Any recent news on this anyone?

Anymore info yet to come from the police?

VoidHawk, did you see the articles on the toxicology report, saying that Herdman had Ecstasy and alcohol in his system? It didn't say how much or how long it was there, so the results are inconclusive. Or maybe they're just not saying.

Chemicals within a human body tend to redistribute following death, making it increasingly difficult as time passes to determine the amounts and significance of drugs in a person’s body at the time of death, Harvey said.

As a result, when a drug such as ecstacy is discovered within the system of a decomposing body, it’s difficult to know how much the person had in their system when they died, or whether a person was intoxicated, Harvey said.

www.sgvtribune.com...

originally posted by: graceunderpressure

originally posted by: VoidHawk
Marking so I dont lose the thread

Any recent news on this anyone?

Anymore info yet to come from the police?

VoidHawk, did you see the articles on the toxicology report, saying that Herdman had Ecstasy and alcohol in his system? It didn't say how much or how long it was there, so the results are inconclusive. Or maybe they're just not saying.

Chemicals within a human body tend to redistribute following death, making it increasingly difficult as time passes to determine the amounts and significance of drugs in a person’s body at the time of death, Harvey said.

As a result, when a drug such as ecstacy is discovered within the system of a decomposing body, it’s difficult to know how much the person had in their system when they died, or whether a person was intoxicated, Harvey said.

www.sgvtribune.com...

Hi graceunderpressure.
Yes, I saw the reports of supposed drug use, though I'm very suspicious of it! None of the drugs listed cause a person to lose control or even hallucinate, certainly not in the quantities being reported. Also, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, was the other guy tested for drugs? because I think thats very important!

Ektar told us about the dogs running in circles before they start.
Something I observed with my own dog (who had an amazingly sensitive nose), was how he tracked! He'd run ahead about 25 meters and sniff the trail, then he'd run back past me about 25 meters, he might do that several times in quick succession , then he'd be off like a rocket!
The reason for running between the two points is to determine which direction his prey was going. If the prey had walked from left to right then obviously the scent on the left will be older than the scent on the right, and thats how he knew the direction.
Whenever I watched my dog doing this I was always in awe of his ability, sometimes he might only run 2 or 3 meters between two points to determine direction. If the scent trail was getting old he would need to run bigger distances between two points.
I suspect thats why Ektars friends dogs run in circles, by running in circles they cross the trail at two different points and it enables them to determine direction.

I am extremely suspicious of the fact that none of the dogs involved could pick up a scent! A dead body STINKS!!! For any dog (let alone a trained dog) a dead body should be as loud as a fog horn. A trained dog ought to be able to go straight to it.
I used to watch my dog pick up a scent even though he was down wind from it! Those trained dogs really ought to have found that body!
The fact they didn't find it tells me one of two things.
1. The body wasn't there when they looked for it.
2. They were never meant to find it!

Somewhere in the thread (way back) I heard mention of an illegal grow in the area. I cant help but wonder if that grow has anything to do with this case. Maybe these two found it and were chased off, but Herdman was caught and killed, while the other guy got away but was warned by police (who maybe involved in the grow) to shut up or else!
I really think something stinks!

a reply to: Ektar

I'm in agreement with Grace Ektar. I think that is pertinent
information. Especially the way the dogs check themselves
before lighting out.

a reply to: VoidHawk

The growers?
Those are the kind of explanations that
add up to absolutely nothing. Because they explain nothing
and fall to the wayside my fellow member. For instance,
that doesn't begin to explain the dogs behavior. Lack of footprints
etc. etc. No foul play! and on and on. We've come far beyond any
explanations of sorts in this thread amigo.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: VoidHawk

The growers?
Those are the kind of explanations that
add up to absolutely nothing. Because they explain nothing
and fall to the wayside my fellow member.

huh?

originally posted by: randyvs
For instance,
that doesn't begin to explain the dogs behavior.

Which dogs? The dog that was lost or the sniffer dogs?

originally posted by: randyvs
Lack of footprints
etc. etc.

Lack of footprints where exactly?

originally posted by: randyvs
No foul play! and on and on. We've come far beyond any
explanations of sorts in this thread amigo.

I disagree!
While I accept the idea of something paranormal/weird/strange is a part of this thread, I do not think it has explained anything! and certainly does not rule out foul play!

Please answer my two questions above so that I can understand better.

a reply to: VoidHawk

The cops themselves have ruled out foul play.
Period. You can't disagree.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: VoidHawk

The cops themselves have ruled out foul play.
Period. You can't disagree.

Oh come on dude!!! Thats laughable LOL

That just makes me even more suspicious!

a reply to: VoidHawk

Laughable? Dude ? Really? Perhaps we should laugh at the cops all
the time? Explain yourself please. How are the cops laughable?
If the cops are laughable for some reason, when thay declare no foul pay,
I want to know about it.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: VoidHawk

Laughable? Dude ? Really? Perhaps we should laugh at the cops all
the time? Explain yourself please. How are the cops laughable?
If the cops are laughable for some reason, when thay declare no foul pay,
I want to know about it.

It was your response I found laughable!
Why did you ignore my questions?

a reply to: VoidHawk

Voidhawk, the idea of illegal growers being involved in this (or any of the stranger cases, really) is pretty unlikely. And that's not me speaking from a desire for a mystery.
Logically, anyone growing illicit substances in a remote area is doing so to avoid attracting attention to themselves. They don't want to be discovered. It makes no sense for those same people, who are trying to avoid attention, to kidnap and/or kill a member of the public. In the National Parks. Where any case involving a missing person can bring hundreds of people combing every inch of every square mile for an indeterminate period of time. If it were a grower, in my opinion, Herdman would have been killed outright and his body dumped somewhere very, very far away from the woods he disappeared in, or left in an obvious place to be found and ruled accidental.

originally posted by: graceunderpressure
Another common factor in the Paulides cases is that the weather often turns foul immediately after a person goes missing, hampering the SAR efforts and possibly affecting the dogs' tracking abilities.
Don't ask me what kind of entity or force can change the weather at will (well, besides us with HAARP and such).

One problem I have with statements like this, Grace, is their implications are a touch outrageous for me. The causal link implied in assuming that whatever is taking people then goes on to manipulate the vast area of sky above the place of disappearance is, as far as I'm concerned, unlikely and unreliable. Aside from the mechanics of such an act, the power needed to do something like that wouldn't be worth the taking of one person. There are people everywhere, and it'd be easier to grab someone from somewhere they're less likely to be noticed, or to grab dozens or hundreds at a time.

Saying that however, when I was reading the first book I was discussing it with a friend who made a similar statement as you. "How can it change the weather?" When it occurred to me that it doesn't need to.
Many animals, and a majority of people, can sense when a change of weather is coming. Even humans can feel the increased pressure in the air, the thickening around us, hours before a huge thunderstorm. I believe that whatever is doing this isn't causing the weather to change, it is simply taking advantage of weather which is going to turn bad regardless.
Almost every single animal species on the planet will alter it's behaviour before a big storm. Fish might move to higher/lower water, birds will either take off somewhere nicer or hunker down. Even domestic animals might be less keen to get outside, or even act completely fearful. It is not impossible to believe that a species of animal, highly adapted to it's environment and as sensitive to a coming storm as any organism on this planet, is taking advantage of the coming weather to grab unsuspecting people.

a reply to: JackofBlades

Hi JackofBlades

You said

If it were a grower, in my opinion, Herdman would have been killed outright and his body dumped somewhere very, very far away from the woods he disappeared in

Not disappeared in, rather, far way from the illegal plants! Thrown from a plane might explain the lack of foot prints.

You said

or left in an obvious place to be found and ruled accidental.

Isn't that exactly whats happened?

We only have one mans word for where their camp was supposed to be. What if he's not telling the truth? What if the police are involved in the illegal grow? wouldn't be the first time!

I know something mysterious is more appealing, but his death is much more likely to be because of criminal activity.

originally posted by: JackofBlades
... "How can it change the weather?" When it occurred to me that it doesn't need to.
Many animals, and a majority of people, can sense when a change of weather is coming. Even humans can feel the increased pressure in the air, the thickening around us, hours before a huge thunderstorm. I believe that whatever is doing this isn't causing the weather to change, it is simply taking advantage of weather which is going to turn bad regardless.
Almost every single animal species on the planet will alter it's behaviour before a big storm. Fish might move to higher/lower water, birds will either take off somewhere nicer or hunker down. Even domestic animals might be less keen to get outside, or even act completely fearful. It is not impossible to believe that a species of animal, highly adapted to it's environment and as sensitive to a coming storm as any organism on this planet, is taking advantage of the coming weather to grab unsuspecting people.

Jack, I agree with the notion that something calling up a Nor'easter just to snatch a two-year-old is absurd. I've flip-flopped between the "change weather" and "leverage weather changes" hypotheses since I've been reading these books. Of all the circumstances, it's the hardest to explain -- at least from a human perspective.

If you've studied the Missing 411 disappearance clusters, you know that another oddity lies in two or more people of the same age, characteristics, etc. going missing from the same area, but separated by time -- sometimes even by decades. This might lead one to believe that the perpetrator is not only outside of certain physical bounds but also outside of known time constraints. If so, might they be able to "look back" and see that a big storm was coming up on a particular mountain just when a 70-year-old anthropologist with blue eyes, at the ideal height would be hiking ahead of the group? They probably even have an "app" for that.

I can't believe I just wrote that. I'm a technical writer by trade, with a typically pragmatic outlook, but the theories I find myself mulling over for this subject are really "out there." Time to go do something normal and walk the dog. If I don't return...

a reply to: VoidHawk

I know something mysterious is more appealing,

Not as much as it is more logical. Believe it or not.
And I didn't start this thread hoping for a big mystery!

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: VoidHawk

I know something mysterious is more appealing,

And I didn't start this thread hoping for a big mystery!

I never said you did, although you sure are pushing it that way when you say such things as

The cops themselves have ruled out foul play
Period. You can't disagree.

So, it cant be foul play because?
And why cant I disagree?

originally posted by: Ektar
She also said Blood Hounds were extremely good in rescue
that they can track someone in a car. Strange isn't it.

i know dogs are amazing animals with senses that we can't begin the fathom within the context of our own minds, but when i read that... i was just like, daaaaaaaamn. that's amazing. track someone in a car. that's mind blowing. anyway, that info just adds more to these cases were S&R animals can't/won't track. that one thing in itself is a huge red flag. and not something in my opinion that can be attributed to any "natural" phenomenon.

now since we're talking about the inclement weather changes that seem to occur right after these people go missing. ive always thought that it was never about the weather being manipulated to aid the "kidnapping" but, rather it's an example of either heightened senses at work or a far better and accurate knowledge of working weather systems and weather prediction. like a psychic meteorologist.

as for "foul play". this case in particular is hard because we're clearly not getting the full story from the other person who was there. and we aren't getting the full story from the MSM/police. the latter of which is to be expected anyway.

but the "foul play" remark could just as easily be inferred from any of the other hundreds upon hundreds of missing 411 style cases. however, i believe that if you are looking at this case in the context of the larger picture some kind of foul play is at work, but not at the hands of his friend. something else is at work here. i actually feel bad for all the people who have been out hiking with someone whose gone missing 411 style and then by default the finger gets pointed at them because there's no other "logical" conclusion to make except to say, well two people went out, one came back, one didn't. the one who came back must have had something to do with it.

a reply to: VoidHawk

So, it cant be foul play because?
And why cant I disagree?

I was just saying you can't disagree with trained professionals because
they're the authority on such matters. Of course you can disagree but
who can take you seriously if you do? The cops are there on scene.
But I'll give you this much. It's way out there for the cops to rule no
foul play and at the same time claim drugs were involved. So Taylor
Byars might of supplied drugs? But that's ok? WTF? Right? The only thing
that seems to fit is that something took this guy. And they thru drugs
in to cover it up. I've looked on facebook and none of the friends believe
any of that. And Byars is completely silent. Guilty or not he should be
defending himself. But it seems he's along for the ride.

And of course I hoped this guy would be found but I'll admit the thing that
made me start this thread? The landscape the search was set in seemed
impossible to get lost in from the beginning. To wide open and no thick
woods at all. I could also say that as much as you want to explain this logically?
There isn't any.

And believe it or not Void, that just bugs me to high heaven and is the only
reason I persist. So by all means come up with something that hasn't been
argued already and fits and makes sense. I'll buy it and sink this thread to
oblivion. Good luck. But growers that kill one and let the other guy tell the story?
Doesn't fit at all. Try another piece.

What we do have from " The authorities " is Mike died of "Blunt force trauma"
instead of "A fall" and no foul play was involved. How does that explain anything?
I haven't seen one pot plant or any indication that the cops are even looking in
such a direction. No pot burn, nothing. So you tell me, does the grower hypothesis
make the first lick of sense to you? Respectfully of course.

To be honest, nothing makes much sense. The more I think about this, the more confused I get. However, English isn't my first language, so I'm sorry if I see this incorrectly, but I've always thought of "foul play" as something that affects a situation in a way that's "wrong", be it in a criminal way or just... sort of moral way, I guess.

So, since I don't believe that Herdman randomly decided to climb a dangerous place given all the circumstances (such as having nothing on his feet, for example), I'd say that something happened there. Something really bad that caused his death. No idea what that something might be, but unless the guy didn't care about whether or not he lived or died, I'm okay with saying "foul play" of some kind happened there.

Now if "foul play" is a synonym for "murder", then... well. The whole thing still is way too mysterious for me to believe that nothing/nobody killed him.

Sorry if this post doesn't make much sense. I honestly don't know what to think about this.

a reply to: LukeDAP

A post that doesn't make sense? Show me a post here in
this whole thread that does make sense? Your post is right on time
and welcome indeed. The posts that have tried to make sense of this?
Have failed miserably.