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Firefighter chases dog and both are missing 411?

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posted on Jun, 30 2014 @ 10:00 PM
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a reply to: Brotherman





it sucks to be poor bro kind of have to dude but i did mean what i said in my last hope dudes fam is at least ok

Yeah I know you did. Pretty doubtful for now tho.
God bless 'em.

edit on Rpm63014v022014u14 by randyvs because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 1 2014 @ 12:11 AM
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a reply to: JackofBlades
Well - since we have no video-testimony of/from Byars...the only things we know for certain are:
1. Herdman & Byars were 'friends', experienced firemen, physically fit...and, Herdman was an avid outdoorsman with numerous hikes in the very location that 'the incident' took place.
2. They (Herdman, Byars and Duke) went camping in Los Padres...along Sespe Creek...
3. A few days after they had left for the hike...Byars exited the 'wilderness' into the arms of two fishermen - who, apparently directed him back to the vehicle he and Herdman had arrived in...
4. Search & Rescue efforts were launched almost immediately after the Sheriff's department heard Byars' tale.
5. Duke was spotted twice the following week still in the general vicinity of where the hikers had been hiking/camping...a good 5 or more days after the reported disappearance took place.
6. A couple/few days later, Duke returned to the location where they had exited the vehicle to start the adventure...unassisted (meaning - without the aid of fishermen).
7. Two weeks after Herdman is reported to have gone missing...his body was found 3/4 mile away, and 1,200' higher (in elevation) than the reported location of the campsite.

In answer to a couple of thoughts on - "maybe Herdman took off sometime in the night, and Byars didn't realize he was gone until he awoke the next morning" ...
How would Byars know that Herdman took off in only shorts & shirt (and that he was barefoot), unless he witnessed the exit? It's not likely that he had inventoried Herdman's backpack...and would know what was not missing...
(ETA: I am presuming that the body was found, shoe-&-sock-less, and dressed only in shorts & shirt...)

If we want to start with bare facts...the above seem to be almost all that (or, at least, a start on what) can be claimed as verifiable.


edit on 7/1/2014 by WanDash because: qualifiedly-speaking



posted on Jul, 1 2014 @ 12:38 AM
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a reply to: WanDash

the accounts i read said that they were setting up camp..../herdman was a surfer so he had really good balance (someone mentioned maybe he fell off the cliff) the body was too far out to have fallen off the cliff.

you made a good summery of the events.....it is really sad...his birthday was sunday..they were supposed to get back by fathers day ( he had a wife and daughter was around 5 years old.

he was wearing a black t shirt and green shorts....don't know what shade of green (people disappear wearing bright colors)

I know we were all hoping for a better outcome...
edit on 1-7-2014 by research100 because: (no reason given)

edit on 1-7-2014 by research100 because: correct spelling



posted on Jul, 1 2014 @ 12:52 AM
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originally posted by: research100
...the accounts i read said that they were setting up camp..../herdman was a surfer so he had really good balance (someone mentioned maybe he fell off the cliff) the body was too far out to have fallen off the cliff.

...you made a good summery of the events.....it is really sad...his birthday was sunday..they were supposed to get back by fathers day ( he had a wife and daughter was around 5 years old.

...he was wearing a black t shirt and green shorts....don't know what shade of green (people disappear wearing bright colors)

...I know we were all hoping for a better outcome...

Frustrated with the lack and jumble of information, I was simply trying to start a 'verifiable fact list'...that we could use to build upon...in the process of "eliminating the impossible" to see what's left..."however improbable".

I have read that they were:
a) Setting up camp, &/or
b) Had already set up camp, &/or
c) Were hiking along Sespe Creek
... ... ... ...when Duke ran off... ... ...
...I'm guessing that one of them is correct...but, then again...we would only be rehearsing what Byars purportedly told them...which...only he and Duke might be able to confirm...

I have appreciated your contributions to this thread...as well as this one.



posted on Jul, 1 2014 @ 08:27 AM
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you guys are right about the reporting of information on this missing persons. it does seem all of over the place in some regards. wouldn't surprise me if this confusion of events was intentional.



posted on Jul, 1 2014 @ 11:24 AM
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a reply to: CallmeRaskolnikov

And we could all be surprized by the purpose behind those intentions.
I'll admit that.



posted on Jul, 1 2014 @ 12:59 PM
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reports surfacing that he died from falling from a cliff according to the coroner. odd considering that had been ruled out i thought. that also involved climbing much much higher from the valley over. miles even.



posted on Jul, 1 2014 @ 01:21 PM
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do you have a link for that article? haven't seen any recent ones after the body was found.

when i first read the reply i was pissed off, thinking ok, maybe they just fudged the coroner report, considering like you said they ruled out a fall initially. maybe to make it tie up neatly they are saying he died from a fall. But, in reality that would make even less sense! so now he climbed like 2,000 ft or whatever (barefoot) and fell to the 1,200 foot local?

this whole situation reeks....
--------------------------------------
EDIT:

just found an article Mike Herdman Death Due To Blunt Force




The Arcadia firefighter who was missing for two weeks while camping in the Los Padres Forest died accidentally and due to blunt force trauma, Armando Chavez with the Ventura County Medical Examiner’s Office said Tuesday.


blunt force trauma. they didn't say a fall. probably just surmising fall i guess because that would be the most "logical"

blunt force could be the result of something else other than a fall. ugh....
edit on 1-7-2014 by CallmeRaskolnikov because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 1 2014 @ 01:46 PM
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originally posted by: CallmeRaskolnikov
...The Arcadia firefighter...died accidentally and due to blunt force trauma...

blunt force trauma. they didn't say a fall. probably just surmising fall i guess because that would be the most "logical"

blunt force could be the result of something else other than a fall. ugh....

Hope more information will be forthcoming...
...but, as you have suggested - how could they conclude "accidentally"?

Again - just getting/climbing to where the body was found is virtually unbelievable on so many counts... Much less, having climbed even higher and fallen... ?



posted on Jul, 1 2014 @ 02:21 PM
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a reply to: WanDash

here's the article mentioning blunt force trauma www.vcstar.com...

interesting snippit from the article:

His body was found Friday morning on the side of a steep canyon 1,200 feet higher in elevation than the campground where he disappeared. He was three-quarters of a mile by ground from the campsite, Dean said during a news conference.

someone remarked in the comments:


GreenTeaParty58 Minutes Ago
Very tragic and my sincerest sympathies to all involved. 1200 ft elevation gain in 3/4 mile is an INSANE climb without shoes. If anybody has done Chumash Trail/Mugu Peak (flag hike) that is roughly the same incline/distance for comparison. Not something I imagine most people could do even with shoes in the dark. He was definitely a serious hiker.

www.latimes.com...

The body of the 36-year-old husband and father was found Friday morning at the foot of a cliff less than a mile from the campsite where he had disappeared from June 13.

Though the listed date of death was when his body was discovered, it appeared Herdman had been dead for at least a few days and his injuries were consistent with a significant fall, said Chief Deputy Medical Examiner Armando Chavez.



edit on 1-7-2014 by research100 because: added paragraph


toxicoligy results can take up to 6 months
edit on 1-7-2014 by research100 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 1 2014 @ 02:25 PM
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a reply to: research100 someone in this thread asked if a fund was set up for the family

Donations to the fund can be made online at www.FireFamilyFoundation.org by entering Herdman's name or sending a check payable to the Fire Family Foundation, 815 Colorado Blvd., Los Angeles CA 90041, with a notion Herdman Tribute Foundation.



posted on Jul, 1 2014 @ 02:42 PM
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a reply to: research100

hmmmm, interesting indeed. i have no doubt that the climb is unlikely to have been done by herdman without any footwear or socks or anything. it's one thing to walk around barefoot on grass or what have you. but, literally mountain climbing....just not buying it. not after all the other 411 cases with people always being found higher in elevation in spots that would be ridiculous to get to.

the whole reason they didn't even look in that spot was because they ruled it out for being far too unlikely that he would have made a climb that far, with that grade, barefoot, in the night! lol i mean for christ's sake!

all i want is a fu*king picture or some information on the bottom of his feet. why, haven't they commented on that? if his feet were severely messed up, then okay, maybe he did attempt the climb. but, they aren't saying that. they are saying, most likely a fall...because how the hell else would he have died "naturally" or "accidentally" from blunt force trauma if he didn't die from a fall. i think if his feet reflected the distance traversed without footwear they would have mentioned that along with coroner comment about blunt force.

and 6 months for a tox report on a corpse? WTF? that seems an inordinate amount of time just for a tox report. this sh!t is starting to really make me angry. i need to take a breath....
edit on 1-7-2014 by CallmeRaskolnikov because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 1 2014 @ 02:50 PM
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a reply to: research100
Thanks research100,
Looking for other news, I found this, and must say...the incessant muddling is maddening...

The LATimes says...

...Herdman...died after falling from a cliff...,

...and attributes that fact to the Ventura County medical examiner's office...
Furthermore -

...it appeared Herdman had been dead for at least a few days and his injuries were consistent with a significant fall...

And...

...While flying near the 200-foot sheer rock face, Williams (Ken Williams, Ventura County sheriff's helicopter pilot) spotted something that was not meant to be there... The body was attired in board shorts and a black T-shirt and was barefoot...

And - for a little more confuscation...

...midway through a planned 4-day backpacking trek...Herdman's dog, Duke, ran off in the night... Herdman...gave chase... Byars tried to find Herdman through the night and the next day...


Okay - the 200' sheer rock face is news to me...

Well - will get back to this after considering it a bit further.

ETA: Okay - you beat me to it... Sorry, but I'm just gonna leave it as posted because of the couple-other items noted...and I don't have time at the moment to revise it to look near as pretty as it already is...

edit on 7/1/2014 by WanDash because: beat me to it



posted on Jul, 1 2014 @ 03:08 PM
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a reply to: CallmeRaskolnikov

But this is just the normal information given to reporters for the
media. I don't expect the kind of detail we all would like to have.
The rest will be information that will take some investigative
reporting, I would surmise.



posted on Jul, 1 2014 @ 03:32 PM
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I think there is something buried or hidden within feet of where the guy found the fisherman. They almost came upon him hiding something. Ok enough with my feelings.
It seems like the investigators will just play wait and see now and hope that if anyfoul play was involved then the guilty does not deal with death as good as intended.



posted on Jul, 1 2014 @ 03:38 PM
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a reply to: WanDash

I believe (and this is all just IMO) the reason the coroner ruled it an accidental death is because THERE'S NO WAY ANYONE SHOULD BE UP THERE! Herdman shouldn't have been there. His presence there, and any theory stating he climbed it to get a better look around (in the middle of the night) or got lost and figured, "Hey, maybe my camp was up on top of this mountain we never climbed." There's no reason anyone should be up there, so the likelihood of someone just encountering Herdman up there and throwing him up there is infinitesimal.
Though, there is obviously more of a chance he was chased up there than encountered someone up there. The only reason I can believe he logically scaled a mountain barefoot and with no food or gear, is because he was terrified and fleeing something.

The logic of the authorities has flown, and we are being fed tidbits of data. Just enough to silence us, not enough to give us a picture.
Although, now the coroner has ruled Herdman died a few days before his corpse was discovered, I guess this totally rules Byars out?

a reply to: CallmeRaskolnikov

Raskol, you and I want the same thing. I want to know about his feet. I also want to know why it was necessary to identify the body using his teeth, when I assume all the SAR teams had pictures of him. I also want to know exactly what the "injuries" which were consistent with a fall were. If I'd badly lacerated my arm knife juggling, it doesn't mean I've been reaching into a lawnmower (if you take my meaning).
Also, I think toxicology reports take a while for the simple fact that there are so many poisons to test, and unless the examiner knows specifically what to look for they have to test for each individual one.



posted on Jul, 1 2014 @ 03:48 PM
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Double post, but just discovered [url=http://www.dailynews.com/general-news/20140701/missing-arcadia-firefighter-mike-herdman-died-instantly-in-a-cliff-side-fall-coroner-says]this.[/u rl]


Missing Arcadia Firefighter Mike Herdman died instantly after falling from a cliff in the Sespe Wilderness of the Los Padres National Forest, according to the Ventura County Medical Examiner’s Office. “The injuries were significant enough that when the fall occurred it caused immediate death,” said Armando Chavez, chief deputy medical examiner.


So, if this source is accurate not only did he definitely fall from a cliff or mountain (strange they can't decide. Surely they'd just look up above him?) but the fall itself is what killed him. And these injuries were so severe he died instantly...

Out of curiosity, is anyone in here from Ventura County? Or knows anyone who is? I'd be very interested in seeing exactly what the Examinder had to say.
And seeing as this is apparently an accident, there's no investigation or crime. Therefore no reason to withhold the information should a FOIA be sent to them.



posted on Jul, 1 2014 @ 04:02 PM
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originally posted by: JackofBlades
...The only reason I can believe he logically scaled a mountain barefoot and with no food or gear, is because he was terrified and fleeing something. ...


Precisely my take.
No reason to attempt to scale that mountain, as unprepared as he was...unless you think that's you're best bet of getting away from something.
Even then... ...
Will continue to mull this over.



posted on Jul, 1 2014 @ 04:22 PM
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a reply to: WanDash




Will continue to mull this over.


Please do and you guys are all making this thread, very interesting
to say the least. Just remember the reason Dean ruled out a fall, is
because of the location of the body, not being near enough to a
cliff face. And I know I keep going after the most mysterious
aspects involved but, if Mike was thrown out away from the cliff face
or even dropped from the air? Then plausible deniability may be
favored by the coroner. Enabling him to simply say a fall, when it's not
even realistically possible. And again when Dean was in the press
conference this would account for his utter bewilderment.



posted on Jul, 1 2014 @ 04:26 PM
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a reply to: JackofBlades

For those wanting to know why dental records were used for identification and wanting to "see" the condition of his feet: Have you ever seen a body that has been exposed to the elements for a few days in this type of terrain? The condition of his feet, indeed, his entire body, was that it was probably just bones by this point in time. It takes the natural world very little time to do away with the tissues. For instance, I came upon a fresh dead opossum in my yard on Sunday. When I checked on it today, it was mere bones with just bits of fur here and there---in two days.
I don't know the laws in California but in our state dental records must be used if the body has lost enough tissue to not be recognizable. This body, having been exposed to the elements for several days was likely just bones and clothing. In our state, just clothing is not enough to make a positive identification. I learned this when a relative of mine died in a fiery car crash. Even though there were some scraps of fabric that survived the fire and were from the dress she was wearing the medical examiner required that her dental records be produced before a positive identification could be established.



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