Firefighter chases dog and both are missing 411?

a reply to: CallmeRaskolnikov

It's not hard to understand……I suggest you watch shows like ID i.e. Investigation Discovery…..it's a show that deals soley with REAL LIFE murders and crime. People murder for all types of reason and under all sorts of circumstances. That was my point. It's not just the motive of a homosexual trist……….maybe Herdman's friend was jealous of him on the job, or wanted his job, or needed a promotion. Or maybe Bryars was infatuated with his wife and was having or wanted to have an affair. Who knows! But those types of stories happen all the time here on planet earth. Like I said, I'm not a disbeliever in aliens or bigfoot. But not every missing person out in the wilderness is some sort of alien being or unknown/unseen monster.

a reply to: GreenMtnBoys

good point, but i think everybody here can agree that not every missing persons case in the national parks is outside of the realm of rational explanation. I'm also not saying that this case in particular belongs in the missing 411 database. However, brushing aside the high number of mysterious disappearances in our national forests because some disappearances are human murdering humans is irresponsible. these missing 411 cases are "REAL LIFE" as well. these are victims dying in horrid and bizarre circumstances. we should demand more information from the federal government and work to establish justice for these people. its criminal that major media outlets do not pick up this story and provide warning for people visiting national parks to take certain precautions to avoid catastrophe.

Authorities have been hoping the dog, Duke, can lead them to Herdman, but despite multiple sightings of the German shorthair mix, they had not been able to catch the dog. so it looks like the dog is a mix breed, or a mutt. so that makes it even harder to pin down the dogs traits as it may contain traits from several types of breeds.

a reply to: CallmeRaskolnikov

It is starting to look like it might be part Weinheimer and part Vizsla and who knows what else...........but as I posted before the Weinheimer is notorious for being unresponsive to commands and so is the Vizsla.
I still think it is mostly Weinheimer which is a German short haired dog, from the pic I would bet that it is 80% of that breed and it only takes one percent tossed in to make it a mutt.
My point is why was that dog not leashed?
And why bring a dog like that into the back country where it is going to smell more scents than my dirty socks and possibly compete with?

I am willing to assume that with a hyper dog like that it was never off its leash, can you imagine chasing a dog that needs 45 minutes a day just running flat out? And all the time trying to hike 15 miles into a park?

This is not making sense, I feel the dog is the sand in the gears.
To those posting about the dog leading them to the location of the missing hiker, think about this.........those dogs or a mix of those dogs are not.....repeat not trackers....

Neither is a poodle, or a jack Russel or take your pick.

Its either blood hounds or nothing...

All speculation but IMHO that dog was never off a tether, nor did it break free.

Fantastic thread still and thanks to the newer additions to it we have more information to decipher.

Regards, Iwinder

My point is why was that dog not leashed?
And why bring a dog like that into the back country where it is going to smell more scents than my dirty socks and possibly compete with?

Lwinder, I understand what you're saying but we have a 100-lb. muttly dog that we take to the Sierra mountains. It's his vacation, too, so we let him run and cavort ahead of us when we hike an uninhabited trail. If the trail has other hikers, we leash him out of courtesy. When running loose, he sniffs and rambles and digs but he always comes back. When he's out of our sight for more than a few minutes, we whistle and he returns, probably because he knows we have the hot dogs.

When we're in the campsite, we put him on a long leash so he doesn't go after our neighbors' food or pets. According to several news articles, Herdman and his companion were still setting up camp when the dog ran off, so the dog was probably just hanging around with them.

I've thought about this scenario. The only thing that would make we go running from my campsite after Muttly without stopping to slip on my shoes would be a yelping sound that made me think he was in immediate peril. Then again, I never hang around a campsite with my shoes off. There are always rocks, pine cones, etc. around, not to mention that it's dirty. Why was Herdman setting up a campsite with his shoes off?

When running loose, he sniffs and rambles and digs but he always comes back. When he's out of our sight for more than a few minutes, we whistle and he returns, probably because he knows we have the hot dogs.

a reply to: graceunderpressure
Excellent post and thanks for the input on the dogs in National parks, The thing is hyper breeds like the ones I posted above will not come when called.

Your Mutt as you called him sounds very well trained, these dogs are not I repeat Not trainable to do anything above eating and running.
The two Weinheimers that were across the road from us were called Betty and Wilma......that is all we heard from next door for years was them screaming their names.

They eventually put them on "calm down pills" but it did not seem to help as far as we saw firsthand.

Anyways I still believe the dog is the problem, especially after watching the video of the terrain.
I agree with you on the barefoot thing, roots rocks pine-cones rattlers thorns, and so on......suspicious things for sure.

Regards, Iwinder

a reply to: graceunderpressure


someone posted that his shoes were wet and his friend offered him his extra pair....don't know which article that came from and I have read many about this case..

a reply to: seahawkshos040

First off I never said many cases of missing people in our forests are humans murder humans. That is one probable and likely explanation in many cases. Look I agree there might be some very mysterious unexplainable things going on in our national parks and forests and wilderness areas. Bigfoot, aliens whatever. However, it gets old to see everyone jump at the bit thinking it's bigfoot or aliens. Come on! David Paulides research is based on his theory and putting the dots together. Is his work convincing and do I believe much of it. You bet!!! But there are also many many holes in a lot of his stories. He leaves out the details in many cases. My previous post goes over just a few. We live on a very dangerous planet and even to this day there are many many natural occurrences that are unexplained and don't fit into the bigfoot/aliens/boogyman/CIA did it category. People die in the wilderness never to be found again. That's how it goes. There is nothing strange about this case as its being reported. Nothing nearly as strange as Paulides most convincing cases. Nothing at all. We don't even have all the facts. Many of Paulides cases don't have all the facts.

I'm not sure what you are trying to argue here. The friend could have easily killed this guy and made the whole story up. Herdman could have fallen into a hole covered up by brush never to be found again. I'd like to hear your arguments as to why you'd think whatever happened is somehow related to aliens or bigfoot or what have you? Ventura county is not even a big hot spot for disappearances or bigfoot sightings let alone UFO/ET activity. How many people go missing in Los Padres national forest every year? How many are never to be found again?

a reply to: GreenMtnBoys

ha, i think you must be guilty of skimming over my post. in fact the second sentence i said "I'm not saying this case belongs in the missing 411 database." And where on earth are you getting bigfoot/UFO activity from my post? I'm not even sure i believe in either of those. My point was that many cases are not just people killing people in the forest nor are they cases of merely getting lost. many are more mysterious than that. and indeed, this case might turn out to be a totally normal circumstance. but, many of the elements of this story are found in the missing 411 series. thats my point.

I met david paulides once at a presentation and asked him in person what he thinks is happening regarding 411. To paraphrase his response: I don't know by who or what, but I believe these people are being abducted.

As stated, before - I don't want to point an accusatory finger at anyone without due reason, nor cast suspicion on an innocent person.
But, there are tons of question fostered by the hodge-podge of details and cross-mingling details and lack of details...that has placed one question in my mind...

We've been told that Byars decided to hike out and get help, after a failed effort had been invested into locating his buddy & Duke.
We've been told that the 'hike out' took two days.
Byars was supposedly not an experienced outdoorsman, or...he was not experienced in this particular forest.

Did he hike for a full/solid 2 days...out?
Meaning - did he continue hiking through the darkness...or...did he stop to rest and make a camp one night...or...?
I have not seen/read 'where' he was found by the two fishermen...

That information might help in answering this question.

I know the reports say he got lost/turned-around on his hike-out...

As has been stated in some of the more recent comments... The range of situations that would inspire anyone to walk/run(?) away from the camp, barefoot & ill-prepared for anything more than a bathroom break or a brief look-see...are few.

In, at least, one account of the story - it was night - the camp had been set up - Herdman left the camp to look for Duke, and Byars didn't actually start looking for them until the following morning.

I can understand Herdman not accepting the offer of dry shoes...if he didn't expect/intend to go very far...

We probably cannot rely on the possibility that he saw Duke in a bad situation (fallen into a crevice, being attacked by a larger predator, etc...) since no such injuries were reported to be evident on Duke when he was found a week or so later.

On these bases (among others), unless we're dealing with some 'unexplainable' situations as described by Paulides, the facts don't seem to be forming a consistent/believable tale.

david paulides with a new post on his website regarding this case:
www.canammissing.com...

a reply to: seahawkshos040
Thanks seahawkshos040
They're linking to another article/post...regarding the "Devil" aspect of the Sespe' area of Los Padres.
This is the article (from 2011) they are pointing to...
A lot of good information... Helps anyone wanting to look another layer or two into this...mysterious matter.
I have appreciated your contributions to this thread.

I cant believe they're scaling back so soon, it's only been 11 days since he went missing and 9 days of search.

Don't ever get lost in the wilderness, after a little more than a week of searching they won't really be looking for you anymore.

originally posted by: seahawkshos040
I met david paulides once at a presentation and asked him in person what he thinks is happening regarding 411. To paraphrase his response: I don't know by who or what, but I believe these people are being abducted.

awesome! i think that is the important thing to remember. the who or what is something we can't say definitively. but, i would certainly agree that something is abducting people in our national parks and our national parks system knows more then they let on. which, makes sense because they want to keep the visitor numbers up and don't want people to feel unsafe in our parks. however, i think just the basic fact that our national parks system doesn't even keep a record of missing persons is very bizarre. i mean, in what other federal agency would that be acceptable? hundreds upon hundreds of missing persons and you don't so much as write their name and date of disappearance on a piece of paper? or what's even better is how the FBI will sometimes assign an agent to watch over certain active disappearances. "just to take notes". i'm sure they have been profiling these types of cases for a while now. and what's even more alarming is Paulide's mentions the most recent agent to have that job committed suicide after 15-20 years of watching over these types of missing persons cases. now, what does that say?

Iwinder

i know what you're saying about the Weinheimer and Vizsla breeds. They are certainly high energy. And the weinheimer is especially neurotic and anxious. but, again it is a mutt so it's really hard to accurately say what the specific personality traits of his dog were. we can only really guess. but, i would surmise that this dog of his was no stranger to going out into the woods with him and being off leash. 99% of the time the dog would probably be reliable and obedient. but, all it would take is for one kind of trigger to snap the dog into a flight response. i remember i was house sitting an Australian shepherd for a couple. the dog was very intelligent and great off leash. i could trust that dog not to bolt. but, the dog did have a trigger response whenever it heard the cracking sound of a baseball bat hitting a baseball. once i was walking it off leash, it heard that sound from a long ways away and the dog bolted. luckily i was able to chase it down and literally leap with all i had in me and catch it. the dog wasn't trying to be disobedient. it was just frightened beyond belief, uncontrollably so.

so i would imagine something along those lines happened while they were setting up camp. either the dog caught site or scent of something and it spooked the f*ck out of it, causing it to bolt. and from that point on we don't know what happened. but, i would guess that herdman was abducted during the pursuit of his dog while all his attention was focused on catching his pet.

the longer this goes without his body turning up, the weirder it feels.

originally posted by: CallmeRaskolnikov

awesome! i think that is the important thing to remember. the who or what is something we can't say definitively. but, i would certainly agree that something is abducting people in our national parks and our national parks system knows more then they let on.

I have to disagree, Rasko. There is not something abducting people from the parks, there is someone. Animals do not abduct. They kill and eat, or wound to scare away. In order to purposefully abduct someone the abductor must have intelligence. Therefore, someone.
I will not say Bigfoot or aliens. Nor will I entertain the belief it's fairies or gnomes or "little people." I think it more likely that the parks, and most likely the caves, are home to a population of "wild men" who for whatever reason have abandoned or rejected society. Such a group would be hard to track in such rugged terrain, especially if they are intimately familiar with it, and the existence of such groups would certainly be something the Park service would want to hide. Can you see families wanting to go camping if they knew there were a group of potentially hostile people hiding behind bushes and watching them?

however, i think just the basic fact that our national parks system doesn't even keep a record of missing persons is very bizarre. i mean, in what other federal agency would that be acceptable?

Again we disagree! It's not bizarre. It's downright negligent. There is no other branch of government, in any country, that would be able to get away with such poor practices as not keeping a basic list of missing people. The fact the lists aren't being kept is almost certainly to prevent dots being connected, and to keep the billions of dollars of revenue flowing.
The FBI being present is dubious. They get involved if there's sign of crime. If there's no sign of crime, there's no reason for them to be there, monitoring the case or otherwise.

As for his friend being a murderer...

As stated in numerous articles, the police were satisfied he had not been involved in any capacity beyond seeing his friend bolt. He's not been taken into custody, he's not been accused or charged. He has been questioned, and the police have been satisfied his story is truthful. Likewise, no evidence has been located which would indicate he had performed any act of violence on Herdman.
Now, I'm not naive enough to say this absolves him. Without a doubt, I believe he needs to be questioned intimately and, more importantly, away from the Park. And the Park service. Saying that, however, I do not believe we need to make such unfounded claims of marital infidelity, homosexual lovers tiff or any other baseless statements. Chances are this is just a guy who's shocked, grief stricken and confused about the whole ordeal.

But saying all of that, I would still be interested to see how the dog reacted to him...

a reply to: JackofBlades

i dont think we actually disagree that much. i completely understand your arguments. i wasn't trying to imply that he was taken by an animal, i don't think that is the case at all. i think if that were the case this whole thing would have been solved already and it would be fairly obvious that it was animal related.

the wild men theory is something i would entertain. but, i'm not sure if it would apply to the majority of the missing 411 cases. just because tracking a stinky wild or feral human should be a fairly easy thing for a specialized tracking animal to do. but, S&R tracking animals often refuse to track in these cases. now, i do believe that there are wild men living off the grid out there. but, i don't think there would be any significant population of them as that would defeat the purposes of leaving society to begin with. i think there's just some number of strays out there. but, i dont know if there would be enough to account for all the different clusters Paulide's has mapped out and all the missing persons that have been listed in the 411 books since early 1900. but, who knows. i can't act like i know, because i don't so its impossible to be definitive on this. after reading those books all of this just doesn't feel right.

the friend should just be given a poly so we can get that crossed off the list. but, there must be a reason why after all this time he still hasn't been even considered a suspect. though it is odd that he's not even helping with the search at this point. maybe he saw something out there too.

at this point in this case, i'm just waiting for the body to turn up. which sucks, but, i think it's too late for him. and at least if a body turns up we might learn a bit more about what happened here. we literally just have to wait and see what happens from here on out.

Ok let me just give my input here and a note right away as well:

I did not read any of Paulide's books simply because they are not available in Europe. Not even sure whether he would even SHIP to Europe (his website says no however then lists a shipping charge of $33). So or so, book(s) $25 and $33 s/h is too much for me. His books are ALSO not available in ebook format. I have last read a "real book" like decades ago and when I read something it's on my Kindle, which I love. I am sure that Paulides doesn't release his books in electronic format simply because he is afraid that his books are getting pirated. While, on the one hand I understand this, on the other it puts him in a somewhat weird light in terms of his credibility. (Along with the fact he is appearing on shows like C2C...)

I am ALSO aware that his books basically got raving reviews and to be honest have not seen anything negative about them, so I can be totally off with my opinion and say that his books/theories are fantastic etc...but as said since I didn't read them I cannot say anything about that.

* Someone mentioned something like to give this case to Paulides...makes me wonder why? Are THEY actually involved in trying to find those people? It is my understanding he is a book author and I would not know how "giving the case to Paulides" would in any way help anyone....except the author making money with the books

* I would also be VERY interested to know whether the reported number of people missing is in any way "abnormal" as to indicate something "odd" in the first place. Fact: People DO go missing in the wilderness, parks etc. This is not something new. As THIS case shows, go put some city dwellers out there barefoot and with shorts, in a rattle-snake infested area.

People from urban areas may go "in the wilderness" to hike and to camp but have no idea about the dangers there. So yes, people have accidents, people do get missing and so forth

My question..simply...is the number of people missing in the larger national parks in any way "extraordinary" or simply a "normal" statistic of people getting lost in the parks over the years which certainly happens?

(Here worthy to mention that Paulides, as far as I know, mentions "clusters" of appearances which I see as silly because OF COURSE in Yosemite National Park or the Great Lakes there are MORE people missing as compared to the backwoods of Tennessee. Simply because those are areas where a lot of people go to.)

How do I know that Paulide's books are based on real facts and not so much on anecdotal accounts? Some critics (very few) said he leaves out facts. It now seems he is pointing out how many of those areas where people got missing have "Devil" in the name. But to be honest, it would take a lot to convince me that we're NOT just dealing with an author who compiles a lot of cases in a book and then leaves anything open to entirely "out-there" speculation or artificially "mystifies" the cases without a real base to stand on.

a reply to: NoRulesAllowed
"I am sure that Paulides doesn't release his books in electronic format simply because he is afraid that his books are getting pirated. While, on the one hand I understand this, on the other it puts him in a somewhat weird light in terms of his credibility. (Along with the fact he is appearing on shows like C2C...)"

There are other reasons why he might publish the books in hardcopy, one of which might be that his demographic is still more likely to read them in that format. Unless you’ve asked him, I wouldn’t make such assumptions. And saying that this choice affects anyone’s credibility just because it’s not your preferred medium is rather ludicrous.

"* Someone mentioned something like to give this case to Paulides...makes me wonder why? Are THEY actually involved in trying to find those people? It is my understanding he is a book author and I would not know how "giving the case to Paulides" would in any way help anyone....except the author making money with the books"

Answer: Paulides is a former police officer who is well-versed in missing persons cases. He and his team currently research cases that meet specific criteria. How he got into this project is another story. Anyway, they find some cases on their own and others are “given” to them by families, etc. They follow a strict rule never to contact a “missing” person to avoid victimizing anyone. Where it would help to give the case to Paulides (if he didn’t already have the Herdman case, which he does) would be to add another case to the growing database and ultimately help solve the mystery of what is happening to all the missing people.

"* I would also be VERY interested to know whether the reported number of people missing is in any way "abnormal" as to indicate something "odd" in the first place. Fact: People DO go missing in the wilderness, parks etc. This is not something new. As THIS case shows, go put some city dwellers out there barefoot and with shorts, in a rattle-snake infested area."

Answer: Sorry, but you need to read the books to fully understand this one. As I said, the people meet a set of strange criteria. In addition, they are not typical missing persons’ cases.

"My question..simply...is the number of people missing in the larger national parks in any way "extraordinary" or simply a "normal" statistic of people getting lost in the parks over the years which certainly happens?"

Answer: If you read the books, you’d know that 1) we don’t know the number of missing people in the National Parks because they refuse to track and/or put forth that information and 2) The number of cases documented by Paulides that meets the team’s criteria seems highly unusual.

"(Here worthy to mention that Paulides, as far as I know, mentions "clusters" of appearances which I see as silly because OF COURSE in Yosemite National Park or the Great Lakes there are MORE people missing as compared to the backwoods of Tennessee. Simply because those are areas where a lot of people go to.)"

Check your facts. Following are the annual revenues generated for surrounding towns by some of the most-visited US National Parks.

Great Smoky Mountains (aka “backwoods of Tennessee”): $818M
Grand Canyon: $415M
Yosemite: $354M
Yellowstone: $334M
Blue Ridge Parkway $229M

As you can see, Yosemite doesn't top the list -- nowhere near it. By the way, these figures came from David Paulides’ fourth book, “The Devil is in the Details.”

"How do I know that Paulide's books are based on real facts and not so much on anecdotal accounts? Some critics (very few) said he leaves out facts. It now seems he is pointing out how many of those areas where people got missing have "Devil" in the name. But to be honest, it would take a lot to convince me that we're NOT just dealing with an author who compiles a lot of cases in a book and then leaves anything open to entirely "out-there" speculation or artificially "mystifies" the cases without a real base to stand on."

Answer: Having heard the interviews and having read 3 of the 4 books (reading the 4th one now), I think I am as qualified as anyone to speak to their contents. The truth is that Paulides puts forth fact-based cases that meet certain criteria. He doesn't speculate on the cause of the disappearances, and apparently that drives some people buggo because they want to be spoon-fed an answer. Does he list every fact for every case? Probably not. When you think about it, that would be impractical.

a reply to: NoRulesAllowed


if you can't get his books watch several you tube interviews with him...he mentions cases in them and the oddities, small children found with clothes off whose parents swear the child doesn't know how to dress or undress themselves

small child found several miles away outside of a property surrounded by barbed wire

small child found on a rock surrounded by a swampy area waist deep to an adult in the middle of bum f&*^ nowhere...the child is dry

people (children adults)found have no memory of what happened

bodies or minute remains are found under unusual circumstances

people found in exact spot that was searched many times

search dogs refuse to track

^ few examples of disappearances with unusual circumstances

a reply to: NoRulesAllowed
I believe the intrigue (or, a significant part of the intrigue) of Paulides' collection is more in line with "commonalities" that seem a little too uniquely coincidental to be passed off as - "oh, just another goofball that got lost in the woods".
I followed Paulides AMA for a while, and was fascinated at his evenness and professionalism.

Aside from that - thanks for your thoughts on this matter.