Question for ATSers- Do you love unconditionally? Should you?

a reply to: FlyersFan
I think 'unconditional love' is a misconstrued ideal.

The notion that one can act in the best interest of another that is not their ward/responsibility (such as a minor child) is, imo, a foolish presumption.

The best we can do, is be straight and consistent.
We can 'pretend' to have these gloriously idealistic traits...and hope that means that we're evolving to a higher state of awareness...but...it's still pretense.

I would rather know You...than who you think I'll be impressed with.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: BlueMule
a reply to: AfterInfinity

If you try to abuse me or offend me, I may or may not kick the crap out of you, depending on certain variables. Either way, I will continue to love myself and you.

'Love, and do as you will' -St Augustine

That's fine, but your love still has conditions attached. When you write "if *insert action of person you love*, then *insert appropriate response*" then you have a condition. Therefore it is conditional love. If...then statements are also known as conditional statements by the way.

No, my actions have conditions attached. If you abuse me, my actions will depend on certain variables.

Either way, I will love you and forgive you for your abuse. That doesn't mean that I won't kick your ass.

Unconditional love has nothing to do with what you do to me or how I respond to you. It has to do with what you ARE, ontologically speaking.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

The difference is that some ancient cultures actually went so far as to have entirely different words for each experience rather than simply under the easily misunderstood banner of "love."

I think people use parental love as an example, because while it has conditions, the outward appearance and subsequent actions can be representative of one who also practices unconditional love. That said, if one says they have it towards their children but do not practice it with anyone else, then, well.. that wouldnt be unconditional, now would it? The actions of discipline, teaching, learning, perseverance, and many others though ARE represented well in this relationship. Just not the unconditional part.

That said, many are also under the assumption that acting from a place of unconditional love means simply taking abuse, never calling someone out on their behavior, etc. That is just as equally erroneous as attempting to shoehorn unconditional love into conditions. Im not really even sure what experience this is referring to, as it sounds much more like apathy to me.

originally posted by: BlueMule

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: BlueMule
a reply to: AfterInfinity

If you try to abuse me or offend me, I may or may not kick the crap out of you, depending on certain variables. Either way, I will continue to love myself and you.

'Love, and do as you will' -St Augustine

That's fine, but your love still has conditions attached. When you write "if *insert action of person you love*, then *insert appropriate response*" then you have a condition. Therefore it is conditional love. If...then statements are also known as conditional statements by the way.

No, my actions have conditions attached. If you abuse me, my actions will depend on certain variables.

Either way, I will love you and forgive you for your abuse. That doesn't mean that I won't kick your ass.

Unconditional love has nothing to do with what you do to me or how I respond to you. It has to do with what you ARE.

Sorry bud but violence no matter how small isn't an act of love, especially the unconditional kind. Like I said, those actions are fine and may even be justified, but to assume that you don't have conditions attached to your love when you clearly just said "if this, then I'll do that" says you are wrong.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: BlueMule

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: BlueMule
a reply to: AfterInfinity

If you try to abuse me or offend me, I may or may not kick the crap out of you, depending on certain variables. Either way, I will continue to love myself and you.

'Love, and do as you will' -St Augustine

That's fine, but your love still has conditions attached. When you write "if *insert action of person you love*, then *insert appropriate response*" then you have a condition. Therefore it is conditional love. If...then statements are also known as conditional statements by the way.

No, my actions have conditions attached. If you abuse me, my actions will depend on certain variables.

Either way, I will love you and forgive you for your abuse. That doesn't mean that I won't kick your ass.

Unconditional love has nothing to do with what you do to me or how I respond to you. It has to do with what you ARE.

Sorry bud but violence no matter how small isn't an act of love, especially the unconditional kind.

Then I guess your love is conditional on whether our values are the same, eh?

If you push my buttons in just the right way, I will beat you up. I'm human. I love humans for being human.

I will forgive myself and love myself, and you, after making you eat dirt.

Looks like you can't say the same. But I love you anyway.

originally posted by: Serdgiam
That said, many are also under the assumption that acting from a place of unconditional love means simply taking abuse, never calling someone out on their behavior, etc. That is just as equally erroneous as attempting to shoehorn unconditional love into conditions. Im not really even sure what experience this is referring to, as it sounds much more like apathy to me.

Why do you say that? Do you not know what the meaning of the word unconditional is? Calling someone out on their behavior is being judgmental, that isn't unconditional love.

a reply to: BlueMule

You are misreading me. I never said I wouldn't love you or that you are flawed or anything. I think people are getting the wrong idea of what I am getting at. IT IS PERFECTLY OK TO LOVE SOMEONE CONDITIONALLY. In fact it is completely human, to deny the conditional aspect of human love is just to deny being human. You might as well go around calling yourself a robot or a dog for all you are doing. Like I said in the post above this one, your actions of violence against me are judgmental and while they may be justified, it isn't the actions of unconditional love.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Yes, I have maternal/paternal love for my child. I feel protective of her, and want her to grow up happy and healthy. But I also know that I will never withdraw my love from her, no matter what she does or doesn't do. According to your definitions, that is unconditional love.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

That's what I said, dude. I think it's YOU that's doing the misreading. Cut it out or I'll kick your ass.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Serdgiam
That said, many are also under the assumption that acting from a place of unconditional love means simply taking abuse, never calling someone out on their behavior, etc. That is just as equally erroneous as attempting to shoehorn unconditional love into conditions. Im not really even sure what experience this is referring to, as it sounds much more like apathy to me.

Why do you say that? Do you not know what the meaning of the word unconditional is? Calling someone out on their behavior is being judgmental, that isn't unconditional love.

By saying "X is X, that isnt Y," you are also applying strict conditions and parameters.

Unconditional, in this context, refers to an experience that is present regardless of what happens. The subjective interpretation of the actions is not relevant as they stipulate conditions only on the actions themselves, and do not determine whether the individual is in a state of what is called "unconditional love."

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Yes, I have maternal/paternal love for my child. I feel protective of her, and want her to grow up happy and healthy. But I also know that I will never withdraw my love from her, no matter what she does or doesn't do. According to your definitions, that is unconditional love.

Except, you love this child because she is your daughter. In other words, "if person is my daughter, then shower with boundless love" That is a conditional statement. If I presented you with a random girl that wasn't of your blood, would you feel the same way about her?

a reply to: BlueMule

Well played

Loving without conditions makes little sense in practice. But proclaiming one utilizes unconditional love does make sense, insofar as it makes one appear to be a loving human being to others, in the vain attempt to achieve higher social status.

originally posted by: Aphorism
Loving without conditions makes little sense in practice. But proclaiming one utilizes unconditional love does make sense, insofar as it makes one appear to be a loving human being to others, in the vain attempt to achieve higher social status.

I think replacing "higher social status" with "higher quality of life" might be more applicable.

The social status may, or may not, be relevant to the individual. However, there does seem to be the commonality of pursuing a higher quality of life across the board of humanity.

a reply to: Serdgiam

I think replacing "higher social status" with "higher quality of life" might be more applicable.

The social status may, or may not, be relevant to the individual. However, there does seem to be the commonality of pursuing a higher quality of life across the board of humanity.

I'm not sure how proclaiming oneself as someone who loves unconditionally leads to a higher quality of life, though perhaps if others agree with the declaration, it may lead to more social reward. But social reward does not necessarily lead to higher quality of life.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: BlueMule

IT IS PERFECTLY OK TO LOVE SOMEONE CONDITIONALLY.

Let me just expand on this a bit. I agree with you. As I said in my first post, only people who have had a certain kind of mystical experience are capable of unconditional love. Everyone else should do the best they can, which is by default conditional love.

You might as well go around calling yourself a robot or a dog for all you are doing. Like I said in the post above this one, your actions of violence against me are judgmental and while they may be justified, it isn't the actions of unconditional love.

Unconditional love is not dependent on your actions, violent or otherwise.

Unconditional love reaches beyond good and evil, to the hidden place between shame and shamelessness. It is not ashamed or afraid of any truth.

It reaches beyond the ego-self, which you think you are, to the heart of paradox. Beyond time, beyond space, beyond matter, beyond multiplicity. That's why non-mystics can't grok it. They don't have the background experience, by definition.

originally posted by: Aphorism
I'm not sure how proclaiming oneself as someone who loves unconditionally leads to a higher quality of life, though perhaps if others agree with the declaration, it may lead to more social reward. But social reward does not necessarily lead to higher quality of life.

It doesnt directly relate to that, because its unconditional. Its an experience that, historically, is viewed as connecting to a deeper pool of some sort. Not necessarily a direct connection with the emotion of love. That has likely introduced confusion as to historical precedence for the experience that is attempting to be related. Interesting how language can shape our world, isnt it?

However, I think its fair to say that we can most certainly put conditions on the general human experience through which we would filter such an experience. And, not everyone is interested in social status alone, but id say the majority of humans do have improving quality of life as a primary pursuit.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I guess based on that list I would fall under spiritual love, though it seems to me that is also unconditional.

a reply to: Serdgiam

It doesnt directly relate to that, because its unconditional. Its an experience that, historically, is viewed as connecting to a deeper pool of some sort.

However, I think its fair to say that we can most certainly put conditions on the general human experience through which we would filter such an experience. And, not everyone is interested in social status alone, but id say the majority of humans do have improving quality of life as a primary pursuit.

I can agree with that.

But with a little introspection, we can see that the "deeper pool" is merely one's own delusion. For instance, unconditional love, would, by necessity, reach to Adolf Hitler and child-rapists. Of course no one would admit that they love child-rapists or Adolf Hitler, so therefor the idea and proclamation "unconditional love" is used only when it suits them.

a reply to: BlueMule

I guess this just boils down to a slightly different opinion on the matter between you and I, but for the most part we are in agreement. I guess I just kind of misunderstood what you were trying to say a bit.