Are we witnessing the beginning of ethnic cleansing in Ukraine?

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: cosmonova
Oh I see, another fan of history books.

Oh, yes. Those inconvenient history books! Sometime the truth hurts. However, understanding the past crimes of Russia in Ukraine may help understand why Ukrainians want to face Europe.

I guess the onus is on you to prove ethnic cleansing is underway as you are making the assertion. Pointing to pro-Russian blogs is hardly evidence, is it?

The latest news is that the Ukrainian President is calling for a ceasefire and has said Ukrainian forces will unilaterally do so.

www.independent.co.uk...

Let's hope this plan prevails and some of the pro Russian fighters can return home to Chechnya and Russia.

Regards

Ok there is a bit of history for you. History about Stepan Bandera's OUN-B and UPA and ethnic cleansing they committed in WW2 in Ukraine. The same Stepan Bandera whose pictures and monuments you can see everywhere in Western Ukraine. The same Stepan Bandera in whose name many Maidan warriors are now participating in NazGuard TO throughout Novorossiya, screaming 'Glory to Nation-death of the enemy'.
www.volhyniamassacre.eu...


there is another nice peace of read for you as well:

Marchenko Vladimir Romanovich, a member of the Ukrainian parliament, from eastern Ukraine issued the following statement:

“I demand an immediate end to the killing of my countrymen in the Donbass region instrumented under a punitive operation led by armed Ukrainian neo-Nazis.

I was born and raised in Slavyansk. In this city my mother and father are buried. My relatives live in Kramatorsk in Donetsk and Mariupol.

Donbass workers diligently worked for the good of the [Ukrainian] motherland. Unlike the Galician fascists, my [Ukrainian] fellow countrymen fought the Nazis [during World War II] instead of serving them.

Donbass workers as the entire South-East of Ukraine are at the forefront of recovery from chaos created by the junta for Ukraine [the Kiev coalition government].

We are not separatists. We are a proud working people who will not kneel before [Nazi] Bandera, we will not betray our Russian brothers.

We only want honest work, life with dignity without humiliation and insults, with the respect for our historical roots and our spiritual and cultural values.

We will never accept [Neo-Nazi] “Banderization” and Euro-colonization of Ukraine!

We will not be cannon fodder in the U.S. war against Russia!

In accordance with the will of the people of the whole country [Ukraine] expressed in the referendum in 1991, we want to be in union with Russia and Belarus. This is the essence of our demands.

But the [Kiev] junta is hunting us, it has proclaimed a policy of genocide

- “Pro-Russians on knives”, “Ukraine for Ukrainians”, “Glory to the nation - death of the enemy”.

Yes, we do not believe in Bandera’s Ukraine, Nazi henchmen and criminals.

Yes, that’s our stance.

It is our right to defend our legitimate interests, our lives and security from the declared genocide and oppression.

Today the junta has declared war against us with the unconstitutional use of the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

I appeal to the soldiers and officers of Ukraine: Do not follow criminal orders.

Do not shoot my countrymen! Remember the Nuremberg Trials that convicted the leaders of Nazi Germany who gave the unlawful orders and those who carried them.

I appeal to the U.S. president: President Obama, stop your Banderites! Don’t disgrace the Nobel Peace Prize!”

For the murder of my countrymen, you will be held responsible! [emphasis added]

Hero of Ukraine, Stepan Bandera

a reply to: cosmonova

At least try to keep this on topic rather than blindly posting selected snippets from history to help you justify the Nazguard taunt, having just told me to "get my head out of history books" when referring to Russian attempts at genocide in Ukraine.

But back to topic. Can you prove ethnic cleansing is underway, thus supporting the OP.

Regards

originally posted by: paraphi
a reply to: cosmonova

At least try to keep this on topic rather than blindly posting selected snippets from history to help you justify the Nazguard taunt, having just told me to "get my head out of history books" when referring to Russian attempts at genocide in Ukraine.

But back to topic. Can you prove ethnic cleansing is underway, thus supporting the OP.

Regards

Keep on topic? Did you read my previous post?
Stepan Bandera, mastermind of ethnic cleansing in 1942,1943
Stepan Bandera followers 2014, armed and operating under different para- military formations in Novorossiya. Shelling cities and towns day and night.
Destroying homes, schools, hospitals, churches, killing civilians, and conducting terror campaign which is resulting in displacement of thousands ethnic Russians.
Meantime people in power in Kiev are promising free land to those who are fighting 'subhumans' (Ukrainian acting PM gave them this lovely description). I wonder whose land is that.
Or to make it easier for you-'displace 'subhumans' and you can have their land' policy.
Would that be ethnic cleansing?
That statement from Marchenko in my previous post sums up perfectly how millions of ethnic Russians in Novorossiya feel.

originally posted by: cosmonova
Would that be ethnic cleansing?

No, it would not be!

Is this the Stepan Bandera who spent most of WW2 in a concentration camp and was killed by the KGB in 1959? I don't think the Russian's liked him!

Not sure what he had to do with the Soviet engineered famine in 1932/33 which killed upwards of 10 million Ukrainians, but hey, that's history.

Regards

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: cosmonova
Would that be ethnic cleansing?

No, it would not be!

Is this the Stepan Bandera who spent most of WW2 in a concentration camp and was killed by the KGB in 1959? I don't think the Russian's liked him!

Not sure what he had to do with the Soviet engineered famine in 1932/33 which killed upwards of 10 million Ukrainians, but hey, that's history.

Regards

no, this Stepan Bandera.

In late 1942, Bandera's organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, was involved in a campaign of ethnic cleansing of Volhynia, and in early 1944, these campaigns began to include Eastern Galicia. It is estimated that nearly 70,000 Poles, mostly women and children along with unarmed men, were killed during the spring and summer campaign of 1943 in Volhynia[39] by the OUN-Bandera which bears primary responsibility for the massacres.

and for doing that he received this:

On January 22, 2010, on the Day of Unity of Ukraine, the then-President of Ukraine Viktor Yushchenko awarded to Bandera the title of Hero of Ukraine (posthumously) for "defending national ideas and battling for an independent Ukrainian state.

And you think Bandera ideology is going to be forced upon Novorossiya and its people? Think again.


Also a note, Russia was a part of Soviet Union same as Ukraine, they were all Soviets so do not try to blame Russians for Soviet Union era, they all equally suffered.

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: cosmonova
Would that be ethnic cleansing?

No, it would not be!

Yes it actually is.

Nazguard forces destroying Slavyansk, Poroshenko bombing its own people and praised by west for it.
This is ethnic cleansing, purposely bombing and conducting terror operations to force people to leave the place.

Vice News report

Thanks for the history lesson, but just as there are a small number of far right groups in Ukraine, there are a whole bunch in Russia too, including on the pro Russian separatist side. However, these groups do not hold the mainstream, so referring to Ukrainians as Nazguard is deliberately inflammatory because Ukrainians are not fascists, as well you know.

Need I remind you that the self proclaimed Governor of the Donetsk Republic, Pavel Gubarev was a member of the neo Nazi aligned Russian National Unity group. Seems to me like the fascists are all out and fighting!

www.start.umd.edu...

Oh, and it is a good tactic to blame everyone else of genocide, but the Russian's really went for the records in Ukraine. That is historical fact, even though the Russians are masters in trying to cover up the past. Many in Russia still think Stalin was a peaceful chap who would not hurt a fly, let alone untold millions, including Ukrainians. We know the truth.

Regards

a reply to: cosmonova

another interesting article

Here you go a very interesting article...

The views echoed among Russia's state-owned television networks have taken a firm grip on the country's population, according to the results of a poll published Monday.

The Levada Center, a Moscow-based independent research organization, revealed that 94 percent of the population relies on domestic television networks to follow developments in Ukraine and Crimea. The outcome of the poll, which was conducted in April, was based on the opinions of a representative sample of 1,602 adults across 45 regions.

Russia's television news landscape is comprised largely of state-owned networks that tend to support the Kremlin's account of the situation in Ukraine. The poll suggests that the views presented by state-run news broadcasts have shaped the Russian population's opinions on the situation.

The Levada Center found that 44 percent of respondents think foreign media outlets are "not very objective" about the situation in Ukraine, while 50 percent consider Russia's state media outlets to be "generally objective."

www.themoscowtimes.com...

It would be very interesting as to what the Russian population would say if they were to see something other than what Putin wants them to see.

a reply to: paraphi

Need I remind you that the self proclaimed Governor of the Donetsk Republic, Pavel Gubarev was a member of the neo Nazi aligned Russian National Unity group. Seems to me like the fascists are all out and fighting!

Well if that don't beat all, a Russian Nazi running things in Ukraine.

Guys stay on topic please, ethnic cleansing in Ukraine in particular in Slavyansk.
Derailing this topic is not going to hide what is going on there.
Any comments on Vice News report from Slavyansk?

a reply to: cosmonova

Meh, political plays. Theres no nazis with that much money and no ethnic anything given ukrainians and russians history.

Bottom line russia #s on anyone they cant use, and if its someone on their border, they force tejir "friendship" like they did in eastern europe before.

Eastern ukraine all of a sudden has an army in the thousands and tanks, rockets and other heavy weapons from a bunch of random ukrainian army bases in the area?

Its obvious its a political struggle for power, and the civilians in the east are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

If russians wanna join russia, sell your house and move to russia. Not a hard concept in the 20th centruy civilized world.

Me being born in a country and owning some land doesnt mean i get to make my own country or that my farm all of a sudden joins another country because i like germany more than poland for example.

Theres bull# on both sides and as usual the people who want nothing to do with war or politics are the ones getting hurt the most. Hopefully they flee into russia or other sides of the country until things settle.

originally posted by: paraphi
Oh, and it is a good tactic to blame everyone else of genocide, but the Russian's really went for the records in Ukraine. That is historical fact, even though the Russians are masters in trying to cover up the past. Many in Russia still think Stalin was a peaceful chap who would not hurt a fly, let alone untold millions, including Ukrainians. We know the truth.

Regards

First of all, it wasn't really genocide. Mass death, yes, but I'm pretty sure that the Russians were not aiming to wipe out millions of Ukrainians (or rather, people who were living in what is now Ukraine). Genocide is the deliberate act of erasing an ethnic group.

Second, this was when, 50-60 years ago? If we are setting this logic as the standard, then we may as well claim that Angela Merkel's Germany is still Nazi Germany, or Obama's USA is still officially racially segregated. But they're not. Just like the Russian Federation is not Russians of the rapidly-developing USSR of the past era.

In fact, you are bringing up things that happened generations ago, and the current generation did not grow up during such different times. However, the obvious neo-Nazi sentiment exists among the pro-Kiev Ukrainians who wear Naziesque insignia, rally around a WWII-era sympathizer who murdered many Ukrainians, and view ethnic Russians as "subhumans who are evil and must be wiped out" (in the words of the current Ukrainian PM).

In fact, the rebels have easily identified the junta's forces as fascist neo-Nazis and portray themselves as the Soviet resistance that eventually smashed the fascists before. They even found a stash of a lot of soviet armour, which made them feel even more like the Soviets fighting the west and its fascist puppets.

As for the National Guard, a lot of them are openly fascist volunteers, young conscripts, or foreign mercenaries. The latest claim is a British SAS Major Wilkes found injured. He was apparently there officially as a military advisor for the junta. Here's a pic, judge for yourself:


Now if it's true that officers from NATO countries are directing ground battles, then it really begs the question as to why Ukraine has attacked Russian border crossings lately. Is it to provoke a response?

originally posted by: buggy166
a reply to: cosmonova

Meh, political plays. Theres no nazis with that much money and no ethnic anything given ukrainians and russians history.

Bottom line russia #s on anyone they cant use, and if its someone on their border, they force tejir "friendship" like they did in eastern europe before.

Eastern ukraine all of a sudden has an army in the thousands and tanks, rockets and other heavy weapons from a bunch of random ukrainian army bases in the area?

Its obvious its a political struggle for power, and the civilians in the east are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

If russians wanna join russia, sell your house and move to russia. Not a hard concept in the 20th centruy civilized world.

Me being born in a country and owning some land doesnt mean i get to make my own country or that my farm all of a sudden joins another country because i like germany more than poland for example.

Theres bull# on both sides and as usual the people who want nothing to do with war or politics are the ones getting hurt the most. Hopefully they flee into russia or other sides of the country until things settle.

Move to Russia? Why would they, they are on their land. Novorossiya to be precise.

originally posted by: cosmonova

originally posted by: buggy166
a reply to: cosmonova

Meh, political plays. Theres no nazis with that much money and no ethnic anything given ukrainians and russians history.

Bottom line russia #s on anyone they cant use, and if its someone on their border, they force tejir "friendship" like they did in eastern europe before.

Eastern ukraine all of a sudden has an army in the thousands and tanks, rockets and other heavy weapons from a bunch of random ukrainian army bases in the area?

Its obvious its a political struggle for power, and the civilians in the east are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

If russians wanna join russia, sell your house and move to russia. Not a hard concept in the 20th centruy civilized world.

Me being born in a country and owning some land doesnt mean i get to make my own country or that my farm all of a sudden joins another country because i like germany more than poland for example.

Theres bull# on both sides and as usual the people who want nothing to do with war or politics are the ones getting hurt the most. Hopefully they flee into russia or other sides of the country until things settle.

Move to Russia? Why would they, they are on their land. Novorossiya to be precise.

It's as if the difference between ethnic status and citizenship is hard to comprehend for some. Kinda like how most North Americans are only a few generations American, but ethnically British, Irish, French, etc.

Saying that "the rebels should move back to Russia" is as absurd as saying Quebecers should move back to France.

a reply to: Vovin

I saw a Vice Russian Roulet report a few days ago where they followed a guy delivering a shipment of surplus British uniforms to the Ukranian front. I don't discount the remote possibility that it could be a picture of exactly what you claim, but it strikes me that he could just be a guy in one of aforementioned surplus British uniforms supplied to the Ukranians.

a reply to: cosmonova

And this is not?

The Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights on Wednesday issued a new report on Ukraine that describes the breakdown of law and order in the areas held by armed groups in the east of the country – with increasing evidence of abductions, detentions, torture, and killings – as well as a number of “worrying trends” emerging in Crimea.

~ ~ ~

As well as fleeing random violence and deteriorating economic and social conditions, some displaced people interviewed cited “targeted attacks and intimidation of activists, and increasingly of ‘ordinary’ residents, known for their ‘Pro-Ukrainian’ stance.”

www.ohchr.org...

Seems to me that, if anyone, Strelkov is responsible for ethnic cleansing and Kiev are trying to stop him ....

a reply to: cosmonova

Move to Russia? Why would they, they are on their land. Novorossiya to be precise.

And their land is located where... in Ukraine?

And maybe you can point out exactly where Novorossiya is here on this map of Ukraine,because for the life of me I can't find it anywhere.



And why does the so called flag of Novorossiya look familiar?



Put you some stars on it and we have this...



And we know through history what happened to those who flew this flag.

a reply to: AndyMayhew

Seems to me that, if anyone, Strelkov is responsible for ethnic cleansing and Kiev are trying to stop him ....

That can't be true Russia would never do something like that.

hotair.com...

a reply to: Vovin

In fact, the rebels have easily identified the junta's forces as fascist neo-Nazis and portray themselves as the Soviet resistance that eventually smashed the fascists before. They even found a stash of a lot of soviet armour, which made them feel even more like the Soviets fighting the west and its fascist puppets.

Still calling the whole of Ukraine gov't nazi's and facist I see.

Hey wait isn't the Donetsk Republic leader associated with a Russian neo nazi group, so by your logic he is exactly what you keep calling the Ukraine gov't.

Also wouldn't that make Russia the same because some of it's ethnic Russians living in Ukraine have the neo nazi ideology?

That is if we go by your way of thinking. Ironic isn't it that a neo nazi is running things for Russia in Ukraine.