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Are we witnessing the beginning of ethnic cleansing in Ukraine?

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posted on Jul, 3 2014 @ 01:36 AM
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originally posted by: cosmonova


The continuing punitive military operations in Ukraine bring to question how far a Government can go to squash dissent. The Western-backed government in the eyes of many is guilty of horrible crimes from Mariupol to Odessa. And there have been accusations of war crimes, as heavy artillery, white phosphorus and cluster bombs are being used in Slavyansk, Lugansk and other areas. Charles Shoebridge, a former military intelligence counterterrorism officer, believes that the punitive operation Ukraine is waging against its own people.

Read more: voiceofrussia.com...


Come on now you buy into anything dont you? You know the white phosphorus turned out to be video georgia and Iraq. Look its great that you want to help people i get it but at least be critical of your sources trust me when i say i ignore half of what Ukraine puts out as propaganda. Russia is in full swing trying to make this look like something its not. Putin is stuck playing this hand no matter how badit is he put all his chips on the table. To the international community they dont believe him but being former KGB he knows tell a lie often enough people begin to believe it. Problem is Russian media isnt the only one there and the UN reports keep disproving his lies making it look worse.




posted on Jul, 3 2014 @ 05:46 AM
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Results of shelling in Kramatorsk, another residential building targeted by Nazguard forces.




posted on Jul, 3 2014 @ 05:53 AM
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shelling of Slavyansk, they do not even look where it goes. It looks like competition, who is going to do it faster.





posted on Jul, 3 2014 @ 11:51 PM
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Money is changing hands i have no other explanation for this but its being reported militants are starting to work for the Ukrainian military. Either they switched sides for more money or something that the donetsk republic is doing made them have second thought. Im guessing money but something is changing.

news.yahoo.com...



posted on Jul, 4 2014 @ 01:24 AM
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originally posted by: dragonridr
Money is changing hands i have no other explanation for this but its being reported militants are starting to work for the Ukrainian military. Either they switched sides for more money or something that the donetsk republic is doing made them have second thought. Im guessing money but something is changing.

news.yahoo.com...


Where in your source does it claim any of that?

Also, the article is laughable. It blames Putin for not commanding the "pro-Russian militants" to back down... Yet the separatists have openly stated many times that they know Russia is not coming to aid them. They are not controlled by Russia and never were.



posted on Jul, 4 2014 @ 01:42 AM
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originally posted by: Vovin

originally posted by: dragonridr
Money is changing hands i have no other explanation for this but its being reported militants are starting to work for the Ukrainian military. Either they switched sides for more money or something that the donetsk republic is doing made them have second thought. Im guessing money but something is changing.

news.yahoo.com...


Where in your source does it claim any of that?

Also, the article is laughable. It blames Putin for not commanding the "pro-Russian militants" to back down... Yet the separatists have openly stated many times that they know Russia is not coming to aid them. They are not controlled by Russia and never were.


Its one of the photos heres the header for it




Former militants of the so-called People's Republic of Donetsk sided with the Ukrainian army, patrol near a check-point in the north of the Donetsk region on July 3, 2014 (AFP Photo/Genya Savilov)


As far as Putin being in control we know he is there was the intercepts of phone conversations between the separatists and moscow. So theres no doubt Putin has control there Russian citizens after all remember there the one in charge Ukrainians are not in charge of the separatists.



posted on Jul, 6 2014 @ 08:35 PM
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a reply to: cosmonova

I dont think anybody cares, it is a mistake to think that people especially those in the US or other more refined countries can do anything thing about it or would be willing, in fact its been proven time and time again that they seem to always pick the wrong candidates. So yes, all these great freedom fighters have taken up arms to fight the invasion going on in there own country, and they just happen to start by bombing and shelling sleepy little towns were there grandma and grandpa live. Collateral damage eh! Your people put these people in power remember. So yes blue team VS red team, the game is set that both lose and nobody knows who is who, its been said before but deception is the basis of warfare.



posted on Jul, 7 2014 @ 02:45 AM
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originally posted by: galadofwarthethird
a reply to: cosmonova

I dont think anybody cares, it is a mistake to think that people especially those in the US or other more refined countries can do anything thing about it or would be willing, in fact its been proven time and time again that they seem to always pick the wrong candidates. So yes, all these great freedom fighters have taken up arms to fight the invasion going on in there own country, and they just happen to start by bombing and shelling sleepy little towns were there grandma and grandpa live. Collateral damage eh! Your people put these people in power remember. So yes blue team VS red team, the game is set that both lose and nobody knows who is who, its been said before but deception is the basis of warfare.


You hit the nail on the head the US doesnt care or have any vested interest in the outcome and Obama is just doing lip service. Without the US the international community will condemn it but no action will be taken. Right or wrong this is between Russia and Ukraine and no matter the outcome i think both sides will realize it wasnt worth the fight.



posted on Jul, 7 2014 @ 03:24 AM
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Nope. There are not millions or hundreds of thousands of dead Ukrainians. So no cleansing here just political strife at best. AND USA STAY OUT OF IT!

THIS IS BETWEEN TWO COUNTRIES AND USA IS NOT ONE OF THEM!!!!!



posted on Jul, 8 2014 @ 09:11 PM
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originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: galadofwarthethird
a reply to: cosmonova

I dont think anybody cares, it is a mistake to think that people especially those in the US or other more refined countries can do anything thing about it or would be willing, in fact its been proven time and time again that they seem to always pick the wrong candidates. So yes, all these great freedom fighters have taken up arms to fight the invasion going on in there own country, and they just happen to start by bombing and shelling sleepy little towns were there grandma and grandpa live. Collateral damage eh! Your people put these people in power remember. So yes blue team VS red team, the game is set that both lose and nobody knows who is who, its been said before but deception is the basis of warfare.


You hit the nail on the head the US doesnt care or have any vested interest in the outcome and Obama is just doing lip service. Without the US the international community will condemn it but no action will be taken. Right or wrong this is between Russia and Ukraine and no matter the outcome i think both sides will realize it wasnt worth the fight.


This is an outright lie.

How can you seriously claim that the USA has no vested interest in Ukraine?

Here's the facts:

- Ukraine is a "pivot" nation in terms of controlling Eastern Europe, which itself is essential to sustaining global hegemony. This is exactly what Brzezinski describes himself in "The Grand Chessboard". Brzezinski was a top NSA analyst and advisor to a few presidents. His strategems have been followed for decades.

- USA State Department spent billions of dollars instituting regime change in Ukraine for several years. US State Department consulates and embassies are well known as conduits for housing and supplying American agents, ranging from CIA to psyops groups.

- First major coup attempt in Ukraine was in 2008, but it did not go anywhere. I remember that American media spent more time covering it then their own affairs. American media made all kinds of claims to discredit Russians and Russian involvement in Ukraine. It's quite silly considering that most Americans probably couldn't locate Ukraine as neighbouring Russia on a map.

- this coup clearly showed American state department officials interacting and backing radical right-wing minority groups for the new Ukraine regime, AFTER they used and abandoned the populist Maiden force to push out the old regime. It is well recorded and well known that the USA's foreign policy is to pressure target countries into a populist revolt, then replace democratically-elected leaders with right-wing radicals. In fact, billionaire oligarchs now hold top positions in Ukraine, which is the last thing Maiden, an anti-corruption movement, wanted.

- US government (and allies like Canada) coordinated an Iraq-quality misinformation campaign against Russia and sanctioned Russia for things that were unproven, and would be legal anyways. If Russia had its military ready to invade Ukraine, then why would the USA care enough to sanction Russia if the USA did not have an investment in what had happened in Ukraine?

- The American government speaks to the world on Ukraine's behalf, as if Ukraine was a colony (which it now is). Do you not think it strange that Jen Psaki is making statements that President Poroshenko should be making?

- Jen Psaki, on behalf of the USA and Ukraine governments, makes appalling and hypocritical statements. For instance, she just said that it's perfectly fine for Kiev to use airstrikes to bomb urban areas to get at "terrorists who go into buildings". Yet the USA and allies carried out a 10,000 air sortie campaign against Libya on the pretext that Gaddafi was ordering airstrikes against terrorists, and they almost did it again in Syria for the same pretext.

Meanwhile, regimes in Ukraine and Israel are bombing urban areas and murdering many civilians, and the USA government justifies it because "terrorism". And you claim the USA does not have a vested interest? Ukraine could be for Eastern Europe what the USA has turned Israel into for the Middle East.



posted on Jul, 8 2014 @ 10:26 PM
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originally posted by: Vovin

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: galadofwarthethird
a reply to: cosmonova

I dont think anybody cares, it is a mistake to think that people especially those in the US or other more refined countries can do anything thing about it or would be willing, in fact its been proven time and time again that they seem to always pick the wrong candidates. So yes, all these great freedom fighters have taken up arms to fight the invasion going on in there own country, and they just happen to start by bombing and shelling sleepy little towns were there grandma and grandpa live. Collateral damage eh! Your people put these people in power remember. So yes blue team VS red team, the game is set that both lose and nobody knows who is who, its been said before but deception is the basis of warfare.


You hit the nail on the head the US doesnt care or have any vested interest in the outcome and Obama is just doing lip service. Without the US the international community will condemn it but no action will be taken. Right or wrong this is between Russia and Ukraine and no matter the outcome i think both sides will realize it wasnt worth the fight.


This is an outright lie.

How can you seriously claim that the USA has no vested interest in Ukraine?

Here's the facts:

- Ukraine is a "pivot" nation in terms of controlling Eastern Europe, which itself is essential to sustaining global hegemony. This is exactly what Brzezinski describes himself in "The Grand Chessboard". Brzezinski was a top NSA analyst and advisor to a few presidents. His strategems have been followed for decades.

- USA State Department spent billions of dollars instituting regime change in Ukraine for several years. US State Department consulates and embassies are well known as conduits for housing and supplying American agents, ranging from CIA to psyops groups.

- First major coup attempt in Ukraine was in 2008, but it did not go anywhere. I remember that American media spent more time covering it then their own affairs. American media made all kinds of claims to discredit Russians and Russian involvement in Ukraine. It's quite silly considering that most Americans probably couldn't locate Ukraine as neighbouring Russia on a map.

- this coup clearly showed American state department officials interacting and backing radical right-wing minority groups for the new Ukraine regime, AFTER they used and abandoned the populist Maiden force to push out the old regime. It is well recorded and well known that the USA's foreign policy is to pressure target countries into a populist revolt, then replace democratically-elected leaders with right-wing radicals. In fact, billionaire oligarchs now hold top positions in Ukraine, which is the last thing Maiden, an anti-corruption movement, wanted.

- US government (and allies like Canada) coordinated an Iraq-quality misinformation campaign against Russia and sanctioned Russia for things that were unproven, and would be legal anyways. If Russia had its military ready to invade Ukraine, then why would the USA care enough to sanction Russia if the USA did not have an investment in what had happened in Ukraine?

- The American government speaks to the world on Ukraine's behalf, as if Ukraine was a colony (which it now is). Do you not think it strange that Jen Psaki is making statements that President Poroshenko should be making?

- Jen Psaki, on behalf of the USA and Ukraine governments, makes appalling and hypocritical statements. For instance, she just said that it's perfectly fine for Kiev to use airstrikes to bomb urban areas to get at "terrorists who go into buildings". Yet the USA and allies carried out a 10,000 air sortie campaign against Libya on the pretext that Gaddafi was ordering airstrikes against terrorists, and they almost did it again in Syria for the same pretext.

Meanwhile, regimes in Ukraine and Israel are bombing urban areas and murdering many civilians, and the USA government justifies it because "terrorism". And you claim the USA does not have a vested interest? Ukraine could be for Eastern Europe what the USA has turned Israel into for the Middle East.


Your living in a Putin fantasy world he needed a bad guy hes already gone through several in his distraction for the russian people. Just like Hitler creating false flags to create an external enemy. He needs this as a distraction so Russians dont realize hes consolidating power. As far as the US government they spent millions in that area Russia was the largest benefactor to US aid. Ukraine received help but look where it went they used it as cleanup to chernobyl for example. As far as Libya you bought into a lie again no surprize there really you hardly show any critical thinking. It was the UK and France that pushed the issue in Libya. The US didnt even get involved in air support we declined what the US agreed to do was to stop shipments of weapons by setting up a naval blockade. This was based on a report to the UN and a UN resolution where they were concerned with destruction of entire towns by his troops. Had he not died he would be on trial at the Hague just like his son. He was torturing and killing civilians by the hundreds all because he believed by doing this he could cut off the rebels support. At first the UN was good with a no fly zone which was enforced by france the UK and Canada. Problem was in there over flights they saw gaddafi sending his troops into slaughter entire villages. Instead of air power he used artillery and tanks sending in troops who did summary executions in the middle of the streets. You really didnt want to be in an area his troops took over they randomly grabbed civilians trying to teach lessons to the rebels.

After the pilots reported back from their missions the UK and France petitioned the UN for further help and was authorized to use air strikes to stop his armies. Gaddafi miscalculated the UN response and thought this wouldnt happen. Libya was never about terrorism like you claim nice try. As far as Syria the US so badly tried to keep out of it they turned it over to Russia who well screwed up and made it worse.

See you might want to stop using Russian media as your news source and use the internet the information is out there in fact theres information on the trials of his sons as well look at what occurred but my guess is you're ok with it doesnt bother you he kidnapped women and children threatened to kill them if the rebels didnt surrender and when they didnt killed them.

Now lets move to Ukraine Putin wants you to believe the US thinks Ukraine is important is it did there would already be 50000 troops there. There is no significance to the US this was the EU wanting access to resources. And Putin deciding that he owned Ukraine nothing more. This didnt become an issue until the revolution in which case being in Europe the state department of course becomes concerned. Problem was as this went forward the Russians had so infiltrated the Ukrainian government that it fell apart quickly.



posted on Jul, 8 2014 @ 10:31 PM
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a reply to: dragonridr

One more thing notice now that they closed the Russian border they have the separatists down to two cities no fresh supplies of troops from Russia go figure. And when there military retake cities the people get water food something the separatists were trying to prevent. If you havnt noticed they have them surrounded in two cities now its time for the Russians to surrender and allow the healing to begin. The Russians wont care how many civilians are caught up in this since they retreated into populated areas. There actually refusing to negotiate no surprize there Putin needs this to continue but there time is up. They no longer get new troops or supplies from Russia and without this its just a matter of time.



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 03:57 AM
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a reply to: dragonridr

Oh man that was a real mess of a post. And you claim I lack critical thinking skills. Well, my critical thinking skills advise me not to waste my time trying to decipher whatever you were rambling about.

This topic that we are discussing involves the destruction of entire nations, and the deaths of millions. Yet people like yourself manage to justify and try to condone the very cause of this perversion of power just for the sake of argument. This isn't about proving yourself correct. This is about social justice. If you are unwilling to put yourself in the place of the victims to try to understand why everything has gone wrong, then you are part of the problem.



posted on Jul, 9 2014 @ 10:14 AM
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originally posted by: Vovin
a reply to: dragonridr

Oh man that was a real mess of a post. And you claim I lack critical thinking skills. Well, my critical thinking skills advise me not to waste my time trying to decipher whatever you were rambling about.

This topic that we are discussing involves the destruction of entire nations, and the deaths of millions. Yet people like yourself manage to justify and try to condone the very cause of this perversion of power just for the sake of argument. This isn't about proving yourself correct. This is about social justice. If you are unwilling to put yourself in the place of the victims to try to understand why everything has gone wrong, then you are part of the problem.


Problem is you want to change the reality of the situation to match your preconceived notions. This is called observation bias and you ignore any facts contradicting you opinion. Nothing is black and white in the world in the case of Syria or Libya for example you ignore the actions of their leaders which lead to further actions. You give them a pass on what they do because you need them to be a victim.

In the real world nothing happens without consequences if you kill women and children like in the case of libya this caused France and the UK to act. Now the only argument you have is they should have ignored it and allowed it to occur. But that argument is weak its like a man sitting there watching someone else beat a child to death knowing they could stop it. Is there person watching responsible well not in a direct sense but most people would agree he should do something. Often this is the mess the UN and western nations have to deal with how far does someone have to go and when is it to much and deserves a response.

In Libya gaddafi was repeatedly warned by the UN and he chose to ignore it instead he decided to attack civilians to weaken the support the rebels would receive very similar to the purges in Russia. I would hope some day you realize all people are the same (you are willing to ignore anything as long as it was your chosen side) and deserve the same rights including not to be massacred by the leaders for no other reason than revenge and scare tactics. Iraq was a diffrent story that was flat out an attempt at regime change but in that situation they thought it would stabilize the middle east unlike Russia wasnt done as a land grab. And in your case trying to alter historical facts is well sad to say the least this is Hitlers tactics in WW2



posted on Jul, 10 2014 @ 01:32 AM
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a reply to: dragonridr

My "observation bias" is an in-depth formal education of geographical social-engineering. I already knew the fundamentals of this situation before it even happened. The evidence supports the greater social theory in place.

You're telling me that this is big bad Russia trying to screw up Ukraine. If this was 2003, you would be telling me that Iraq is about to bomb the USA. It's a weak logic that is doomed to failure because it is a completely fake and shallow narrative that is created all the time.

This is not about Russia and Ukraine. This is about imperial alliances vying for strategic control over strategic global regions to assert hegemony, and it is beyond obvious that the USA instigated this situation in Ukraine as a further step in a greater strategy of NATO's confinement strategy of encircling Russia in order to delimit Russia's ability to exert regional hegemony.



posted on Jul, 10 2014 @ 02:10 AM
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originally posted by: Vovin
a reply to: dragonridr

My "observation bias" is an in-depth formal education of geographical social-engineering. I already knew the fundamentals of this situation before it even happened. The evidence supports the greater social theory in place.

You're telling me that this is big bad Russia trying to screw up Ukraine. If this was 2003, you would be telling me that Iraq is about to bomb the USA. It's a weak logic that is doomed to failure because it is a completely fake and shallow narrative that is created all the time.

This is not about Russia and Ukraine. This is about imperial alliances vying for strategic control over strategic global regions to assert hegemony, and it is beyond obvious that the USA instigated this situation in Ukraine as a further step in a greater strategy of NATO's confinement strategy of encircling Russia in order to delimit Russia's ability to exert regional hegemony.


Well that doesnt make much sense now does it since Russia actually had offices in Nato headquarters until they decided to invade Crimea that is. Odd a group supposedly in place because of big bad Russia allows them to move in. Russia wasnt and still isnt a threat to NATO. Look militarily there no threat and we could argue there was an economic threat to Europe but even that is pushing it since Europe really doesnt have a market in direct competition with Russia. Since Russia's main export is energy reserves maybe shell might see them as a threat but than again they had alot of money invested in Russia. You bought into a boogie man created by Putin he needed an external threat so people wont watch what hes up to.Every dictator on the planet tries this it gives excuses for their actions.

Putin was the one who lost Ukraine he had options to prevent this before it even started and come out looking like a savior to Ukraine he just chose a different route. He figured going after the oil reserves in Crimea was worth the risk but i dont think he counted on the expenses involved to do so or the consequences. Georgia when he invaded was a win win unfortunately this time he cost Russians a lot more than he gained. Bottom line Putin has done everything he could to draw Ukraine into this conflict as a world leader he should have never accepted Crimean annexation.

Were you aware the US denied its occupational duties in Iraq and was considered a guest of the Iraqi government according to international law? Odd did Russia do that? no wait they annexed territory not the first time either even attempted it in Afghanistan they just got booted back out. Russia is still in an imperial mode long after the west moved on and now worries about market shares and resource acquisitions someone apparently forgot to tell Putin times have changed. Countries dont send troops into countries to annex territories Russia is the only country to do this since world war 2!



posted on Jul, 10 2014 @ 02:28 AM
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a reply to: dragonridr

Your analysis is weak and I completely disagree with it. I don't know what else you want from me. I could point out every reason why, and you would still deny it. So why would I waste my time?

You say things like "Russia invaded Crimea" based on zero real world evidence. Then you claim "Russia is not a threat to NATO" which is again, in contempt of real world strategic thinking. Then you start talking about economics, which is a vast topic.

There's geostrategy here that you're just not willing to accept. This goes beyond interactions between two countries. This is geopolitical alliance vs geopolitical alliance.

You keep claiming Russia is invading here or there, but they aren't. Unfortunately for the Novorussian rebels, they are too strong for their own good. Russia will move in to crush the fascist paramilitaries committing warcrimes outside of Kiev's control, but only when the Novorussian resistance is defeated. If the resistance wins, then great for them, but Russia is a capitalist empire just like any other and will rather directly control Novorussian economy than deal with complications from leftist rebels.

So there's a major flaw in your entire argument- the conception that the Novorussians are Russian agents or that Russia is controlling them. If Russia was going to invade Ukraine, they've had their chances where they could have stomped the new regime into the ground, and they didn't. Russia doesn't waste it's time and money backing leftist rebels. This is the Russian Federation, not the USSR.



posted on Jul, 10 2014 @ 03:09 AM
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originally posted by: Vovin
a reply to: dragonridr

Your analysis is weak and I completely disagree with it. I don't know what else you want from me. I could point out every reason why, and you would still deny it. So why would I waste my time?

You say things like "Russia invaded Crimea" based on zero real world evidence. Then you claim "Russia is not a threat to NATO" which is again, in contempt of real world strategic thinking. Then you start talking about economics, which is a vast topic.

There's geostrategy here that you're just not willing to accept. This goes beyond interactions between two countries. This is geopolitical alliance vs geopolitical alliance.

You keep claiming Russia is invading here or there, but they aren't. Unfortunately for the Novorussian rebels, they are too strong for their own good. Russia will move in to crush the fascist paramilitaries committing warcrimes outside of Kiev's control, but only when the Novorussian resistance is defeated. If the resistance wins, then great for them, but Russia is a capitalist empire just like any other and will rather directly control Novorussian economy than deal with complications from leftist rebels.

So there's a major flaw in your entire argument- the conception that the Novorussians are Russian agents or that Russia is controlling them. If Russia was going to invade Ukraine, they've had their chances where they could have stomped the new regime into the ground, and they didn't. Russia doesn't waste it's time and money backing leftist rebels. This is the Russian Federation, not the USSR.


The opportunity didnt present itself like it did in Crimea Russian economy cant handle a prolonged war its suffering as it is and if Putin tried the same game as in Crimea he knows hes got a war on his hands. Kiev made it perfectly clear how far there willing to go to prevent further annexation and the Russian military cant handle the consequences. Just keeping troops on the border was taxing the russian economy much less actual combat. And even though Russia has been upgrading its military its still only a small percentage it has a long way to go still. Russia will not under any circumstance risk an invasion of Ukraine the cost is just way to high. If they could pull off a coup through fake elections maybe but as i said that worked in Crimea and failed miserable in eastern Ukraine. As far as fascists yeah sure they won 1 percent of the vote wow there sure on there way to taking control of Ukraine.The right wing parties have more control in Russia than Ukraine. But i do believe Putins actions is going to increase the nationalist fervor in Ukraine eventually as they keep yelling about the threat Russia poses. But than again after this good likelihood Russia will not be a threat do to the economic downturn and loss of its domination in the energy markets in Europe so will have to see.



posted on Jul, 10 2014 @ 03:13 PM
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a reply to: dragonridr

Russian economy is suffering? Oh man you are hilarious. You have no clue what you're talking about.



posted on Jul, 10 2014 @ 06:24 PM
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Just like in Israel we are seing a one sided fight with tanks and jets being used to kill people in the east of the Ukraine and again our puppet press try to sell us a fake story about terrorists.

Mr Putin is working a scam with the west to push oil/gas prices up and like the people in the Ukraine we are also a victim of the global corporations and it will stay like that so long as we just keep talking about the real terrorists at home who are stuffing us blind



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