Stanton Friedman's thoughts on interstellar travel

originally posted by: Moresby

originally posted by: Ross 54
Dr. Harold White at NASA has been working on space warp experiments. He believes that it may be possible to create a space warp inside a ring with a high voltage electrical field. His results to date suggest the possibility that he has already managed to repeatedly create a small space warp. A second, independent experimenter has gotten somewhat similar results.
To confirm that this has actually happened, they intend to create a detector regime with less noise, so that the warp signature stands out better, if it is actually present. They also propose to begin oscillating the electrical field, at some point. This should make the process more efficient ( producing a more substantial warp field for a given amount of power used.)

And once he gets it working, the Vulcans show up, right?

That is an illogical statement. The Vulcans are merely a fictional species
On a slightly more serious note: Once we gain the capability of journeying to other inhabited worlds and causing trouble, we will probably have to be taken in hand, and shown how to act as responsible galactic citizens. We can't expect to be allowed to get away with some of the stuff we've been doing here on Earth!

originally posted by: Ross 54
Dr. Harold White at NASA has been working on space warp experiments. He believes that it may be possible to create a space warp inside a ring with a high voltage electrical field. His results to date suggest the possibility that he has already managed to repeatedly create a small space warp. A second, independent experimenter has gotten somewhat similar results.
To confirm that this has actually happened, they intend to create a detector regime with less noise, so that the warp signature stands out better, if it is actually present. They also propose to begin oscillating the electrical field, at some point. This should make the process more efficient ( producing a more substantial warp field for a given amount of power used.)

If they test it in space, where the gravitational effects of even the smallest of objects can be observed, there would be a noticeable difference between the gravitational attraction of an object to an object in warped space and the gravitational attraction to an object in normal space. So, if NASA has been successful with this technology, they ought to test it in space.

originally posted by: Erno86
Based on my own foofighter sighting in 1976 --- and other peoples sighting's of fiery foo balls as well ---- has made me come to the conclusion: That the otherworlders who have occasionally visited our planet, have shown us earthlings that magnetically confined fusion plasma is a distinct and real possibility for highly intelligent entities like themselves.

But you would still be confined to the light speed barrier.

Here's a thought:

Particles in superposition can be in two states at the same time.

Could you hold a magnetic particle in superposition over a particle that is not in superposition so that the magnetic attraction would be to attract and repel at the same time?

If you could do this, perhaps the particle that is not in superposition could be attracted to the particle that is in superposition while simultaneously repelling it so that they don't attract each other to make contact but the one that is not in superposition "chases" the one that is, and they continue to accelerate with a force that is equal to the strength of the magnetic field.

originally posted by: smithjustinb
Here's a thought:

Particles in superposition can be in two states at the same time.

Could you hold a magnetic particle in superposition over a particle that is not in superposition so that the magnetic attraction would be to attract and repel at the same time?

If you could do this, perhaps the particle that is not in superposition could be attracted to the particle that is in superposition while simultaneously repelling it so that they don't attract each other to make contact but the one that is not in superposition "chases" the one that is, and they continue to accelerate with a force that is equal to the strength of the magnetic field.

Again, we don't want more acceleration. That idea was long deemed pointless. Whether its more efficient fuel or particles repelling others at the atomic level.....you still encounter the same issues once you hit at/near light speed. You are smacking head on into matter near-instantaneously (Like a wall) and assuming you don't die, the force needed to accelerate increases exponentially.

The only realistic solution would be to warp space as in the Alcubierre model, or jump large distances in an instant (Wormholes etc).

Perhaps no civilization will ever do this....perhaps our experimentation with gravity, magnetic fields....will lead to humanity achieving time travel. Maybe all the sighting are us ;-)

originally posted by: LogicalRazor

originally posted by: smithjustinb
Here's a thought:

Particles in superposition can be in two states at the same time.

Could you hold a magnetic particle in superposition over a particle that is not in superposition so that the magnetic attraction would be to attract and repel at the same time?

If you could do this, perhaps the particle that is not in superposition could be attracted to the particle that is in superposition while simultaneously repelling it so that they don't attract each other to make contact but the one that is not in superposition "chases" the one that is, and they continue to accelerate with a force that is equal to the strength of the magnetic field.

Again, we don't want more acceleration. That idea was long deemed pointless. Whether its more efficient fuel or particles repelling others at the atomic level.....you still encounter the same issues once you hit at/near light speed. You are smacking head on into matter near-instantaneously (Like a wall) and assuming you don't die, the force needed to accelerate increases exponentially.

The only realistic solution would be to warp space as in the Alcubierre model, or jump large distances in an instant (Wormholes etc).

Perhaps no civilization will ever do this....perhaps our experimentation with gravity, magnetic fields....will lead to humanity achieving time travel. Maybe all the sighting are us ;-)

I get what you're saying. To break the light speed barrier, you have to make a change to space itself. However, think about what I said and tell me if you think it would be a good idea for travel around earth, or maybe even to mars or somewhere closer.

I'm not a fan of Friedman's ETH fusion propulsion thing. We'd see their radiators, and whenever the aliens would light up the primary drive. The local solar system doesn't seem to be teeming with alien spacecraft, and the phenomena seems localized to Earth...

Personally with regards to ETH, I suspect we are dealing with wormholes produced in the Jovian-Io flux tube and ejected towards Earth (I need to find the period for this...still a work in process before I can produce a thread) where the wormholes (as charged particles) get captured by magnetic anomalies in the Earth's crust. Our hypothetical aliens can then inflate them to the size wanted, and fly conventional aircraft through. No need for He-3 mining.

originally posted by: Sharted
a reply to: mysterioustranger

I agree completely with this. It just confused me a bit because Stanton Friedman seems like a credible source. Yet fusion can't be the solution to interstellar travel as he suggested. I just wish the aliens would show us how to do it. I bet there are plenty of advanced civilizations that got a helping hand from time to time!

fusion may not be suitable for trips beyond ten light years (assuming that we are talking about mature fusion tech and not the first generation stuff we will soon have which wont be much faster than our chemical rockets) but i think you are thinking in terms of a fusion rocket. don't do assume that. fusion does not have to be used as a rocket. it can be used as a power source for more sophisticated schemes of travel. assume a fusion power plant powering a VASIMR drive or another ion drive scheme or even "FTL" space drives or warp drives or for opening wormholes. fusion is an incredible advance just for the power it allows us to play with when designing advanced space propulsion.

originally posted by: 1ofthe9
I'm not a fan of Friedman's ETH fusion propulsion thing. We'd see their radiators, and whenever the aliens would light up the primary drive. The local solar system doesn't seem to be teeming with alien spacecraft, and the phenomena seems localized to Earth...

Personally with regards to ETH, I suspect we are dealing with wormholes produced in the Jovian-Io flux tube and ejected towards Earth (I need to find the period for this...still a work in process before I can produce a thread) where the wormholes (as charged particles) get captured by magnetic anomalies in the Earth's crust. Our hypothetical aliens can then inflate them to the size wanted, and fly conventional aircraft through. No need for He-3 mining.

one would not have to go to exotic places to find wormholes. there are at any given moment trillions of them in every cubic centimeter of space including in your own body. if you can capture a wormhole in the flux tube at jupiter why not capture one closer to home. i am speaking of virtual wormholes in the quantum flux. if one can de-virtualize virtual electrons and positrons as was recently achieved; why not virtual wormholes?

originally posted by: stormbringer1701

originally posted by: Sharted
a reply to: mysterioustranger

I agree completely with this. It just confused me a bit because Stanton Friedman seems like a credible source. Yet fusion can't be the solution to interstellar travel as he suggested. I just wish the aliens would show us how to do it. I bet there are plenty of advanced civilizations that got a helping hand from time to time!

fusion may not be suitable for trips beyond ten light years (assuming that we are talking about mature fusion tech and not the first generation stuff we will soon have which wont be much faster than our chemical rockets) but i think you are thinking in terms of a fusion rocket. don't do assume that. fusion does not have to be used as a rocket. it can be used as a power source for more sophisticated schemes of travel. assume a fusion power plant powering a VASIMR drive or another ion drive scheme or even "FTL" space drives or warp drives or for opening wormholes. fusion is an incredible advance just for the power it allows us to play with when designing advanced space propulsion.

For REAL interstellar work, the research seems to suggest that beamed power schemes beat out rocket type set ups. Check out the sailbeam concept if you are curious.

originally posted by: LogicalRazor

originally posted by: smithjustinb
Here's a thought:

Particles in superposition can be in two states at the same time.

Could you hold a magnetic particle in superposition over a particle that is not in superposition so that the magnetic attraction would be to attract and repel at the same time?

If you could do this, perhaps the particle that is not in superposition could be attracted to the particle that is in superposition while simultaneously repelling it so that they don't attract each other to make contact but the one that is not in superposition "chases" the one that is, and they continue to accelerate with a force that is equal to the strength of the magnetic field.

Again, we don't want more acceleration. That idea was long deemed pointless. Whether its more efficient fuel or particles repelling others at the atomic level.....you still encounter the same issues once you hit at/near light speed. You are smacking head on into matter near-instantaneously (Like a wall) and assuming you don't die, the force needed to accelerate increases exponentially.

The only realistic solution would be to warp space as in the Alcubierre model, or jump large distances in an instant (Wormholes etc).

Perhaps no civilization will ever do this....perhaps our experimentation with gravity, magnetic fields....will lead to humanity achieving time travel. Maybe all the sighting are us ;-)

Its not matter that stops one from accelerating as you reach near light speed. It is inertial mass. that faster you travel the more massive you become and the more massive you become the more power is required to move that mass. at light speed the energy required is infinite. but if you controlled inertia then you could conceivable keep your inertial mass down. and in relativity gravity and inertia are equivalent. that means control of gravity is the same as control of inertia. presumably if you had zero inertial mass increase you could keep right on accelerating through light speed though there are other factors that physicists might argue would step in to stop you such as causality protection postulates and so forth.

WRT matter stopping you that is in the form of collisions. a relativistic collision releases many times more energy than an atomic bomb. not something that you would want happening to the front end of your space ship. but thankfully matter in space is very very very very rare and most of it is smaller than needed to reach atomic levels of energy release. most of it is micron sized or smaller than a typical grain of sand; more like a mote of dust. but these pack the punch of a rifle bullet. but still you can shield something from rifle bullets. and bigger stuff can be dealt with too by passive or active measures. plus space warps appear to negate the need for high end relativistic speed. DR Whites top end speed (10Xlight) is based on a regular speed through normal means at .1 light speed.

originally posted by: 1ofthe9

originally posted by: stormbringer1701

originally posted by: Sharted
a reply to: mysterioustranger

I agree completely with this. It just confused me a bit because Stanton Friedman seems like a credible source. Yet fusion can't be the solution to interstellar travel as he suggested. I just wish the aliens would show us how to do it. I bet there are plenty of advanced civilizations that got a helping hand from time to time!

fusion may not be suitable for trips beyond ten light years (assuming that we are talking about mature fusion tech and not the first generation stuff we will soon have which wont be much faster than our chemical rockets) but i think you are thinking in terms of a fusion rocket. don't do assume that. fusion does not have to be used as a rocket. it can be used as a power source for more sophisticated schemes of travel. assume a fusion power plant powering a VASIMR drive or another ion drive scheme or even "FTL" space drives or warp drives or for opening wormholes. fusion is an incredible advance just for the power it allows us to play with when designing advanced space propulsion.

For REAL interstellar work, the research seems to suggest that beamed power schemes beat out rocket type set ups. Check out the sailbeam concept if you are curious.

I am familiar with beamed systems but my personal opinion is that they would be problematic both for aiming them and forthe fact of the inverse square law. you would need huge power arrays to use one and if you did produce a workable power plant or solar array stations then keeping the beam on target for say 5 years at light years distance would be problematic as would the question of how in the heck do you get back?

originally posted by: stormbringer1701

originally posted by: 1ofthe9

originally posted by: stormbringer1701

originally posted by: Sharted
a reply to: mysterioustranger

I agree completely with this. It just confused me a bit because Stanton Friedman seems like a credible source. Yet fusion can't be the solution to interstellar travel as he suggested. I just wish the aliens would show us how to do it. I bet there are plenty of advanced civilizations that got a helping hand from time to time!

fusion may not be suitable for trips beyond ten light years (assuming that we are talking about mature fusion tech and not the first generation stuff we will soon have which wont be much faster than our chemical rockets) but i think you are thinking in terms of a fusion rocket. don't do assume that. fusion does not have to be used as a rocket. it can be used as a power source for more sophisticated schemes of travel. assume a fusion power plant powering a VASIMR drive or another ion drive scheme or even "FTL" space drives or warp drives or for opening wormholes. fusion is an incredible advance just for the power it allows us to play with when designing advanced space propulsion.

For REAL interstellar work, the research seems to suggest that beamed power schemes beat out rocket type set ups. Check out the sailbeam concept if you are curious.

I am familiar with beamed systems but my personal opinion is that they would be problematic both for aiming them and forthe fact of the inverse square law. you would need huge power arrays to use one and if you did produce a workable power plant or solar array stations then keeping the beam on target for say 5 years at light years distance would be problematic as would the question of how in the heck do you get back?

One way ticket, or else you gotta build a beaming station at the target.

a reply to: Sharted

Sure fusion could. I believe Mr. Friedman was saying Fusion as a source of electricity rather than as a output of exhaust for propulsion.
Fusion would be very efficient for that one would think, plus it wouldn't take up a tone of space for the unit.
Mr Friedman already worked on fusion rockets and energy cells using fusion that took up the space of a semi truck trailer in size and produced enough electricity to power a towns energy needs. and this was back in the 60's.
Those systems he worked on were classified and must still be classified since they aren't in the public domain still..

Imagine what they have developed since then..

originally posted by: Shadow22
a reply to: Sharted

Sure fusion could. I believe Mr. Friedman was saying Fusion as a source of electricity rather than as a output of exhaust for propulsion.
Fusion would be very efficient for that one would think, plus it wouldn't take up a tone of space for the unit.
Mr Friedman already worked on fusion rockets and energy cells using fusion that took up the space of a semi truck trailer in size and produced enough electricity to power a towns energy needs. and this was back in the 60's.
Those systems he worked on were classified and must still be classified since they aren't in the public domain still..

Imagine what they have developed since then..

Wait. Can you source Friedman's claims regarding working fusion power? Especially the compact and portable bit. Ironically that's what Skunkworks has promised to deliver in a few years.

originally posted by: NoRulesAllowed

originally posted by: EnPassant
a reply to: Sharted

Hynek suggested that they travel here via the astral plane.

Hello, do you have a link or citation?

Not because I am skeptical, rather because I think it's actually plausible once a civilization mastered space/time...the rest is only semantics. Eg. "dimensions", "planes", "realities" even. Otherwise I agree with OP, "they" do not use any conventional drive of any sorts, "fusion" is still just thinking within our science's limitations.

"A June, 1976 published interview in FATE Magazine No. 315, Hynek had a lot to say: "...(Life in the universe) it does not follow that this explains UFOS in the sense of nuts-and-bolts hardware which is as far as most scientists are willing to go....(why) done entirely on the physical plane?....communication and exploration....not in the ordinary sense....There are other planes of existence ___ the astral plane, the etheric plane and so forth....that space and time are essentially interchangeable. Suppose it was possible to travel in time rather than in space...The new puzzle pieces are being given to us by the whole parapsychological scene ___ ESP, telepathy, the Uri Geiler phenomena, psychic healing and particularly psychic surgery....They clearly are parts of another jigsaw puzzle...there's going to have to be an interface between these two pictures and this is part of that psychic revolution....This relates to the whole UFO picture; I have come to believe UFOs are part of the larger paranormal picture which has two aspects...physical effects occur apparently without physical causes....'psychic construct' is a loaded term....modern UFO investigators tend to slough it off....doesn't belong in our UFO wave. But it does...related to other paranormal phenomena and possibly is part of a slow conditioning process....this psychic construct has the ability to imitate, camouflage or mimic...if you once talk about consciousness and intelligence existing apart from protoplasm....it has paranormal aspects but certainly but certainly it has very real physical aspects...We haven't come up with an answer. People always seem to want answers and I keep telling them, look, it's a research problem. In research you don't know the answers."

Link

In my estimation they are alien spirits from another world but they can also, like human beings, have physical bodies.

a reply to: Sharted

Friedman is a physicist and thinks in these terms. Strieber said our space program has "lead feet". We need to go beyond simple horse-and-cart technology...

originally posted by: data5091
Just as I believe there is a wide variety of alien life out there, some more advanced than others, fusion drive may be used by some of the aliens, and there is most likely way more exotic forms of propulsion being used by others, possibly even some we haven't even thought of, or mentioned. I also think its likely there is something like wormholes out there which are used to vastly shorten travel time and distance....

i have questions on wormholes.

how to you get them to go where you need/want?

i say just separate time from space. easy. lol.

is that what a wormhole or warp speed does?

originally posted by: tsingtao

originally posted by: data5091
Just as I believe there is a wide variety of alien life out there, some more advanced than others, fusion drive may be used by some of the aliens, and there is most likely way more exotic forms of propulsion being used by others, possibly even some we haven't even thought of, or mentioned. I also think its likely there is something like wormholes out there which are used to vastly shorten travel time and distance....

i have questions on wormholes.

how to you get them to go where you need/want?

That's easy. well easier than you think. a principle at first proposed to "forbid" ftl via wormholes turns out to do everything you need in order to steer the things to where you want to go.

the principle of cosmic back reaction was born partly in physicist's dislike of the idea of wormholes as a means of travel. but the actual mechanisms are theoretically sound. according to the principle anything you do to one end manifests itself at the other end. so if you run a line of force through the worm hole one end will have a positive charge and the other end will have the other type of charge. with magnetism this means the ends of the wormhole act as monopoles. but this principle applies to anything you do to the wormhole.

long story short; you can create momentum at the other end by chucking mass through it.

the easiest cite for this that i have is a Q&A session at the end of a presentation on the Mach/Woodward principle and absurdly benign wormhole travel By Professor Emeritus of the department of Physics at Washington University John Kramer at the 2013 Starship Symposium .

video------> www.youtube.com...

the Q&A session at the end is the easiest way to find the relavent material but the whole video is very informative.