How will the world remember America?

well we are not gone yet, lol

We are people from all over the planet, diverse, just trying to get by, come down of your high horses, we aint the worse thing to happen to this planet

a reply to: crazyewok

Now that is something we can all agree with, I am sure.

It will make for some very interesting chapters of future history books!

originally posted by: Wrabbit2000
a reply to: crazyewok

Now that is something we can all agree with, I am sure.

It will make for some very interesting chapters of future history books!

Well to be honest it already has got some interesting chapters!

Reading up on your civil war at the moment! Thats one interesting if not brutal episode. If it was not for the slavery Id feel sorry for the confederates

a reply to: crazyewok

Oh, don't let Slavery be your defining term for that piece of history. It wasn't then and it's become that by social pressure. Not reality. If Slavery were THE cause of the civil war? The Union's Commanding General would't have been a slave owner himself ...among many to share that dubious distinction and give lie to the idea that was a sole or even core purpose.

After all..The north wasn't a high labor, high cost cropland. It was industrial turning to the Ind. Revolution to come. The south needed that labor (however evil their methods) and they got it ..all to the delight of the North for a good long time of "buying...while not asking too much about origins or methods", I'd imagine.

Just figured I'd toss that in, as it's become something of an amusement now to get into a class that covers it to see instructors invariably ask "How many know the Civil War was about slavery?" to see hands sadly rise ...to then be told that was about seeing how many had much to learn from material. (I never get tired of seeing demonstrations like that...it's entertaining as much as sad for the #'s.)

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

O of course I know it was far more than that. slavery was just a catalyst.

Its why I sort of sympathies with the confederates as apart from slavery I can certainly align myself with some of there ideals. A in someways some of America problems are a result of the North winning.

I can also see how the confrontation was also fight between traditional farming and plantation style of life and the industrial revolution of the north. A very one sides fight. the fact the south lasted so long speaks to the skill and bravery of the men who fought for them.

Also the battles were horrendous! You suffered like us in the Crimea, using modern weapons while using old tactics.

a reply to: crazyewok

Your words mean a lot to hear. Perhaps because I so seldom hear them from my fellow Americans outside of being at a re-enactment or in the deep south with those who have family history.

I agree though. The Confederate States of America were populated by a proud and brave people. They'd better have been, after all, they were Americans too!

(and..if I don't say it, it'll get brought up to make a huge issue of by someone.. so.. yeah, proud and brave doesn't negate the horrors of slavery. There is my obligatory balance to say anything nice.. lol)

originally posted by: crazyewok

Ok my perpective is US solders are macho talking cowards who would rather massacre civilians and pick on weak targets than do real fighting?

Sound fair?

Semper fudge.

(Ok I dont actually think that)

To know that there is little strategic worth does not minimize the individual effort or sacrifice.

Though the Brits hit 10k at their peak and had about 5k last year with seeing none this year they are a much larger force then the next international force.

With that said it has all been a political statement more than anything else. The Brits did actually for a couple of years have responsibility for one region and that is where they lost most of their 400 combat fatalities. The 4 or 5 years before that they had about 5 fatalities, and also very few after that time they had the region.

So what we have is very little actual engagement before and after their regional responsibilities, all other coalition forces have not had much if a roll at
all other than just being there.

I never said their soldiers were crap, just that their countries didn't send them there to actually fight, but to play some political game.

My personal observation has been that Americans has been at all the foward operating bases and the vast majority of the coalition forces have spent there time at the main bases.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Well that a operational Issue.

Still the UK did do a far share of fighting when it did have operational control.

Unit deployments before or after not down to me or you. So we cant sit in judgement and say who should have done more.

But I will admit the UK was the only country that really put forward troops for front line combat. I wont argue that. The other country there were really a token. Though France and Poland did use its special forces.

originally posted by: Wrabbit2000

Your words mean a lot to hear. Perhaps because I so seldom hear them from my fellow Americans outside of being at a re-enactment or in the deep south with those who have family history.

I agree though. The Confederate States of America were populated by a proud and brave people. They'd better have been, after all, they were Americans too!

(and..if I don't say it, it'll get brought up to make a huge issue of by someone.. so.. yeah, proud and brave doesn't negate the horrors of slavery. There is my obligatory balance to say anything nice.. lol)

Exactly and many in the confederates were not fan of slavery either as Slaves took jobs away from the poor white Americans. So confederate does not = Evil slave owner, and may Yankees as you have mentioned owned slaves or had done in the past.


Even Lincon wasn't exactly a fan of blacks....

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

To add as well its a shame about the slvery in a 2nd way.

If it the confeds had made moves even superficial to remove it I think the UK and France would have allied up. As that was one of the things holding us back.

Royal Navy would have obliterated the Yankee blockade and set up a new one in the North and our industry could have made up for the lack in the south, you would have ended up with better guns than the north. And a few hardened French and British units from the Crimea would have been handy, especial a siege of Sevastopol seasoned unit of Royal engineers at Petesburg. Plus Crimea military surgeons would have been handy.

a reply to: crazyewok

It must really tick you guys off Churchill's mother was American, and he asked the US for help. I don't remember contribution even being part of the conversation, it was alldaylong that brought up the fact you didn't need the US to help in defeating the Nazi's. Now you are on the same track. I really don't know what the contributions from both sides were I wasn't there. But from what little I know I would say Britain was more than likely a greater contribution. The Brits pretty much provided transportation on D-Day. Although we both lost almost the same amount of people. To insinuate American's entry into the war wasn't necessary is pretty much fantasy.

From one of your own sites. d-dayrevisited.co.uk...

459 Billions gallons of gasoline
9.7 billion rounds of aircraft ammo.
7.9 million bombs dropped
808,471 Aircraft engines
799,972 Propellers
299,230 aircraft.
These are hardly numbers reflective of our unnecessary entry into WWII.

"I said we had beaten back the planned German invasion of britian not liberated the rest of europe.."
How does one beat back a plan?

"Erm hate to break it tooo you but capitalism pre dates America."
As many things do, we are a young country by many standards, maybe I should be more selective in my phraseology "brought to you" means what we did with it as compared to anyone else in the history of the world. The general theme here seems to be alldaylongs statement of we invented the computer, this sort of true but what did you do with it? With the help of the poles you were able to break the enigma codes. A incredibly worthy endeavor. What the US did with the computer was change the face of the world.

"O and of course america has given more..... its economy is 10x bigger! Hell the USA should be giving 10X more to charity."

Now you sound like some minorities here, we owe it to them for some government contrived division between citizens. Now you are dividing the US with other countries just like this knucklehead government now. Since when do we owe anyone charity? Why is it our responsibility to be so charitable? With a little research you will find it's much more than 10X.

When you're ready to advance your education on the Civil War, seriously I will put you up, and personally drive you to Gettysburg and give you the nickel tour for a couple of days. We can even go through the confederate museum in Richmond, and visit downtown Williamsburg, driving slow 5 minutes from the house. York Town is another 5 minutes past Williamsburg, and Well you can almost throw a rock to James Town. Then you can give this old man that history lesson on the UK and their contribution to WWII over a very fine period meal in a tavern built in the 1700's.

a reply to: crazyewok
I live in Colorado,we LOVE our guns and ..that OTHER libation.

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
a reply to: crazyewok
I live in Colorado,we LOVE our guns and ..that OTHER libation.

Got no issue with guns mate.

Its the freedom in colorado I like the sound off.


To be honnest I find it hard to paint all your states with the same brush. They are all so diffrent.

New york
I find it a totalitarian oppresive hell. I felt really uncomfortable there.

Illionois chicargo
Its all right. Seemed no diffrent to home. Which is why I never took the 2 jobs, why move 6000 miles away to live in a place like home? Haha

California
Never been there but thought id say why I never took the job in san deago. Well to be blunt the thought of a state that can collaspse on me in one huge EQ of doom is not too appealing, plus freinds say the air quailty not to good.

Florida:
Liked it there, things seemed relaxed, everyone freindly, I enjoy it there. Would not go out my way to live there permently but if a contract had come up id have been tempted.


Fact is there are states that give China a run for its money in tyranny and other states if not part of the USA would give new a zealend a run for its money in freedom, same with standard of living.

originally posted by: Ahabstar
What will America be remember for? Showing the world that you do not have to live as subjects. That if you are willing to gamble and get some help along the way, you too can throw off oppression. And America was there to do that for some other countries when they asked for that help. But that was the past, now we knell before our own internal oppressors from the Federal, to State, to Local governments and on lower scales such as drug dealers and common street thugs in our cities.

America's heyday and wealth was the 1950's-1960's. The post war reconstruction of Europe relied heavily on America's exporting of goods, materials and military protection under NATO agreements. Hence Western Europe was able to spend a portion of their accumulated wealth to rebuild with modern infrastructure.

LOL!!!

Wow, is that written in American history books? The Marshall plan had America lending European countries money at crippling rates with a proviso they spent a large proportion of it on goods from America - basically, America got its money back twice. Hoover did fairly much the same thing in WWI.

If you look at that from the perspective of a cold hearted capitalist then it's obviously an excellent money earner - not sure it earned many friends in the long run though and any attempt to make it seem like it was altruistic is somewhat deluded (although I'm not saying you personally made such a claim).

originally posted by: Donkey_Dean

originally posted by: Kryties
a reply to: simsumre

As someone who is not American, I (and many others) view America as the worlds bully. America is so interested only in whats good for America that it has come at the expense of the rest of the world. The rest of us are sick and tired of hearing about how good "The Great and Almighty America" is when we look in at you guys in bewilderment at the way you treat your own citizens and the rest of the world with utter disregard for anything but your own selfish needs. The "American" drive to be successful at all costs, and the each man for himself mentality, has created a complete mess out of what was once a promising and great country.

Don't even get me started on the subject of Americans and their guns either, it's completely hypocritical to suggest America needs it's guns to fight "tyranny" when that's exactly whats been occurring for the last couple of decades and yet no American has done a damn thing about it. I'm almost starting to think that you guys should be allowed to keep your gun laws the way they are so as to thin out the population of America a bit (through ever-increasing mass shootings) so perhaps there would be less Americans to wave the flag and contribute to screwing the world up.

You would be hard-pressed to find too many 'non-Americans' who don't think that America has had it's day and needs to fade away.

Be allowed to keep our guns? We didn't ask for permission friend! We are gonna keep em like it or not.

Very simply we are interested in unrest to better our position as the largest energy exporter in the world. Not yet there but 2020 is the goal. We have no interest in a stable Iraq, Stable Russian supply routes etc.. etc.. ISIS just needed more hardware for the Syria struggle plain and simple and with our training and logistical support they acquired the same.

It will happen and any who challenge it could just end up glowing in the dark! America will be remembered as the power house that saw mankind to the stars and beyond! Most of the world as serfs! You included!

You would have to pay in flesh to disarm the American populous! You may change some minds, and have the hippies out on the streets but in the end we would burry em all friend! You don't want a USA without an armed populous. If you think it is bad now, a powerless populous would see the whole world in flames. The American populous constitutes the largest armed force on the planet and this keeps the corruption in check somewhat! What you see in the world today though is by design and America is not alone in these endeavors! If you belong to an EU nation then you are just as bloody!

We don't just have little pop guns either millions of us have title II arms, 100% legal here! Well those made before 1986 anyhow. If your little country is feeling froggy jump!

You aint got the balls Son! Get back to work!

Just to clarify here: This post was made as a parody of sorts! I am pro gun, but the thought of a US in flames is abhorrent to me and I am ashamed of the actions my country has been inflicting on many in the world as of late. We love our hippies and would never want to see any hurt etc.. We love our Guns too but the only face off we will see here is a legal one..

Let peace and freedom ring!

a reply to: uncommitted

The US definitely exploited the situation of being the only industrialized country virtually untouched by WWII. Americans point to that time frame as the golden age of US manufacturing and ask why can't we return to that? They don't consider that the vast majority of those consumer good was exported to Europe.

In the early 1970's there was a company that made washers and dryers in Indiana and branded them as Whirlpool, Kenmore, Maytag a couple others including some low brand names. Their capacity of manufacturing was so efficient that they could make all the washers and dryers that JC Penny would sell nation-wide for a year in about 2 weeks and then start on the order for Sears which would be the next two weeks. Basically they could make every washer and dryer that would be sold in the US for the year in about 2 months or so. The workers didn't understand why the plant was closing the doors after doing so well. They didn't understand that the US couldn't sell as much as they could produce and that the rest of the world was making their own locally because higher priority tasks were completed such as rebuilding their own factories, roads, power grids, etc.

So from the 1970's onwards, the US manufacturing base has slumped. Not because there isn't a demand for products, just that we can't purchase at the rate that we can produce for the company to remain profitable year round. Sure, a smaller plant with a smaller production scale would seem to work, but the cost of the final item would be too high priced to compete in an open market. Of course it doesn't help that final assembly of all "US brands" of washers and dryers are now down in Mexico and imported back into the US for distribution. Which is why every large US trucking company has a terminal in Laredo, Texas.

originally posted by: MarlinGrace

I don't think there is any confusion with me or anyone else, your hate filled jealousy is very evident in your post. Like some kind of British bulldog bark, bark, bark, then scurry over and try to bite something with a flat face.

Now I know for certain not to take anything you say with anything more than a grain of salt.

Thanks for proving my point though.

originally posted by: MarlinGrace

It must really tick you guys off Churchill's mother was American

Not really? Why would it?

originally posted by: MarlinGrace
, and he asked the US for help.

And? Bush asked for Blair help....twice.......you even asked the UK for help in vietnam (we had our own problems so said no).

Allies and friends ask each other for help. Even if your likely to win you still try an get help and spread the burden. When fighting a war, especially one of survival you cant have too much help. It not a sign of weakness, just common sense.

originally posted by: MarlinGrace
I don't remember contribution even being part of the conversation, it was alldaylong that brought up the fact you didn't need the US to help in defeating the Nazi's. Now you are on the same track. I really don't know what the contributions from both sides were I wasn't there. But from what little I know I would say Britain was more than likely a greater contribution. The Brits pretty much provided transportation on D-Day. Although we both lost almost the same amount of people.

Well it was about the same I think. The stats show a similar military loss/contribution. Only thing the UK got the US didnt was the civilian and industrial losses.

originally posted by: MarlinGrace
To insinuate American's entry into the war wasn't necessary is pretty much fantasy.

Never said that.

I only said the UK managed to fend of the NAZI's before you guys jumped in. We defended our home land without you but didn't defeat the axis. US played a big part especially in the pacific theater in the defeat.

As I keep saying, team effort.

originally posted by: MarlinGrace
"I said we had beaten back the planned German invasion of britian not liberated the rest of europe.."
How does one beat back a plan?

Erm you destroy any capability they have of carrying out that plan.

Germany wanted to subjugate the UK. They failed. That was before the US entry.

As I said no we didn't completely defeat the Axis with the USA and likely wouldn't have. But we did successfully beat there invasion back on our own.


And though the UK would not have likley been able to march on Berlin or Tokyo with USA and USSR help. The USA would not have been able to do the same without UK or USSR help either.

Rather than the USA demanding sole thanks maybe we should all be thanking each other ?

originally posted by: MarlinGrace
Now you sound like some minorities here, we owe it to them for some government contrived division between citizens. Now you are dividing the US with other countries just like this knucklehead government now. Since when do we owe anyone charity? Why is it our responsibility to be so charitable? With a little research you will find it's much more than 10X.

That was not my meaning at all.

What im saying with a population 5 times bigger and a economy 10x bigger if UK citizens are as generous as USA citizen your contributions are going to be bigger.

Thats not saying USA are more generous than UK citizens. Its saying the USA is a bigger country.

My point is the UK gives just as such to charity relative to our population and economy which is smaller.

originally posted by: MarlinGrace
When you're ready to advance your education on the Civil War, seriously I will put you up, and personally drive you to Gettysburg and give you the nickel tour for a couple of days. We can even go through the confederate museum in Richmond, and visit downtown Williamsburg, driving slow 5 minutes from the house. York Town is another 5 minutes past Williamsburg, and Well you can almost throw a rock to James Town. Then you can give this old man that history lesson on the UK and their contribution to WWII over a very fine period meal in a tavern built in the 1700's.

Now that sounds like fun

a reply to: crazyewok

I see we actually agree on many things.

Most importantly we agree on:
"Rather than the USA demanding sole thanks maybe we should all be thanking each other ? "

Let me be the first, thanks very much.

When you're ready for Gettysburg, just let me know.

Just a couple of pictures from my last visit there..



The Pennsylvania Memorial

originally posted by: MarlinGrace
a reply to: crazyewok

I see we actually agree on many things.

Most importantly we agree on:
"Rather than the USA demanding sole thanks maybe we should all be thanking each other ? "

Let me be the first, thanks very much.

When you're ready for Gettysburg, just let me know.

Just a couple of pictures from my last visit there..

The Pennsylvania Memorial

And thanks back to the USA, Australia, Canada, India and even Russia


And nice pictures. Is Fort Sumpter in South Carolina still standing? O and you have any old Ironclades preserved? I have seen a number of UK ships from that era but love to see some old American ships, I hear you had some great shipbuilding skills at least on your smaller vessels.

Shame im tied up to my neck with my new business.