Knights Templar asking vatican for apology...

I still don't believe the Order survived in its Original form long after it dissolution. There must have been a dozen organisations over the Centuries who have claimed direct ascendancy from the Templars. But there is no historically verifiable proof whatsoever that they survived these 700 odd years.
If people are looking for Knightly Orders with connections to the Templars then they should look

Here

or

Here

They may call themselves the Knights Templar and uphold the same ideals but that does not mean they are the direct continuation of the original Templars, just a new Order under the same name.
I would love for this story of an unbroken line of Templars to be true, but the sad fact is without historical varifiable fact then the claim of this orginisation to the title Knights Templar is suspect. Perhaps they will demand the return of "their" lands taken by the Church, now that would be interesting.

[edit on 3-12-2004 by Janus]

Originally posted by Janus
I still don't believe the Order survived in its Original form long after it dissolution. There must have been a dozen organisations over the Centuries who have claimed direct ascendancy from the Templars. But there is no historically verifiable proof whatsoever that they survived these 700 odd years.

OK I will give you that there is no solid proof, but as we witness so often here on ATS, the lack of proof means nothing. Actually it means that there was a conspiracy to hide the evidence, and EVERYONE is in on it.

No seriously, if you think about it, probably all Fraternal orders have some kind of link to the Templars. There were lots who escaped. I'm not saying that they are definitely holding documents that prove the unbroken line of Grand Masters, in fact, most of the reading I've done says nothing of Jaque DeMolay appointing a successor before his death (besides that the Grand Masters were elected by the Brethren). Most accounts actually dismiss the possibility. There is a possibility, though, however small.

They may call themselves the Knights Templar and uphold the same ideals but that does not mean they are the direct continuation of the original Templars, just a new Order under the same name.
I would love for this story of an unbroken line of Templars to be true, but the sad fact is without historical varifiable fact then the claim of this orginisation to the title Knights Templar is suspect. Perhaps they will demand the return of "their" lands taken by the Church, now that would be interesting.

Look I'm not saying one way or the other. I am of the opinion that the SMOTJ (even if they don't have an unbroken line and it's just some guy's brainchild to capitalize on the name) does good works throughout the world, mostly behind the scenes, just like the Knights of Malta (the average joe probably has never heard of either).

The point is, the RCC did the original Templars wrong, and no matter who is requesting that it be done, I think they should at least admit that they were wrong. We'll probably be waiting for a long, long time though.


[edit on 12/3/04 by The Axeman]

The point is, the RCC did the original Templars wrong, and no matter who is requesting that it be done, I think they should at least admit that they were wrong. We'll probably be waiting for a long, long time though.

I agree with you completely, they were wronged by the Church and should receive a Papal pardon at the very least. As has been mentioned there is a precedence for forgiveness after the fact ( not that the Templars did anything wrong in the first place ) But if the Templars are forgiven by the Church then so should the Cathars, who were also cruelly suppressed by the Church in a similar way.
I'm not pulling people down for using the Templar name or taking anything away from their good deeds, it just causes a lot of confusion with people who don't know much about the Templars and Crusades in general. It encourages the Myth but doesn't help explain it.



[edit on 3-12-2004 by Janus]

Originally posted by Janus
As has been mentioned there is a precedence for forgiveness after the fact ( not that the Templars did anything wrong in the first place ) But if the Templars are forgiven by the Church then so should the Cathars, who were also cruelly suppressed by the Church in a similar way.

I agree wholeheartedly. The list of people or groups that the Church should "forgive" would be a very long list indeed. Hell, anyone who wasn't the Church's idea of Christian were persecuted and tortured for the entertainment of the mob.

"Either denounce your faith and accept ours or you do not deserve to live" was pretty much their policy back then. Sad, very sad.

The thing that gets me most is they were murdering people in the name of God. Talk about heresy...

Da Vinci Code

It seems as though the Templars are becoming more popular by the hour, a movie of the Da Vinci Code is in the works starring Tom Hanks and Directed by Ron Howard.
I'm sure it will be an excellent film but its just another perpetuation of the Templar Mythos. But Hell when did fact mean anything to Hollywood?

EDIT:Forgot to add link

[edit on 3-12-2004 by Janus]

I became interested in the Templars when I started researching Freemasonry and never looked back. I especially liked the story of Jaque DeMolay. Haven't read the Da Vinci Code yet, but it's on the list.

We digress... Has it been established here exactly which order is appealing to the Vatican for this apology? The only "Templar lodges" that I know of are the SMOTJ. There are Masonic Knights Templar, but they claim no connection to the original, they only use the name and principles of the Crusaders, so it can't be them, although IMHO the RCC owes Freemasons something along the lines of an apology as well.

It seems to be a Templar Order from Herefordshire in the UK who are claiming they are the real deal. I read somewhere that there was a mass held for a group claiming to be the Templars in Rome by a Catholic Priest, the first in 700 years apparently but ive lost the link. Not sure if the two groups of Templars are the same though. The Vatican seems to be taking it seriously, so perhaps the proof i crave has already been provided to the Vatican?

I found this so far... I'll keep digging...

theinsider.org...

In the article it says the letter was return addressed to: Grand Preceptory, PO Box 225, Hertford, Hertfordshire SG14 1WX, England.

I�m not completely sure, but I think this may actually be the SMOTJ. I'm still looking... There has to be more that 2 news stories on this, it will be a big deal to history buffs if the Vatican actually does what has been asked of them...

Originally posted by The Axeman
the Knights of Malta have been around ever since the 12th century. They were originally known as the Hospitallers,

Ah, my mistake, I had thought that they were supposed to by the templar, not the hospitallers

I wonder why you are so quick to put down the idea that the Templars as an order may have survived by going underground. I see it as entirely possible and even probable.

I see it as possible, but improbable.

I say who's to say they are NOT the original order?

I thought you had said SMOTJ is the Hospitallers?

What if the documents and the unbroken line of Grand Masters is real?

Like I said, if they have this and can/are willing to show it, then great. DO they? Will they?

Would they bee any less Templars that their Brothers before them because they don't fight bloody wars with Muslims anymore?

Well, in a sense yes. Take Operative Masonry and 'Intellectual' Freemasonry. How many freemasons are trained as actual working architecural stone cutters and building planners? I mean, the Free and Accepted Masons are not a worker's guild anymore. The Knights Templar, if they still exist, aren't Knights and have nothing to do with the Temple anymore either. I agree that they can and probably should use the distinguished old names to remember their roots, but there is some difference between the two.

[edit on 3-12-2004 by Nygdan]

originally posted by Ngydan
I thought you had said SMOTJ is the Hospitallers?

The Sovereign Military Order of the Temple of Jerusalem (or Knights Templar) are the ones who claim to be a continuation of the original Templar order.

The Sovereign Military Order of Malta (or Knights of Malta) is the order that is a continuation of the original Order of the Hospitallers of St. John.

Well, in a sense yes. Take Operative Masonry and 'Intellectual' Freemasonry. How many freemasons are trained as actual working architecural stone cutters and building planners? I mean, the Free and Accepted Masons are not a worker's guild anymore. The Knights Templar, if they still exist, aren't Knights and have nothing to do with the Temple anymore either. I agree that they can and probably should use the distinguished old names to remember their roots, but there is some difference between the two.

Point well taken... I hadn't thought of it that way.

OK, one more thought... One of the SMOTJ's stated missions is to help people to visit the Holy Land (Jerusalem) and to maintain a Christian presence there, which is more in line with the Knights Templar's *original* purpose (before they became a military force) than that of the Speculative Masonry vs operative masonry.



[edit on 12/3/04 by The Axeman]

Text

To hear someone say that the church simply "punished" the order for "refusing to disband" makes my stomach turn.

especially when the "order to disband" didnt come until 5 years after the arrests and torture started. on this subject the templars were priests/clergy
and as such by the law of the church exempt from torture. i expect the actions of the church in torturing them for 7 years could be construed as breech of contract.

The best part is that the Templars succeded in getting away with most of their treasure, so Philip never did get his hands on it.

most if not all of their records also vanished.

Well there ya go.

check the processes in scotland for years after. several hunderd years later KSJ was still litigating over lands with familys of former templars

As far as I know, the organization isn't faithful to the original (which prohibited contact with ANYTHING female, including birds (no eggs!), horses, etc

there have been some documents found that indicate that there was a
Templar "sister" order, and an appendent order that included married people.


you also have the fact that in at least 2 places Austria ( ithink) and Protugal
the Templars were aquitted and simply changed their names, in Portugal
under the protection of the King. In other cases they joined other orders such as The Teutonic Knights. Also as previously noted there is No record
whatever of those serving with the fleet or what became of them, either men
or equipment

an interesting aside, at this very time there was an influx of arms and equipment into Scotland. The inventory of one Irish Templary seized at this
time lists all weapons seized. 1 sword (broken) , and 1 shield ( needing repair). thats it.

[edit on 3-12-2004 by stalkingwolf]

FURTHER READING:-

"The revelation will put pressure on the present Pope, who has asked the Muslim world for forgiveness for the Crusades, to apologise for the persecution of one of the main Crusading orders as well. "

The Times (30 March 2002) - Vatican file shows pope pardoned massacred Knights
www.timesonline.co.uk...

SEE ALSO:-

The Times (29 November 2004) - The last crusade of the Templars, page 13.
www.timesonline.co.uk...

The Independent (29 November 2004) - Knights Templar seek papal apology for 700 years of persecution.
news.independent.co.uk...

Originally posted by chief_counsellor
How can an organization that doesn't exist ask for an apology?

After the Templar were dismantled alot of them went to Portugal and started up The Order Of Christ, if they are still around they cuold ask for an apology.


Take Care, Vix