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Is The Ukrainian Army Using White Phosphorus on Its Own Citizens?

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posted on Jun, 15 2014 @ 11:58 AM
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Muslims? Do not mix ethnicity with religion.
So you mean that instead they should have separate countries like Chcechenya, Tatarstan or Dagestan?

Maybe they should be asked in internationally monitored referendum what they think about Russian rule?




posted on Jun, 15 2014 @ 03:16 PM
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If the Ukranians are using Willy Pete on their own citizenry consider who set the precedent: In the 1980s The US gave both Apache helicopters and White Phosphorus to Saddam Hussein prior to the first Gulf war. Saddam used WP against the Kurds killing thousands--Dick Cheney himself defended Saddams right to quell his own citizenry then later stated it was a war crime when Saddam threatened to tie Iraqi oil to the Euro and not the dollar (preceding our invasion and accusations of chemical weapons) Rumsfeld also defended Hussein at the time.

Fast forward to Fallujah in 2004. The US military admitted to using WP against the civilians of Fallujah after forcing men , women and children to return to their homes then firing on them--over a thousand were asphyxiated.

IF the Ukranians are using WP against their own--we have NO ROOM to talk or squawk--they learned it from the best , right?
edit on 15-6-2014 by THEqueenbee because: time frame needed



posted on Jun, 15 2014 @ 03:40 PM
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a reply to: cosmonova




Austria, Denmark, Finland, Bulgaria, Slovakia, Norway, Ireland, Croatia, Georgia, Moldova, Lithuania, Albania....,


And how many of those countries have had problems with Russia in the past, some more recent than others?



posted on Jun, 15 2014 @ 05:00 PM
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originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: cosmonova




Austria, Denmark, Finland, Bulgaria, Slovakia, Norway, Ireland, Croatia, Georgia, Moldova, Lithuania, Albania....,


And how many of those countries have had problems with Russia in the past, some more recent than others?


do not follow what you are saying. My point was that ethnic Russians in Novorussiya outnumber total population of those countries and that gives them a legitimate right to determine their future the way they did with recent referendum. Willy Wonka and the gang cannot stop that, no mater how hard they try. They can shell all hospitals, schools, kindergartens, houses they want. Not working.



posted on Jun, 16 2014 @ 02:34 AM
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originally posted by: cosmonova

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: cosmonova




Austria, Denmark, Finland, Bulgaria, Slovakia, Norway, Ireland, Croatia, Georgia, Moldova, Lithuania, Albania....,


And how many of those countries have had problems with Russia in the past, some more recent than others?


do not follow what you are saying. My point was that ethnic Russians in Novorussiya outnumber total population of those countries and that gives them a legitimate right to determine their future the way they did with recent referendum. Willy Wonka and the gang cannot stop that, no mater how hard they try. They can shell all hospitals, schools, kindergartens, houses they want. Not working.
OK just one question - whether non-Russian population in Russia have also the same right to self determination? I mean especially those in Caucasus?



posted on Jun, 16 2014 @ 02:56 AM
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a reply to: cosmonova

Ethnic Russian were only more than 50% of the population in Crimea, of all the Ukrainian territories, and that because of the deportations and naturalization of Russian there after WW2.

www.rferl.org... html



posted on Jun, 16 2014 @ 08:01 AM
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originally posted by: Shadow1024

originally posted by: cosmonova

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: cosmonova




Austria, Denmark, Finland, Bulgaria, Slovakia, Norway, Ireland, Croatia, Georgia, Moldova, Lithuania, Albania....,


And how many of those countries have had problems with Russia in the past, some more recent than others?


do not follow what you are saying. My point was that ethnic Russians in Novorussiya outnumber total population of those countries and that gives them a legitimate right to determine their future the way they did with recent referendum. Willy Wonka and the gang cannot stop that, no mater how hard they try. They can shell all hospitals, schools, kindergartens, houses they want. Not working.
OK just one question - whether non-Russian population in Russia have also the same right to self determination? I mean especially those in Caucasus?


But how is that relevant? The Caucasus and Crimea are different geographical locations, different cultures, different actors, different conflicts at different times. It has little bearing on current events.

And on top of that, Russia is the regional empire that is reacquiring land that its ethnic citizens live on, in former USSR territory, in situations of political instability and insecurity on the ground. Where would Chechnya and Dagestan go to? Georgia? Yeah right.



posted on Jun, 16 2014 @ 08:45 AM
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a reply to: Vovin




And on top of that, Russia is the regional empire that is reacquiring land that its ethnic citizens live on, in former USSR territory,


Notice the key words here...former USSR territories?

Now as far as I can tell Russia has no authority over these territories and just because some speak Russian that isn't an excuse to enter another countries boundaries an do what they are doing in Ukraine.

So should the US be expecting a visit from Vlad sometime in the future as there are ethnic Russians that live here, and I am sure they have a beef about something happening to them caused by the gov't?

I mean if we go by what Russia gave as an excuse to enter Ukraine. then every country that has ethnic Russians living within it's border should be seeing Vlad soon.



posted on Jun, 16 2014 @ 09:09 AM
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originally posted by: Vovin

originally posted by: Shadow1024

originally posted by: cosmonova

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: cosmonova




Austria, Denmark, Finland, Bulgaria, Slovakia, Norway, Ireland, Croatia, Georgia, Moldova, Lithuania, Albania....,


And how many of those countries have had problems with Russia in the past, some more recent than others?


do not follow what you are saying. My point was that ethnic Russians in Novorussiya outnumber total population of those countries and that gives them a legitimate right to determine their future the way they did with recent referendum. Willy Wonka and the gang cannot stop that, no mater how hard they try. They can shell all hospitals, schools, kindergartens, houses they want. Not working.
OK just one question - whether non-Russian population in Russia have also the same right to self determination? I mean especially those in Caucasus?


But how is that relevant? The Caucasus and Crimea are different geographical locations, different cultures, different actors, different conflicts at different times. It has little bearing on current events.



And on top of that, Russia is the regional empire that is reacquiring land that its ethnic citizens live on, in former USSR territory, in situations of political instability and insecurity on the ground.
Minor correction: Russia is SENDING MERCENARIES TO CREATE A "situations of political instability and insecurity on the ground" and using this mess to further its conquest.

But indeed those areas were already once conquered by Russia, so everything is OK. Do I get your logic correctly?

"regional empire" - you mean the right of the stronger?


Where would Chechnya and Dagestan go to? Georgia? Yeah right.


No, Georgia is an Eastern Orthodox country. They can build themselves a new country (presumably a federal one) in Caucasus. That's the right of self determination that was so far denied by Russians to Chechens.



posted on Jun, 16 2014 @ 09:33 PM
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originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Vovin




And on top of that, Russia is the regional empire that is reacquiring land that its ethnic citizens live on, in former USSR territory,


Notice the key words here...former USSR territories?

Now as far as I can tell Russia has no authority over these territories and just because some speak Russian that isn't an excuse to enter another countries boundaries an do what they are doing in Ukraine.

So should the US be expecting a visit from Vlad sometime in the future as there are ethnic Russians that live here, and I am sure they have a beef about something happening to them caused by the gov't?

I mean if we go by what Russia gave as an excuse to enter Ukraine. then every country that has ethnic Russians living within it's border should be seeing Vlad soon.



Why do you find it necessary to respond to me in every Ukraine thread I post in, when I do not wish to hold any conversation with you? All you do is troll. Obviously you know the difference between an ethnic group and people who speak a certain language, but you ignore the key difference just to provoke me.



posted on Jun, 16 2014 @ 11:01 PM
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a reply to: Shadow1024

The issue in Ukraine is not ethnicity. It is NATO.

Russia has genuine security concerns that people must acknowledge.

There is massive propaganda against the Russians and Russia in West supported media including this website.

Russia provided cheap gas to Ukraine so long and that too on soft credit terms. Was that because of Russians hated Ukrainians?

The campaign of terror against Russian speaking people run by Ukrainians Nazis cannot be acceptable to any self-respecting person.



posted on Jun, 16 2014 @ 11:04 PM
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a reply to: Shadow1024

Issue is not Russia being a regional empire. This is BS.

The issue is constant increase in a military alliance called NATO that constantly undermines the interests of Asian countries.



posted on Jun, 16 2014 @ 11:06 PM
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edit on 16-6-2014 by GargIndia because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 16 2014 @ 11:06 PM
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It is always Western plan to give a emotional character to every conflict. Massive propaganda is used to mask the realities on the ground.

Same here.

It is unfortunate that some people talking Chechenya here? The Muslims are out of control and will soon consume the Western sphere of influence. Only fools can talk about self determination in Chechenya.

edit on 16-6-2014 by GargIndia because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 17 2014 @ 05:50 AM
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originally posted by: GargIndia
a reply to: Shadow1024

Issue is not Russia being a regional empire. This is BS.


But it is in a way. Western geostrategists know this well enough that they use NATO expansion as a means to illicit confrontation with Russia. Russia has to respond because its cultural and economic borders extend beyond its geopolitical borders.

Any one who thinks Russia is the aggressor here is totally clueless. They see Russian involvement with Ukraine (which it borders and shares culture and trade with) as hostile, but refuse to comment on why the American State Department is not only speaking in place of Kiev's government, but also directing Ukraine's affairs. What business could the USA possibly have with Ukraine if it was not hostile?

The real objectives have already been revealed through actions:

Russia was a key supplier of energy to the European Union. Ukraine was the important pivot because that's where the pipelines went through. Russia was working with the EU to established a free trade pact from Atlantic EU to Pacific Russia.

Then US orchestrates another "colour revolution" in Ukraine and establishes an anti-Russian junta led by oligarchs as ruling Ukraine. USA and Canada sanction Russia. More than coincidence, USA and Canada have been working on a free trade pact with the EU.

Since then, the junta has been tasked with eliminating rebels in east Ukraine, who threaten development of international oil companies fracking the land to replace Russian energy exports to Europe with Ukrainian exports.

Russia has since signed massive energy deals to replace energy exports to Europe with exports to China instead.

Within months, geopolitics in Europe and Asia have radically changed. The USA and Canada have committed to actions to ensure greater economic and strategic alliance with the EU, forcing Russia and China to bond closer together. This will lead to some very interesting changes in the near future, including the return to a bipolar world between East and West.
edit on 17-6-2014 by Vovin because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 17 2014 @ 02:32 PM
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originally posted by: GargIndia
a reply to: Shadow1024

The issue in Ukraine is not ethnicity. It is NATO.

Russia has genuine security concerns that people must acknowledge.

There is massive propaganda against the Russians and Russia in West supported media including this website.

Russia provided cheap gas to Ukraine so long and that too on soft credit terms. Was that because of Russians hated Ukrainians?

The campaign of terror against Russian speaking people run by Ukrainians Nazis cannot be acceptable to any self-respecting person.

Actually Russia offered natural gas more expensive to Ukraine, than to Germany (and you know with Germany the cost should be higher because of longer pipelines and additional transit fees). It indeed lowered it recently, because of risk that pro-Russian Yanukovych was loosing support. Also there was a discount offered for allowing to keep Russian bases on Ukraine soil (Crimea). Does not look extraordinary altruistic.

Hey, this alleged terror exist only in Russian media. Not in real life. I understand that for a Russian is hard to understand that he is an invader, bit that's exactly the situation here.

Before Russian invasion Ukrainians were clearly unwilling to join NATO. Now I think you should be proud of your gov, because there is a chance that this Russian aggression convinced them. There is no campaign against Russian language speaking people, I know from a guy who visited Kiev just after Yanukovych collapse that he heard there Russian more often than Ukrainian, and local people proudly treated whole riots as way of curbing excessive corruption.

Not Russia, but Putin has a security concern here. If Ukrainians can overthrow corrupted oligarchs, what about Russians? There is no risk for Russia as such, actually there is a chance also for you.



posted on Jun, 17 2014 @ 02:42 PM
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originally posted by: GargIndia
It is always Western plan to give a emotional character to every conflict. Massive propaganda is used to mask the realities on the ground.

Same here.

It is unfortunate that some people talking Chechenya here? The Muslims are out of control and will soon consume the Western sphere of influence. Only fools can talk about self determination in Chechenya.
Really doubt this Western sphere. The EU is actually refusing all the time to accept Turkey.

I think that whole talk here about sphere of influence is a bit misunderstanding. When people are given chance to self determination they tend to prefer getting free elections + rule of law + free media. After reaching that they would usually treat nearby democracies rather positively, while more aggressive autocracies (like Russia) with distaste. That may leave a false impression of being within sphere of influence, but they would lean in pro-West alliance rather naturally.



posted on Jun, 18 2014 @ 12:16 AM
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originally posted by: Shadow1024

Not Russia, but Putin has a security concern here. If Ukrainians can overthrow corrupted oligarchs, what about Russians? There is no risk for Russia as such, actually there is a chance also for you.


Overthrowing corrupt oligarchs in Russia? That's what Putin did. Now the state industries that resulted from Putin's anti-oligarchical policies have turned Russia into an energy superpower.



posted on Jun, 19 2014 @ 04:17 PM
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Russian journalist admitted lieing about use of Willie Pete in Ukraine:

The Interpreter Mag



2032 GMT: Radio Svoboda and UNIAN reported today that Russian journalists from the Russian Defense Ministry television channel Zvezda sent a letter of apology to Ukraine’s Channel 5, saying they had lied on Russian TV when they claimed in a 12 June program that the Ukrainian army had bombed the village of Semyonovka near Slavyansk with “white phosphorus” bombs. Their program first led to all of Russia state media making the claim that the same type of bomb used by the US in Iraq was used, and angry demands by the Russian Foreign Ministry for an investigation.


More in the article on the link above.

Time and again Russian propaganda is dismantled and proven as nothing more than fabrications...



posted on Jun, 19 2014 @ 04:30 PM
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a reply to: GargIndia




Massive propaganda is used to mask the realities on the ground.



Wow that sounds very familiar...thinking...thinking...Oh that's right Russian media has been doing that for the whole Ukraine incursion.

And they have been caught so many times it isn't funny, and it just doesn't slow down with them.



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