Why Infinity and the Laws of Thermodynamics supports, if not proves the existence of God.

a reply to: edmc^2

No that is incorrect. No intelligence is needed nor is there a need for guidance or course correction or anything of the sort.

Did you study on Wolframs A new kind of Science???? How about fractals???

The Simple(chaos) can become Complex(organized) all on it's own. It's just something that happens. Fractals are a perfect example. Some values don't produce anything, but there are certain values that for some reason produce infinite and beautiful self similar fractals.

The direction and process is not directed by something else it is inherent from within and simply grows.

originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: edmc^2

If you can prove that there's no need for a first cause to have a CAUSE AND EFFECT then you've proven me wrong. But if you can't then I rest my case. All you're doing from here on is chasing your tail.

Cause and Effect are two different states at two different points of Time. When speaking of the "First Cause" there is no time nor space until the "First Event". Even then No possible measurement can be made until the Next Event happens as that would be the first possible time/space measured between two points. That would then make the "First Cause" also the "First Event" and then leading on to other events which can be measured in relation to the first.

The argument of which was first Cause or Effect is pointless and is nothing but a paradox brought forth because of a breakdown in language. This can be fixed however with logic and math.

Think about the Fibbonacci Series and how it starts:
0 1 1 2 3 5 8 ....(Notice the only double number that happens)

The 1 represents the "First Cause/Effect". The root of the series is 0 and 1 which then starts the series with 1 but must also include the first 1 to reach the next number. The first is both the Cause and the First Effect of the series and must in fact be included but is in fact still there before you even start the series in motion.

Personally calling something the "First Cause" doesn't help because people like to attribute Causes as having intention. It should be changed to "First Event" or even just "First CausEffect" to be accurate.

MOjom yes i tend to agree. But the first cause I'm talking about IS in terms of the absolute. That is, ultimate source of existence.

Yes you might as call God as the First CauseEffect since He is the one who started the ball rolling (from 0) so to speak (f =ma) since He always existed.

By Causing Energy to transform into matter E = m c 2 happened. The singularity was the effect of causing energy, the elements and elemental forces to form a single point in time.

But this takes intelligence otherwise it's a trial and error for all eternity with no success, unless of course the universe got lucky - dumb luck as it were.

I think I see the problem. It also can be corrected by using logic which I know you admire so much so here we go.

You are using the word "God" for the concept of the Infinite, Uncreated, always existed source, correct???

Yet you also, for reasons of Dogma, also use the word "God" to mean "Biblical God" or "Jesus/Yashuah/etc", correct???

Basic logic makes that impossible since Infinite, Uncreated God is by definition beyond all such labels or identifiers, including the word Infinite, Uncreated or God or any other term. It is by all means Not Knowable or Identifiable. It cannot said to be Intelligent, The Father, Love, The Creator, or anything.

Imagine a deck of cards with infinite cards in the deck. You place one card anywhere in that deck and another card anywhere else in that deck. How close are either of those cards to the end or start of that deck??? How far are they from each other??? They are infinitely far or Unknowable to all of them.

originally posted by: edmc^2

But this takes intelligence otherwise it's a trial and error for all eternity with no success, unless of course the universe got lucky - dumb luck as it were.

No it wouldn't. There is no trial and error or chances having to be done repeatedly. That would require some kind of Time or events taking place but you can't have that yet since there is no time or space yet. So that would leave only the undeniable and absolutely certain event possible. The First Event. No luck is needed or intelligent. It is unavoidable. It's not a maybe maybe no, it is a must.

originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: edmc^2

No that is incorrect. No intelligence is needed nor is there a need for guidance or course correction or anything of the sort.

Did you study on Wolframs A new kind of Science???? How about fractals???

The Simple(chaos) can become Complex(organized) all on it's own. It's just something that happens. Fractals are a perfect example. Some values don't produce anything, but there are certain values that for some reason produce infinite and beautiful self similar fractals.

The direction and process is not directed by something else it is inherent from within and simply grows.

But simple doesn't necessarily mean "chaos" because chaos signify "disorder". In fact to make things simple it takes a lot of intelligence rather than the opposite.

And without direction - things will be chaotic. This is true no matter where you go, what you do or what it is. Disorder breeds disorder.

As for fractals, why then are we not capable of this? If as you say:

No intelligence is needed nor is there a need for guidance or course correction or anything

Why then is this abundant in nature but we can't even perfectly duplicate it?

In other words how can a sunflower beat us to the punch and do it perfectly?


Surely without intelligence we should be able to do it, but time and again, we fail. We can only approximate it.

Only when we start copying nature then we're able to do it - with the aid of computers.

originally posted by: edmc^2

By Causing Energy to transform into matter E = m c 2 happened. The singularity was the effect of causing energy, the elements and elemental forces to form a single point in time.

You're mixing up the order. Energy, the Elements and Elemental Forces are the Effect or actually more like the second effect. They are the Created Stuff. While the first Causeffect cannot be said to be anything yet.

In relation to the Fib series I used earlier for example. The 0 and 1 are the Causeffect. The Energy and Elemental forces are the Next 1 you'd get once the series has started which then gives reference to the 0 and 1 but they aren't part of the series of resulting values.

originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: edmc^2

But this takes intelligence otherwise it's a trial and error for all eternity with no success, unless of course the universe got lucky - dumb luck as it were.

No it wouldn't. There is no trial and error or chances having to be done repeatedly. That would require some kind of Time or events taking place but you can't have that yet since there is no time or space yet. So that would leave only the undeniable and absolutely certain event possible. The First Event. No luck is needed or intelligent. It is unavoidable. It's not a maybe maybe no, it is a must.

If so why then 14 billion years? Why not 50 billion, 300 billion if as you say no intelligence or luck was needed?

Just one try and bam! The universe was born without any intelligence, direction or even luck.

One shot. One precise shot.

But this to me lends more towards guided intelligence rather than luck.

For without luck (for unbelievers) or guidance then how did the universe came to be?

a reply to: edmc^2

The 14 billion years was after it began already. It's all in motion at that point and is just running it's course.

We can only approximate it because of how we can only simulate reality. The best we have is math and there are certain Transendental values which we can also only approximate but never get the true value for. We use symbols rather than numbers for these like pi and phi but their actual value we can't actually calculate perfectly.

You keep thinking or using the Before Creation Eternity as having some kind of time in which creation was tried and failed and tried again until it happened but that doesn't make sense. Even if that was how it worked, because we are talking Eternity whether you Tried and Failed only once or Tried and Failed a Trillion times, it doesn't matter because both 1 and a Trillion are equally insignificant to Eternity. You can't even put a value to them, it's meaningless to do so, so it's better not to.

a reply to: edmc^2

14 billion years is a straight shot to you?! You really don't have a clue...for all we know, the universe is still in its infancy stages, and we are just one more example of life in its most rudimentary form. Maybe there's aliens out there right now looking at us and thinking man, those are some ugly cockroaches. you seem to think that we have reached the paragon of existence, but for all we know, the universe has only just begun.

I'm confused now what the 14 or whatever billion years has to do with the Big Bang.

All time started after the Big Bang event and I thought we were talking about that not what happens after.

Or are you (E=mc^2) talking about the start of life now?? Or am I just not understanding what you're talking about????

originally posted by: mOjOm
I'm confused now what the 14 or whatever billion years has to do with the Big Bang.

All time started after the Big Bang event and I thought we were talking about that not what happens after.

Or are you (E=mc^2) talking about the start of life now?? Or am I just not understanding what you're talking about????

Simply put if not intelligence (God) or if not dumb luck (blind chance) what then created the universe/life exactly 14 bya?

Since you said tha luck (blind chance) had nothing to do with it what then was responsible for the Big Bang?

Hence if not luck (trial and error) or God (guided), what possibly could had made the universe to emerge (for a lack of a better word) around 14 billion year ago?

And why 14b, not 50 billion why not 300 billion years ago?

So if you're saying not God or blind chance event , then there's got to be some exacting "force" why it picked 14 bya to create the universe.

If so what is this force or thing?

originally posted by: edmc^2

We've already gone over most of these multiple times. But ok. Once more. Pay attention.

Simply put if not intelligence (God) or if not dumb luck (blind chance) what then created the universe/life exactly 14 bya?

Ok, I'm saying Not Intelligence. That means, the alternative must be Chance. That is fine with me to say it was chance. However saying chance implies trying something over and over until you get it right. To me this is just pointless because we are dealing with Infinity also, so I choose not to use the word chance but instead use certainty. Let me explain by example.

If I gave you 100 dice and told and told you to roll them until you get 100 1's all at the same time this would obviously take a while to do. Each try would be one "chance". However, if I gave you an Infinite amount of time to keep trying until it happened then it wouldn't matter if it took you 2 Chances or 10 chances or 1 trillion chances or more. With a time frame which is Infinite, be it 1 chance or 1 trillion chances, they are both still infinitely less than the amount of time you have available. Therefor anything on an infinite time would be destined to happen. The chances required are therefor meaningless, making whatever has to happen simply inevitable.

Since you said tha luck (blind chance) had nothing to do with it what then was responsible for the Big Bang?

Nothing. It is Inevitable and certain. See above for details.

Hence if not luck (trial and error) or God (guided), what possibly could had made the universe to emerge (for a lack of a better word) around 14 billion year ago?

Again, same question so it's the same answer. Only two possible ways to go. Absolutely Nothing. Or absolutely Everything. The proof of which is obvious.

And why 14b, not 50 billion why not 300 billion years ago?

That's just how long it took from then until now. I really don't know what this question has to do with anything either. What difference does it make???

So if you're saying not God or blind chance event , then there's got to be some exacting "force" why it picked 14 bya to create the universe.

If so what is this force or thing?

It didn't take 14 billion years to create the universe. It was created the moment it was created, but it has been changing and expanding for 14 billion years which brings us up till now.

Like I said earlier, I choose not to use the word "Chance" because I don't consider something which is inevitable to be a chance. It was inevitable because Given an Eternity Everything is Inevitable. That's why I choose to use Certainty rather than Chance. But if you must use that word for it, fine, I'm cool with that too. It's just a word after all so who cares.

God on the other hand, especially the way you insist on using it as a "Personal God" is illogical and not needed.
-Why doesn't there need to be some Being to kick things off???
---Because, Like I've shown repeatedly, no kick start is needed, it was Inevitable. It must, will, and did happen, that's it.

I say illogical because a Personal God Being, regardless of what name you want to give Him and what characteristics and dogma He may be the author of and so on only makes that Personal God anything but Infinite. An infinite is neither Personal, a Being, a God, or a Him/Her/It. Infinite cannot be quantifiable, measurable, labeled, or anything else and remain Infinite. To claim Infinity is "Anything" is logically incorrect since by definition Infinity is Infinitely More that "Something, Anything, or even Everything".

Personally I don't care what you want to call it as long as you don't also try and define it in any way. Once you start attributing anything, be it the bible, a name, personhood, emotions, whatever, the entire concept falls apart and is invalid. Unless of course it is Not Infinite. But if it is, then that's it.

I really hope that is clear that time, because I don't know how else to say it. If it still doesn't make sense I don't know what else to say. It makes perfect sense to me, breaks no laws, conflicts with no concepts of language or anything else that I know of. If it still isn't clear then perhaps I need a translator or maybe someone else can show me where the problem is, I don't know. Just read it carefully and more than once if it helps. I did my best.

a reply to: edmc^2

If you don't mind, I think I'd like one more crack at this as well.

Simply put if not intelligence (God) or if not dumb luck (blind chance) what then created the universe/life exactly 14 bya?

I don't know what gives you the impression that 14 billion years worth of strenuous trial and error (including the loss/extinction of countless failed organisms along the way) is at all an efficient process. As I explained before, the 14 billion years this universe has existed features more failures than you can possibly imagine. I know you're looking at the Earth and thinking that our little slice of the universe is the picture of perfection. But we don't know that. You're assuming that we've reached the paragon of cosmological and biological development, but where's the evidence for that? What reason do we have to believe that humans are any more advanced, relatively speaking, than spiders or cockroaches? By the time this universe comes to its close, perhaps it'll turn out that we're just a step above those creatures we view to be inferior.

Since you said tha luck (blind chance) had nothing to do with it what then was responsible for the Big Bang?

We don't know. But that's hardly a good reason to just assume anything.

Hence if not luck (trial and error) or God (guided), what possibly could had made the universe to emerge (for a lack of a better word) around 14 billion year ago?

You seem to think that 14 billion year is the magicv number for developing a perfect universe. But is this universe perfect? Or is it just taking a really long time to slowly implode from our perspective? There's no basis for stating that the universe in which we exist is at all perfect or functional. Remember that thing about using small numbers to represent the whole? Earth is by no means an accurate measuring stick for determining the quality or longevity of the rest of the universe.

And why 14b, not 50 billion why not 300 billion years ago?

Why does a hydrogen atom have only one proton? Why not three? Why not five? Because that's how physics works.

So if you're saying not God or blind chance event , then there's got to be some exacting "force" why it picked 14 bya to create the universe.

Picked? Who picked anything? You ask this question as though 14 billion years was a predetermined time span. We don't know that, and neither do you. In fact, we have no reason to believe it was. You're just assuming. Like a china cup shattering on the ground, the resulting pattern is not intentional. The varying forces responsible for the behavior of matter resulted in a completely random array of china shards. Like a leaf on the wind. There was no intention. Just physics at work. Same with the universe.

a reply to: edmc^2

If God exists then where is he? why dosent he show his face? Why does he allow mass murder & killing of children?

I have a million more questions like that. If God exists why does the pope still have a job?

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: mOjOm
I'm confused now what the 14 or whatever billion years has to do with the Big Bang.

All time started after the Big Bang event and I thought we were talking about that not what happens after.

Or are you (E=mc^2) talking about the start of life now?? Or am I just not understanding what you're talking about????

Simply put if not intelligence (God) or if not dumb luck (blind chance) what then created the universe/life exactly 14 bya?

Since you said tha luck (blind chance) had nothing to do with it what then was responsible for the Big Bang?

Hence if not luck (trial and error) or God (guided), what possibly could had made the universe to emerge (for a lack of a better word) around 14 billion year ago?

And why 14b, not 50 billion why not 300 billion years ago?

So if you're saying not God or blind chance event , then there's got to be some exacting "force" why it picked 14 bya to create the universe.

If so what is this force or thing?

You're still asking the same questions over and over - and over and over people have posted answers. You're stuck in the mud on a "creator". Universes probably come and go. They are created spontaneously and disappear spontaneously - just like the particles created at CERN. Self assembly on this planet is a remarkable model that no one is paying attention to. Atoms, molecules, matter self assembles WITHOUT ANY OUTSIDE INTERVENTION. Universes do the same thing: they assemble and disassemble. So where did they all come from? Well they really don't have to come from anywhere. No one or no thing created them. They are self initialized and create their own matter.

Read Steven Hawking - I know you won't because you're stuck in the mud on a hypothesis that you have zip evidence for. There's no logic to your case. For Pete's sake, do some homework.

Steven Hawking:
www.hawking.org.uk...

I'm tired of this festering pile of fecal waste. It's a waste of time and energy. The OP desired an audience, not an intelligent exchange. He wanted to show off his genius and prove how easily his miraculous answer solves all of our existential quandaries without actually solving anything. I, too, can make up an imaginary one-size-fits-all variable and plug it into every equation you care to throw at me. Doesn't mean the variable possesses any real value other than as a shortcut to an answer I don't have the integrity to acquire properly. In the end, that variable still represents a vacancy, an intellectual void we have yet to fill. Just make sure it's intellectuals that actually fill it when the time comes.

Sayonara and good riddance.

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
I'm tired of this festering pile of fecal waste. It's a waste of time and energy. The OP desired an audience, not an intelligent exchange. He wanted to show off his genius and prove how easily his miraculous answer solves all of our existential quandaries without actually solving anything. I, too, can make up an imaginary one-size-fits-all variable and plug it into every equation you care to throw at me. Doesn't mean the variable possesses any real value other than as a shortcut to an answer I don't have the integrity to acquire properly. In the end, that variable still represents a vacancy, an intellectual void we have yet to fill. Just make sure it's intellectuals that actually fill it when the time comes.

Sayonara and good riddance.

The OP desired an audience?

I couldn't care less if you participated in the discussion or not. I've rather not have you participate because all that you brought to the table in support of your side are just nonsense and ridicule.

What's more you failed to prove your side and utterly failed destroy my premise.

Why is that? Might it be that yours doesn't make sense - that something comes from nothing is nonsense and masquerading as scientific fact?

We'll the facts shows this to be so. If this is the case what then should we accept?

No other choice but the accept the obvious however simple and uncomplicated it is.

That the universe had a beginning.

That it did not come from nothing.

But rather was the result of a purposeful directed creation.

It was directed by means of absolute pure intelligence - the transformation of "dynamic energy" (Isa 40:26) into matter. Hence E=mc2. The First law of thermodynamics.

And that it's governed by fundamental forces from which we all benifit from- especially the Second law of thermodynamics.

A law that logic dectate can't be created unless someone made it and put into motion.

So if you must go then go and thank you for your participation. Hopefully someday you'll come to accept the truth that you will never get something from nothing but rather from something or someone already existing - eternal God.

a reply to: edmc^2

Same redundant statements. No logic. No proof. No evidence. No nothing.

Boring.

originally posted by: wlasikiewicz
a reply to: edmc^2

If God exists then where is he? why dosent he show his face? Why does he allow mass murder & killing of children?

I have a million more questions like that. If God exists why does the pope still have a job?

Yes God exists. In fact he is not hidden from everyone but rather he revealed himself throughout his creation and most of all from a letter from him.

As for murder and killings - it's a valid question and requires a valid answer and we do have valid answers. Question is will you accept them if satisfactory?

As for the pope. He is only human like us but elevated by many because of long held traditions. He is a sinner and imperfect as anyone else. In fact in the scriptures what many of the churches had done and taught their followers are condemned. But that's a different topic.

Maybe we can answer it in the other forum.

originally posted by: edmc^2
Yes God exists. In fact he is not hidden from everyone but rather he revealed himself throughout his creation and most of all from a letter from him.

He revealed himself throughout all of his creation? How? Through the bible? I didn't realize that god put bibles on every world in the universe.