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Why Infinity and the Laws of Thermodynamics supports, if not proves the existence of God.

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posted on Jun, 13 2014 @ 02:41 AM
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a reply to: edmc^2

Well, we covered the "Something from Nothing" thing already and as I thought we came to the conclusion that Nothing is being used in a flexible way. Logically obviously a Total and Absolute "Nothing" is just that, Nothing, and that wouldn't change. However, such a Nothing isn't what Physicists are talking about, although it is scientifically nothing. You can take that however you want, but even in your video's he talks about it and what it means.

So in that sense, your logical argument against them saying that something comes from nothing is pointless then because you're saying the same thing on your side at that point. Maybe not exactly the same in the details but philosophically it's the same idea as far as I can tell. The only real difference that I see is that you use "Infinite Nothingness/Space" which contains the Finite Universe in basically the same way they do, but you insist on sticking God in there too. Worse still you attribute that God to a Biblical Creative Being as well. Including such a specific God Being, even just conceptually, brings with it all sorts of other issues that are beyond the scope of this topic.

As for me I thought I made that clear earlier but basically I'm on the side that No Personal God Being is needed for Universal Origin. As far as what I understand about the science behind it and the logic that I've studied so far I don't see the need for a God Being included. In fact to include such a being is Illogical to me because it creates other problems for no reason at all.

More specifically, the biblical God you attribute as the Creator, which varies from person to person but usually has certain traits which are always included, is IMO no way near being Logical or Believable in the way it's represented. I won't get into the many reasons why unless you'd like to go there, but basically any Omni-Everything Perfect Being would never be responsible for a book like the bible. To say so is a completely Illogical pursuit IMO.




posted on Jun, 13 2014 @ 02:43 AM
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originally posted by: stormson
a reply to: edmc^2

now show me how it was your god, or the god of the jews, and not one of the millions of other gods that did it.


Since you asked:

[Psa 102:25 ESV]
"Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands."

[Isa 42:5 DBY]
"Thus saith God, Jehovah, he that created the heavens and stretched them out, he that spread forth the earth and its productions, he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:"

[Isa 42:5 WEB]
"Thus says God Yahweh, he who created the heavens, and stretched them forth; he who spread abroad the earth and that which comes out of it; he who gives breath to the people on it, and spirit to those who walk therein:

[Isa 45:18 ASV]
"For thus saith Jehovah that created the heavens, the God that formed the earth and made it, that established it and created it not a waste, that formed it to be inhabited: I am Jehovah; and there is none else."

[Rom 1:20 NKJV]
"For since the creation of the world His invisible [attributes] are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,"

[Heb 1:10 KJV]
"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:"

[Rev 4:11 NLT]
""You are worthy, O Lord our God, to receive glory and honor and power. For you created all things, and they exist because you created what you pleased.""

let me know if you need more.



posted on Jun, 13 2014 @ 04:00 AM
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a reply to: edmc^2

The logical gap in your argument is, of course, that you haven't proved that this infinite creator is YOUR god. Why isn't it Allah or Krisha or any of the other gods people have invented over the years? Why can't it be an infinite intelligence that we know nothing about? And if you can't see this obvious logical gap, why should people trust you that the rest of your logic is sound?



posted on Jun, 13 2014 @ 04:39 AM
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a reply to: edmc^2

You're using the bible to prove the bible? Really? That's like a textbook example of circular reasoning.



posted on Jun, 13 2014 @ 05:38 AM
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As someone mentioned earlier.... I have problem with your theory because of one fatal flaw in your reckoning....

The spurious claim that "everything came from nothing"

I point you towards my thread which I have copied and pasted below.....

Although I will concede that while this does not satisfactorily solve the infinity problem... it does highlight your lack of knowledge regarding your subject of choice....

"I spend a lot of my time trawling through various threads and web sites that support debate between creationists and people that support Evolution and Abiogenesis... I must admit I don't often get involved as I find these debates often, in fact 99% of the time, descend into pointless arguments between people that actually know very little about the subjects they are supporting/arguing against.... All the same, I find these conversations fascinating....

I notice common patterns in these dabates, some of which are commonly held opinions, some of which are just based on pure ignorance or conjecture... the following being prime examples:-

"How can life come from just dirt, water and air?"
"Everything is just so complicated and beautifully designed, how could it all have happened by chance?"
"There is simply no evidence for evolution"

To name a few...

But the single most frustrating statement made by creationists in my opinion is the following:-

"How can everything come from absolutely nothing?"

This tends to be the creationists stock theory/question for atheists, and is in fact a question based on a lack of information and knowledge of the processes involved in big bang theory...

I do find it interesting however, and slightly ironic, that creationists resort to stating that "energy does not cease to exist, it merely changes form" argument..."So how could anything come from nothing?".

The statement is wholly correct and testable to our current abilities... and is a central tenant to the underlying principles of physics.



Anyway, I digress.. the purpose of this post is to highlight the error made in the first statement..

A SINGULARITY IS NOT "NOTHING", IN FACT, IT IS THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF NOTHING, IT IS EVERYTHING, EVERYTHING THAT EVER EXISTED AND EVER WILL EXIST, COMPRESSED TO AN INFINTELY SMALL SIZE, WITH INFINTE VALUES FOR GRAVITY, PRESSURE, MASS, VOLUME ETC... IT IS THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF NOTHING....

In fact, a singularity is defined as a point in space/time where one of these measurable values has reached infinite proportions...

The question/rhetorical statement "How could everything come from nothing?" is therefore once again a question based on a lack o f understanding and an ignorance of the subject matter.... or maybe just another form of people ignoring evidence or creating straw men to support their own wild opinions/beliefs....

Ok...

Rant over....

PA - "
edit on 13-6-2014 by PerfectAnomoly because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 13 2014 @ 06:47 AM
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originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: Krazysh0t

And what position are you saying I have attributed to the OP?


Sorry that came off wrong. I was agreeing with you.



posted on Jun, 13 2014 @ 07:26 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: edmc^2

I'm not going to sit and watch a two hour video to find out the answer to my question. I don't even have the capability to watch that video right now. You know what is simpler? You just answer the question for me. It should be easy enough. Just point me to the text in the theory that says that something came from nothing.


Well in a nutshell what basically they said is that the laws of physics is what created something from nothing.



The laws of physics? Which ones?


So I'm still waiting to hear which laws of physics say that something comes from nothing.



posted on Jun, 13 2014 @ 07:48 AM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

OK its cool. I wasn't sure that's why I asked. I thought maybe I screwed up and said something wrong.



posted on Jun, 13 2014 @ 07:57 AM
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originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: stormson
a reply to: edmc^2

now show me how it was your god, or the god of the jews, and not one of the millions of other gods that did it.


Since you asked:

[Psa 102:25 ESV]
"Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands."

[Isa 42:5 DBY]
"Thus saith God, Jehovah, he that created the heavens and stretched them out, he that spread forth the earth and its productions, he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:"

[Isa 42:5 WEB]
"Thus says God Yahweh, he who created the heavens, and stretched them forth; he who spread abroad the earth and that which comes out of it; he who gives breath to the people on it, and spirit to those who walk therein:

[Isa 45:18 ASV]
"For thus saith Jehovah that created the heavens, the God that formed the earth and made it, that established it and created it not a waste, that formed it to be inhabited: I am Jehovah; and there is none else."

[Rom 1:20 NKJV]
"For since the creation of the world His invisible [attributes] are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,"

[Heb 1:10 KJV]
"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:"

[Rev 4:11 NLT]
""You are worthy, O Lord our God, to receive glory and honor and power. For you created all things, and they exist because you created what you pleased.""

let me know if you need more.


I could be wrong, but I suspect he was asking for science, not theological copypasta.

Also, I found this on my Facebook page today. It reminded me of this thread, for some reason...


edit on 13-6-2014 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 13 2014 @ 09:24 AM
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a reply to: edmc^2

I think your logic is flawed. You had a conclusion and then fit the evidence to support that conclusion. Science is objective and pragmatic. To draw a conclusion that logically there has to be a God is illogical. Your argument is not convincing.



posted on Jun, 13 2014 @ 09:31 AM
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originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: edmc^2

I think your logic is flawed. You had a conclusion and then fit the evidence to support that conclusion. Science is objective and pragmatic. To draw a conclusion that logically there has to be a God is illogical. Your argument is not convincing.



Number 9 on the list of Logic Commandments.



posted on Jun, 13 2014 @ 09:47 AM
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originally posted by: GetHyped
a reply to: edmc^2

You're using the bible to prove the bible? Really? That's like a textbook example of circular reasoning.


Exactly... lol...

PA



posted on Jun, 13 2014 @ 10:40 AM
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a reply to: edmc^2

This is loose and sloppy logic built on deeply flawed premises and inferences.



posted on Jun, 13 2014 @ 12:16 PM
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originally posted by: th3dudeabides
a reply to: edmc^2

This is loose and sloppy logic built on deeply flawed premises and inferences.


Any specifics?

Or is it the following logics:

Order always precedes disorder

Cold will always flow from hot

Only something or someone can produce something

Nothing produces nothing

Law requires a law maker

Purposeful design requires an intelligent designer

When something always existed it means it's uncreated

Infinity implies no end and beginning

A house requires a builder so does the universe (is it this one that you have problem with? If so why?)



posted on Jun, 13 2014 @ 12:26 PM
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a reply to: edmc^2



A house requires a builder so does the universe (is it this one that you have problem with? If so why?)


Because God is the only exception to your rule of "everything comes from something", and you have yet to explain why he should be excepted from that rule. If God is law, who is the law maker? So please explain.
edit on 13-6-2014 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 13 2014 @ 12:35 PM
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originally posted by: Phantom423
a reply to: edmc^2

I think your logic is flawed. You had a conclusion and then fit the evidence to support that conclusion. Science is objective and pragmatic. To draw a conclusion that logically there has to be a God is illogical. Your argument is not convincing.



How so?

If according to indisputable observation based on verifiable repeatable peer reviewed research that the universe is in a high degree of order, how is it illogical to conclude that it must have a creator?

Or

How is it illogical to say that if a magnificent house requires a great builder, then the universe which is far more sophisticated than a house must have a builder?


Please explain the flaw in ACKNOWLEDGING the existence of the builder?







posted on Jun, 13 2014 @ 12:50 PM
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originally posted by: AfterInfinity
a reply to: edmc^2



A house requires a builder so does the universe (is it this one that you have problem with? If so why?)


Because God is the only exception to your rule of "everything comes from something", and you have yet to explain why he should be excepted from that rule. If God is law, who is the law maker? So please explain.


Easy.

If there are things in the universe that are exempted from the rule (that we understand) why is God who is the source of the raw material, the building blocks of the universe not above it?

Case in point black holes, galaxy spin, etc?

As for law:

If you asked a builder to build you a house based on your exacting specifications, who then is the maker of the rule/law/parameters?

Is it the builder or you?

Obviously you!

Same goes with creator of the universe.



posted on Jun, 13 2014 @ 01:13 PM
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a reply to: AfterInfinity

For some reason...this list of yours makes me think that your arguments are purely based on philosophy not sound logic or for that matter common sense.



If I'm correct then you'll never understand and be able to see the obvious.



posted on Jun, 13 2014 @ 01:27 PM
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a reply to: PerfectAnomoly




A SINGULARITY IS NOT "NOTHING", IN FACT, IT IS THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF NOTHING, IT IS EVERYTHING, EVERYTHING THAT EVER EXISTED AND EVER WILL EXIST, COMPRESSED TO AN INFINTELY SMALL SIZE, WITH INFINTE VALUES FOR GRAVITY, PRESSURE, MASS, VOLUME ETC... IT IS THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF NOTHING....


I'm 100% in total agreement. Been my premise from the get go.

But have to this:

For every cause there's an effect. Hence if the SINGULARITY is the result of compressed infinitely small values of gravity, pressure, mass, volume etc, what or who CAUSED IT?



posted on Jun, 13 2014 @ 01:40 PM
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originally posted by: edmc^2

originally posted by: stormson
a reply to: edmc^2

now show me how it was your god, or the god of the jews, and not one of the millions of other gods that did it.


Since you asked:

[Psa 102:25 ESV]
"Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands."

[Isa 42:5 DBY]
"Thus saith God, Jehovah, he that created the heavens and stretched them out, he that spread forth the earth and its productions, he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:"

[Isa 42:5 WEB]
"Thus says God Yahweh, he who created the heavens, and stretched them forth; he who spread abroad the earth and that which comes out of it; he who gives breath to the people on it, and spirit to those who walk therein:

[Isa 45:18 ASV]
"For thus saith Jehovah that created the heavens, the God that formed the earth and made it, that established it and created it not a waste, that formed it to be inhabited: I am Jehovah; and there is none else."

[Rom 1:20 NKJV]
"For since the creation of the world His invisible [attributes] are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,"

[Heb 1:10 KJV]
"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:"

[Rev 4:11 NLT]
""You are worthy, O Lord our God, to receive glory and honor and power. For you created all things, and they exist because you created what you pleased.""

let me know if you need more.


so you have a book?

i have a book too. it says "and i, yes i, created all things just for you to muck it up and say someone else did it"

it also says, "pay no attention to the desert god, for he is a fraud."

which of our books is true?

follow up question.

if your god was here from the beginning, how come there are numerous religions and gods that predate your god? in the history of humans worshiping gods, your god is rather late on the scene. what was he doing before the jews came along and declared there god the one true god? spinning his thumbs waiting for the right desert tribe to find him?
edit on 13-6-2014 by stormson because: (no reason given)



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