Why Infinity and the Laws of Thermodynamics supports, if not proves the existence of God.

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posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 08:10 PM
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Before I state my case, I'd like to ask that if you decide to present your side of the argument or to counter mine, please do so - as I will - in a logical and commonsensical manner. This way any reply based on emotion will be avoided.


So good luck! Deny Ignorance and Illogical Reasoning!

Now, here's why (I know and believe) Infinity and the Laws of Thermodynamics supports, if not proves the existence of God.

First, why Infinity?

The simplest answer to this question is - because it's logical and it makes sense.

That is, other than God (which I think you won't accept), there's no other way of explaining our existence or for that matter the existence of the universe in a logical, mathematical even scientific way other than the concept if INFINITY. Try if you may, but you will only find yourself creating more questions, with no clear answer. And furthermore it will only lead you to nowhere but to deny the irrefutable facts as to why we exist. Also you will only be substituting reality with something non-existent. Like the claim that the Universe was created by nothing. Or by the "void" space as if the universe came to be on its own volition without any directed outside force. On the other hand, you might just admit that you don't know. Of course nothing wrong with that but it's an unsatisfactory answer to a simple question where the answer is really not that hard to figure out. Yet some will not accept it, including you I suppose because it resides in the realm of logic and commonsense. It might be to you a nonsense.

In either case you might think that this claim "of nothing created the universe" is scientific, or that it makes much more sense than the alternative. But I assure you, it's not for the simple reason that it flies against logic and commonsense. It goes against the very nature of things. But if you insist that it is, then should it be be the norm, not the exception? Is it not? Of course! And why not? If true, we should expect this then to be happening in any case. For example if you put "nothing" in a bank account you should expect at least a $billion or more in there. After all, what's a $billion in comparison to the universe with its "billions of billions" of stars and galaxies? If such "thing" as the universe can come by, by means of nothing, surely a $B should be nothing at all in the scheme of things. But everyday experiences show otherwise because we know for a fact that you can only get something from a pre-existing something and NOT from nothing. Hence when nothing is put in, expect nothing to come out. Otherwise it's short of a miracle if not magic on your part.

Therefore with this logic, the ONLY logical explanation then must come down to this:

There must be something that is already there or to be precise (in my case), there was already SOMEONE there before the "Big Bang".

That is, someone UNCREATED, infinite - having no beginning and no end -was already present (before and) at the moment of creation 14 billion years ago. An infinite being but on a higher plane of existence in the scheme of things. Just like any creator is greater than his/her creation, so goes with this Being. For how could the thing be greater than the "one" who created the "thing"? It can't be. Hence, just like us, greater than the things we made so does the Creator of all things.

In addition if you think about it, that is, if there's no such thing as the concept of INFINITY then we're left with what? Other than nothing, we're left with the FINITE. And what is FINITE but something that has a beginning or an end. Of course! Besides, "nothing" is also a form of infinity - infinite nothingness.

And since the universe had a beginning so it follows that it's FINITE. Hence, it must then follow by necessity or by divine providence (in my case) a product of something bigger than "itself" - the INFINITE.

Thus the concept of INFINITY (be it something or someone) gives us a starting point from which to understand our existence.

In short, before the "Big-Bang" there was already INFINITY. That something infinite or Someone Eternal (in my case) was there and the SOURCE of the raw material from which the PHYSICAL Universe came from.

And that this SOMEONE, is complete, lacking nothing. As the Prime Mover, this one alone (from the beginning) had the absolute power and the ability to transform the awesome "dynamic energy" (Isa 40:26) into matter. The 1st law of thermodynamics - E = m c 2!

That ONE is God [whose name is Jehovah/Yehowah/Yahweh (Ps 83:18)] the ultimate source of all things.

It's the ONLY explanation that makes logical sense just as it's logical to accept that ONLY a pre-existing something or someone (in my case) can produce something.

Hence the statement "Out of Someone comes something" is factually accurate.

Which then, takes me to my 3rd point: Why the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics supports, if not prove the existence of God.

That is, that Organization (source) MUST precede Disorganization/Degradation.

That the Universe came to be because there was ORDER to begin with! From ORDER to DISORDER to ORDER. We came to be because of it, not the other way around, not evolution!

In fact if you think about it, we face this reality daily in our lives, even the physical Universe experience it (with birth and death of stars). That ALL material, physical things DEGRADE in time. Left to themselves, all things in PHYSICAL ORDER tend toward DISINTIGRATION/disorganization/degradation. All things (physical) are subject to the 2nd law of thermodynamics. From hot to cold, just like a mechanical watch, it will eventually wind down to a stop! Left on its own, the universe will become chaotic and finally succumbed to entropy. Unless!


www.youtube.com...


Unless of course, SOMEONE (who is always existing and living with INFINITE power) winds it up and fine tunes it again, puts it in order again, then it will never become in perpetual chaos. The whole system renews itself again.

And that is why the Universe is such a system, in constant flux, always changing, in constant renewal but never in perpetual disarray. From ORDER to DISORDER to ORDER in perfect balance because God (Jehovah/Yehowah/Yahweh) who is ETERNAL and INFINITE exists and created it in such a way!

As the SOURCE of all "dynamic energy", He will never permit His CREATION to "totter" as the Scripture says.

The fact testify to this - 14 billion years later (or so) the Universe is still in a very high organized state of existence in spite of entropy, in spite of the presence of the 2nd law of thermodynamics, it's still in tune, fine tuned.

Hence, as long as INFINITY exists the Universe will continue to exist.

Hence as long as God exists the Universe will continue to exist in its full glory for all Eternity!!!

(Isaiah 40:28) Do you not know? Have you not heard? Jehovah, the Creator of the ends of the earth, is a God for all eternity. He never tires out or grows weary. His understanding is unsearchable.

Thanks be to God for that!

In conclusion:

The logic of infinity - an always existing, already organized something (logic of thermodynamics) or to be precise - an Infinite Always Existing Intelligent Someone - a Being - God IS the ONLY logical explanation to existence of the highly organized Universe!

Your turn...



+7 more 
posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 08:26 PM
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So the claim that "nothing created the universe" is illogical, but pushing the question back one more step and claiming "God created the universe, but nothing created God" is logical?

Checkmate. You win.




posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 08:38 PM
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I have a problem understanding how you justify the claim that your God, Jehovah (or otherwise) is Infinite. He, God, does have certain attributes and characteristics which would limit him from being Infinite. For example he is said to be Jealous, Kind, Loving, Gracious, etc. However is he also Hateful, Spiteful, Angry, Mean, Deceptive, etc.??? If he is some of those and not others than how is he Infinite???



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 08:40 PM
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a reply to: edmc^2

Very interesting stuff. You are basically making what I believe is known as the "Cosmological Argument" for God's existence. I believe in God because of the Bible. That's all I need, but the apologetic arguments are always fascinating. There are only 3 possibilities as to where the universe comes from... 1) That it created itself.. or in other words, your argument that nothing became or created something. This is scientifically and philosophically impossible 2) That the universe has always existed. This has been disproven by science because of the evidence of an always expanding universe and the study of background radiation. So that leaves us with the 3rd and final option... that something or someone existed before the creation of the universe, and is responsible for it's creation. Clearly that something or someone has eternally existed, because there has to be an eternal entity because the other two options are not logically, scientifically, or philosophically possible. I choose to believe that that eternal entity is the triune Almighty God of the Bible, and that all things were created by the LORD Jesus Christ as it says in John 1 and Colossians 1.



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 08:51 PM
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I think the existance of God is painfully obvious. Nothing can be created or destroyed, but simply reformatted. What does that mean? God formed the universe from His own power. It was created by Him, from Him. God is in all things.

We exist because God created us. If one cannot arrive to that understanding independantly, then they will never be ready to learn about who God is.

Atheism is total willful ignorance. Agnosticism is slighly more respectable. God creates, and God reveals Himself to all who seek.


+2 more 
posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 08:59 PM
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originally posted by: edmc^2
God IS the ONLY logical explanation to existence of the highly organized Universe!

Your turn...


Your argument falls apart immediately when you ask where God came from. Your theory says that the universe can't be created from nothing, but then again, neither can God. Each is as likely to have sparked out of nothingness as the other so you're comparing apples to apples but saying there's a difference.

No matter how far back you go in the process of asking where existence came from, the only logical answer is that there was nothing, and then there was existence. God couldn't have created himself, and even if he did, he would still have to have come from nothing which goes against what you are saying.

I'm not saying this has to be the way it played out, but it's the only logical answer, and that seems to be what you are looking for.



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 09:06 PM
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originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
I think the existance of God is painfully obvious. Nothing can be created or destroyed, but simply reformatted. What does that mean? God formed the universe from His own power. It was created by Him, from Him. God is in all things.


Really??? I have to disagree with that. If God was so painfully obvious why is he simply not at least visible??? After all, keeping everything else the same and just adding that one single feature for everyone to see him visually would then at least help in making your statement true. In fact, it could be any one of our 5 senses, not just sight and have the same effect. However, it is clear that God's existence is hidden from our senses. While some clearly make the claim that "they have witnessed God" that is only an individuals claim with zero evidence for anyone else making it useless.


We exist because God created us. If one cannot arrive to that understanding independantly, then they will never be ready to learn about who God is.

Atheism is total willful ignorance. Agnosticism is slighly more respectable. God creates, and God reveals Himself to all who seek.


This is just your own personal bias toward your own belief and against just two other options. There are also many other Religious Systems with different Gods or no Gods at all all saying the same as you are. They all have their reasons and ideas all of which also have little or no actual evidence other than Faith.

Anything that is reliant on Faith is not Painfully Obvious.



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 09:06 PM
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Science can't explain it, god must've done it!
There's the answer.

+1 for religious folk!



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 09:11 PM
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a reply to: scojak

The theory doesn't fail at all.

The true fail happens when people believe they can explain the hows and the whys to existence using man made explanations.
And to the person saying God is spitefull and angry and deceptive is another big fail and only shows that those attributes describe the poster's own shortcomings in life.
God is beyond Time and thus also beyond logic. Logic can't and does not explain many things, and when it doesn't, people just say "we don't yet know"
But when people are discussing God and those same rules apply, they say "This is all BS" Why? because of personal failure, not because of any failure by God.



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 09:14 PM
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a reply to: edmc^2

I keep seeing this argument from the religious that the universe was created from nothing or that the scientific community claims the universe was created from nothing. I would appreciate you sourcing that claim from the scientific community....so...until then let us look at what is excepted by the scientific community.



In particular, the Big Bang model suggests that at some moment all matter in the universe was contained in a single point, which is considered the beginning of the universe.en.wikipedia.org...



That singular point is commonly referred to as a singularity. A singularity is not nothing. Because your whole thesis holds that flaw I cannot really follow your train of thought.

For giggles though you say god created everything from nothing yet god would need to be something because he couldn't create from nothing right? You just added a unnecessary step by adding the god elements and attributing intelligence to it. In fact you have added an even harder question to the mix which is where did the god deity come from. You must solve the question from where it came now if you say it has always been which so many do then I ask f something can always have existed why do we need a god figure? The elements for the universe such as the singularity could have always been.

Let me address one other aspect of your OP. You claim their is order.....err...do you realize our galaxy is on a collision course with another? That is not order. Most of the universe will kill a person, 99.999999 percent of it or more. Does god not know how to clean his room.


Sorry your OP is just a bunch of mental gymnastics that doesn't solve for anything and it certainly doesn't prove the existence of a deity if anything you just gave some very logical reasons why one does not exist.



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 09:22 PM
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"Like the claim that the Universe was created by nothing. Or by the "void" space as if the universe came to be on its own volition without any directed outside force."

the problem with your logic here is that you claim that its absurd for something to exist from nothing and then follow that using it as proof that a god exists from nothing.

"Of course nothing wrong with that but it's an unsatisfactory answer to a simple question where the answer is really not that hard to figure out."

actually, admitting you dont know is the ONLY correct answer. we could makes guesses but they will always be just that.

"It goes against the very nature of things."

this statement tells me that you believe it is absurd for a creator to exist. i too believe it is absurd for something to have no creator, but the problem i run into when calculating the idea is this: if the universe needs a creator because its absurd for it not to, then lets imagine "God1" is the creator of the universe. but wait, theres more! it is also absurd for God1 to exist without a creator as it is with everything. so lets give God1's creator the name "God2."

ahhh, thats better, but wait! God3 made God2 because everything needs a creator. God4 made God3, God5 made God4 and so on into infinity. UNLESS...... eventually you came upon a creator who didnt have a creator. which proves that it is possible to exist without a creator and while it is equally possible that there are an infinite number of creators, im going to sit down, take a breath and acknowledge that this means it is possible that the universe has no creator.

"If such "thing" as the universe can come by, by means of nothing, surely a $B should be nothing at all in the scheme of things."

yes, this is correct, it is extremely unlikely that $1B will appear in your bank account but it is not impossible. just as it is extremely unlikely for the universe let alone life to burst into existence. what youre missing in this logic is that we dont know whats outside of this universe, but we do know what is outside of a bank account. its easy for you to grasp a worldy idea as a human, but from inside of a bank account you could only speculate what is outside of it.

"There must be something that is already there or to be precise (in my case), there was already SOMEONE there before the Big Bang."

here is another misconception you have picked up from your existence as an organic life form. it is wrong to assume that a creator thinks in the same way as an organic life form. the reason you are engulfed in this way of thinking is because you are one. energy is far more powerful than organic life, yet it doesnt calculate things in the same capacity as we do energy calculates things far more perfectly. gravity is everywhere and nowhere, it holds our world intact and even created the solar system. have you not considered energy may be your god?

"That is, someone UNCREATED, infinite"

again, i feel like youre describing energy here, but you cant let go of the idea of it being a person.

"An infinite being but on a higher plane of existence in the scheme of things."

a higher plane of existence like how magnetism and gravity are?

do you know who holds energy to the law?
who enforces them and makes sure they do as theyre supposed to?

MATH. math is the "code" of the universe. it is infinite, and as far as i could tell is the only think that would probably transcend the edges of our universe. no matter what is outside, one thing plus another thing is always two things.

or hell, maybe i just cant grasp the idea of it not being two things because my entire existence is made of math.

"Thus the concept of INFINITY (be it something or someone) gives us a starting point from which to understand our existence."

again youre overlooking the idea that the universe could just as likely be infinite. the universe could be god. another thing is you think that there is a greater existence outside our universe, why dont you acknowlege the lesser existence that may be inside our universe. maybe we are the last line of creators, and each quark in each of our atoms in each of our cells holds its own universe inside of it. and in each of those universes there are billions of planets with life and each species thinks that we "created" them when we dont even know theyre there.

"That ONE is God [whose name is Jehovah/Yehowah/Yahweh (Ps 83:18)] the ultimate source of all things."

ok, you just lost all credibility. let me explain why christianity is incorrect...

ill start by explaining that magic isnt real(theres a point to this) if i could shoot fireballs 50 feet and out of my hands this would be a good example of magic. but what you arent considering is that if i could do this, there WOULD be a scientific explanation for how im doing it. the definition of "magic" is "the impossible" which means by definition that it isnt real.

next lets consider humans from two or three thousand years ago. if i was able to visit them, and bring some modern day tech with me, they would think it was magical. this is because what they didnt understand was called magic. but why is it easy for humans to call advanced tech magic. from the advanced tech point of view these thoughts are silly and ridiculous, but they are valid are realistic from a primitive point of view.

now heres my main point. if an advanced alien race had visited earth 2000 years ago, the silly humans would have called them magic. they would have worshiped them as gods just like the people of south america who thought the europeans to be gods. why do we look at them as silly savages and look at the people of the old testament as serious intelligent humans?

if the stories of the bible are true, it is far more likely they are stories of an advanced race interacting with humans from the primitive clueless humans point of view. just like if we could read the accounts the south americans had with the gods from the primitive point of views.

now back to my real point.

"That is, that Organization (source) MUST precede Disorganization/Degradation"

in this line the problem is you think the universe is disorganized but it is actually extremely organized. your perspective is twisted because this universe is all you know.

"That ALL material, physical things DEGRADE in time."

wrong. the only real things are energy, which make up atoms. atoms can trade energy to other atoms and become different elements, but their energy never stops existing.

ok, so again why would something as infinite as energy be anything close to a "being?" if you ask me the highest level of existence is energy. as an animal you cant grasp the idea of something that isnt like you. just like if chimps were the smartest species on earth, they would probably imaging an omnipotent chimp like being.

im gonna end this with a huge WTF.

you seem to grasp the idea of "god" being infinite very easily, but then you personify it. energy is not a "being" it is far more powerful than any being could ever be. and energy breeding with a human to create a half human half energy son? seriously? come on...



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 09:26 PM
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originally posted by: Shadow22
a reply to: scojak

The theory doesn't fail at all.

The true fail happens when people believe they can explain the hows and the whys to existence using man made explanations.


I didn't try to explain the hows and whys, I simply gave the most logical explanation for existence which is what the OP was about. In fact I said that in the last line of my post.



And to the person saying God is spitefull and angry and deceptive is another big fail and only shows that those attributes describe the poster's own shortcomings in life.


This is just hateful



God is beyond Time and thus also beyond logic. Logic can't and does not explain many things, and when it doesn't, people just say "we don't yet know"
But when people are discussing God and those same rules apply, they say "This is all BS" Why? because of personal failure, not because of any failure by God.


Please take note of the OP saying, "please do so...in a logical and commonsensical manner". That's what I did. I'll ask you to please stay on topic for your next post.

...And BTW, "time" has nothing to do with existence. It's 0 vs 1, off vs on, nothing vs something.



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 09:26 PM
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originally posted by: Shadow22

And to the person saying God is spitefull and angry and deceptive is another big fail and only shows that those attributes describe the poster's own shortcomings in life.


Well, that person I think your talking about is me actually and I have a name and I'm present so you may address me as such if you don't mind. Also, I never claimed anything of God but I did pose a question. A question is different than a declarative statement FYI. None of which have anything to do with me personally or my life which should be obvious since you don't know anything at all about me or my life making that whole statement of yours yet another faith based opinion only you could possibly believe.


God is beyond Time and thus also beyond logic. Logic can't and does not explain many things, and when it doesn't, people just say "we don't yet know"
But when people are discussing God and those same rules apply, they say "This is all BS" Why? because of personal failure, not because of any failure by God.


Really, because one of the main points of the OP in this is that it IS Logical. In fact it even said so right there at the very top of his post. So your claim that God is beyond Logic would in fact be against what the OP is saying. Yet you also claim to agree with the OP too. I find that interesting. Do you often hold two conflicting ideas as true at the same time???



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 09:30 PM
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originally posted by: ProfessorPlum
So the claim that "nothing created the universe" is illogical, but pushing the question back one more step and claiming "God created the universe, but nothing created God" is logical?

Checkmate. You win.



Of course it's logical for the simple fact that space is infinite and has always existed and uncreated. Unless of course you're telling me that there's no such thing as infinite space then you win. But the reality it exist and IS INFINITE. Q to you then is do you believe that it is?



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 09:34 PM
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originally posted by: edmc^2

Of course it's logical for the simple fact that space is infinite and has always existed and uncreated. Unless of course you're telling me that there's no such thing as infinite space then you win. But the reality it exist and IS INFINITE. Q to you then is do you believe that it is?


I thought you said that the universe was finite???




In addition if you think about it, that is, if there's no such thing as the concept of INFINITY then we're left with what? Other than nothing, we're left with the FINITE. And what is FINITE but something that has a beginning or an end. Of course! Besides, "nothing" is also a form of infinity - infinite nothingness. And since the universe had a beginning so it follows that it's FINITE. Hence, it must then follow by necessity or by divine providence (in my case) a product of something bigger than "itself" - the INFINITE.



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 09:35 PM
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originally posted by: mOjOm
I have a problem understanding how you justify the claim that your God, Jehovah (or otherwise) is Infinite. He, God, does have certain attributes and characteristics which would limit him from being Infinite. For example he is said to be Jealous, Kind, Loving, Gracious, etc. However is he also Hateful, Spiteful, Angry, Mean, Deceptive, etc.??? If he is some of those and not others than how is he Infinite???


I think you're confusing attributes with existence. God is in infinite in that He always existed just as space and time always existed from his pov.

He is eternal in that he has no beginning or end. That's all I'm saying.



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 09:35 PM
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a reply to: mOjOm

I understood what I said, and if you don't, then that explains your original confusion in the first place.
To take your own ignorance and then use it to say my statements contradict each other is just furthering and a continuance of your own troubles, not mine.
Stop putting your own disbelief of things and turning them into ways to spite others, then maybe you will start understanding things better.



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 09:38 PM
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Is this your opinion or do you have evidence? If you have evidence, where's the data and the experiments? Rhetoric doesn't "prove" anything. It's just a hypothesis until reproducible evidence is presented.

So nice theory. Where's the beef??



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 09:38 PM
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He is creating nothing but philosophical mumbo jumbo apologetic waffle. He's not trying to find out how the Universe actually works, he's trolling to find justification for his existing beliefs - some interpretation of physics and the Bible that allows him to justify what he already believes to be true.

Ironically, many I.Ders see any confirmations of the fitness of the world for life as supporting evidence for supernatural design (fine tuned). Then they proceed to contradict themselves by arguing for the impossibility of a natural origin of life, and for the impossibility of the natural evolution of the Universe leading to complex creatures.

In other words, they argue that this world is fine tuned for life and isn't fine tuned for life. It's the classic Texas sharpshooter fallacy



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 09:39 PM
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originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: edmc^2

Of course it's logical for the simple fact that space is infinite and has always existed and uncreated. Unless of course you're telling me that there's no such thing as infinite space then you win. But the reality it exist and IS INFINITE. Q to you then is do you believe that it is?


I thought you said that the universe was finite???




In addition if you think about it, that is, if there's no such thing as the concept of INFINITY then we're left with what? Other than nothing, we're left with the FINITE. And what is FINITE but something that has a beginning or an end. Of course! Besides, "nothing" is also a form of infinity - infinite nothingness. And since the universe had a beginning so it follows that it's FINITE. Hence, it must then follow by necessity or by divine providence (in my case) a product of something bigger than "itself" - the INFINITE.


Again don't confuse space with the universe. Space is infinite in that it contains the physical universe. From the Big Bang to the present - the universe is expanding towards the infinite void - space.





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