My Scary Gun Weighs a Ton

Rate of fire trumps long range stopping power when you are talking about a school-shooting scenario. When was the last mass shooting you have witnessed that involved a lever action long gun?..

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originally posted by: Elton
Well apparently I missed the point of your thread. It seems we are discussing the ammo rather then the gun.

Both. The scary .223 'assault rifle' may kill you. The sentimental, wooden-stocked .308 will kill you.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Well in your scenario the lever action is more lethal, however, in the conditions I would expect to use an assault rifle I believe the assault rifle is a better choice of weapon.

originally posted by: LordGoofus
Most of the time it's close range, by unskilled or semi-skilled shooters. In that scenario the ability to let 30 rounds go in a short amount of time is way more dangerous than the ability to hit someone from 500 yards.

Agreed, but the contention I am making is that the .223 'assault weapon' is not nearly as lethal as the .308 hunting rifle.

At close quarters with an automatic accuracy becomes less of an issue because you're likely going to be in the middle of a group of people that have limited escape paths and are likely to be less than 100 yards away.

How did automatic weapons get into the mix? You are also creating scenarios where it is conducive for one weapon over another; limiting escape routes, densely occupied, etc. I am talking in general that the .308 is more lethal.

Can you shoot more people with a semi-automatic? Certainly. Will all of them be lethal? Probably not.

originally posted by: clay2 baraka
Rate of fire trumps long range stopping power when you are talking about a school-shooting scenario. When was the last mass shooting you have witnessed that involved a lever action long gun?

I would wager that if semi-automatic rifles were outlawed you would see people resort to the use of long guns to commit these crimes.

originally posted by: Elton
Well in your scenario the lever action is more lethal, however, in the conditions I would expect to use an assault rifle I believe the assault rifle is a better choice of weapon.

Understood. If I were inclined to go on a murderous rampage in a close quarters situation I would use a semi-automatic pistol or submachine gun over either one of the weapons presented in the Original Post.

The thought exercise was only to illustrate that if shot by the scary gun you would have a better chance of survival then if shot by the hunting rifle.

originally posted by: RickyD
Well to answer your question...this one is the best...and weighs a ton and a half (bout 15lbs)
POF 308 (Piston driven AR in .308)

Me likey. Unfortunately I would immediately be imprisoned here in New Jersey for possessing such a fine piece of machinery.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

I bet mine weighs more!


And yes, I open carry.

originally posted by: Elton

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
Now the question; which rifle is more 'dangerous'?

The ability to put more lead on your target in less time would make the AR-15 more dangerous than a bolt-action I would think. Size of projectile notwithstanding.

A pump shotgun will put more lead on target when the plug is pulled and its loaded with buck shot rounds.

1 12 gauge #4 buck shot will put 24 .24 inch dia pellets down range per round.

My old Mossberg’s 500 “Persuader” will put 7 rounds (168 pellets)down range as fast as i can pump and pull.

A remington 870 pump loaded with some rifled slugs is nasty.......nasty, nasty, nasty.

just sayin'

See, here in the wild west good old U. S. of A. it is a given that the surenos, nortenos, latin kings, bloods, crips, kkk, black panthers, cia, fbi, roaming bandits, sporadic lunatics, rapists, criminals, robbers, thieves, drug addicts, psychos and such, well, simply put, we citizens here KNOW they all abide by the gun laws, and we KNOW that if guns were banned, each and every one of the aforementioned groups, and myriad others, would make peace, I mean, I mean, yeah, they'd march right down to city hall and turn in those guns, and everybody would live in peace and harmony, circa 1968, smoke some weed, sing kumbya m'lord, kumbya.

As seen through my eyes, different weapons for different needs, flyswatter here on the table is deadly, deadly accurate

Personally, I think rate of fire only becomes a benefit in suppression fire or in much higher order weapons than any man is carrying around a battlefield. Speaking of which...I wonder what Jessie thinks about this question? Idle curiosity..but he was at least around the mini-gun off mounts in one movie I know of.

It's been my understanding that the venerable M-14 is still a weapon of choice among some U.S. units who get the freedom of choosing what they want to go out with.

originally posted by: Wrabbit2000
Idle curiosity..but he was at least around the mini-gun off mounts in one movie I know of.

I think Ole Painless was actually a propane operated prop.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus
Nope, it was a GE minigun modified to fire only blanks and weighed 80Lbs. Not a gun I would field nor would I use a Desert Eagle as a side arm.

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
Nope, it was a GE minigun modified to fire only blanks and weighed 80Lbs. Not a gun I would field nor would I use a Desert Eagle as a side arm.

Looked it up and you are correct. It also said they had to run the power cables up his pants leg since you need two car batteries to operate the weapon. Thanks.

a reply to: cavtrooper7

Thanks.. I thought I'd recalled reading it was a G.E. Minigun, but didn't wan't to go that far out on a limb without being positive. I know the minigun scene from Terminator 2 was shot on a mount with special effects to make it look right, but I'd assumed Predator had been using 1/4 load blanks at most on a modified set up. Even he isn't mighty enough to carry the real thing AND that ammo backpack AND fire the thing without a fail worthy of a Roadrunner cartoon, IMO. lol....

Hollywood does wonders with light springs and 1/4-1/2 load blanks, eh? Makes it look so smooth and stable to crank away on automatic fire.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

If you think .223 is "readily" available, you certainly don't know much about the ammunition market in the United States for the last 6 years. Also I've gone through 1/4 inch steel with jacketed .223's, they weren't even steel core and still penetrated fully. Finally if all you've got to go on is that the .308 is bigger than the .223, well then brother, what the Hell is your point? You obviously never handloaded. And finally, not to beat up on your bro, I would indeed call any AR type in my capable hands more deadly than any lever action you got, if you don't believe me....

originally posted by: motthoople
If you think .223 is "readily" available, you certainly don't know much about the ammunition market in the United States for the last 6 years.

I had no issues here in New Jersey with rifle ammunition. The major issue was more with pistol ammunition. I think this has more to do with the restrictions on semi-automatic rifles.

Also I've gone through 1/4 inch steel with jacketed .223's, they weren't even steel core and still penetrated fully.

And?

Finally if all you've got to go on is that the .308 is bigger than the .223, well then brother, what the Hell is your point?

That people who a prone to reactionary gun restrictions will see a 'scary' rifle (which happens to be chambered in .223) and think it is more lethal than a .308 rifle.

You obviously never handloaded.

Irrelevant to the Original Post as a hand loaded .308 will still be more lethal.

And finally, not to beat up on your bro, I would indeed call any AR type in my capable hands more deadly than any lever action you got, if you don't believe me....

If you say so.

The .308 definitely has more stopping power. I wouldn't use the .223 on a deer or boar. The gun with the most sniper kills is a Mosin-Nagant bolt-action rifle. You can get one for a couple hundred bucks and ammo is relatively cheap. For close range self defense a 12 gauge shotgun is all you need. Check out the AA-12. If I were in the military and could choose my weapon I'd go with that badboy.

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus
Nope, it was a GE minigun modified to fire only blanks and weighed 80Lbs. Not a gun I would field nor would I use a Desert Eagle as a side arm.

Oh good grief trooper the 4 foot muzzle flash of a short 50
would kill most people just from fright. I SAW that YouTube..
And you rhetorically learn something every day you check in:
since they made 50 or 60 of the .223 portables, I thought at
least one of them would shoot real ones. I'll be slammed.

That isn't just furniture by now Augustus, it's Early American.
I miss the '63 Sauer mutual bolt effort in big bore.. except my
shoulder. After it was gone three months I could write again.

originally posted by: derfreebie
That isn't just furniture by now Augustus, it's Early American.

So true. That rifle is older than me.