I would like to know about the returning Messiah.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Metaphor...blah,blah,blah, symbolic...blah,blah, blah.

Some people are psychologically incapable of getting metaphor, probably about 7% of the population, according to studies.
If you were one of these people, then you may not be an impartial judge of if something is metaphor or not.

You sound like a broken record.

As long as people keep posting erroneous salvation theories that endanger people from being lulled into a state of complacency.

God gave us His message, and He made it clear.

Jesus did, "Go and sin no more."

Side stepping the bible with pure symbolic interpretation will not change the truth.

Feel free to point out where you think I am doing that.

originally posted by: jazz10
This is short.

I have read various threads and posts regarding Jesus.

This thread is specifically directed at those who have contributed massively to other threads.

I genuinely would like to know.
Does Jesus know who he is?
Is he here now?
Does he know what he is capable of?
Is he an Aquarius?
Valentines Day?

Im intrigued. .......

Yes, Jesus knows who He is.
No, not here now.
Yes, He knows what He is capable of.
No, not an Aquarius.
Valentine's Day??? Huh???

I don't think you have read the Bible for what the Christians teach about the returning Messiah. Ten days before Shevuot, Jesus ascended back into heaven.

From Acts 1:

Acts 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

He's not going to be reborn, He is not going to be born as another, He went to heaven as He was and will return the same. He is returning in His full Messiahship.

John

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Jesus said He was coming back, after preparing a place for those who believe in Him.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

This is what the disciples believed and died for, not for themselves to be martyred, but that they saw Him ascending with the promise of returning. People can attempt to turn it into Gnosticism or other philosophy, but He promised to come back, naturally, and so that every person will see. Not as a baby, not as someone reborn, but as the Christ who ascended on the clouds.

When it really comes down to it, I dont think people would be aware of his presence until he made it known.

The first time around, our story-tellers never go into much detail before he starts his ministry. What leads up to this point is, largely, unknown. It could be the case the second time around as well, however, when he starts his ministry again, it should be blatant to at least some. In other words, I dont think anyone actually has the knowledge of where he is or the specifics that will lead up to whatever prophecy they feel will be fulfilled.

Judging by the replies in this thread though, so-called "Project Blue Beam" will be a massive hit.

a reply to: jmdewey60

Feel free to point out where you think I am doing that

Lets not be ridiculous. No one here has a finger big enough to point that out.

originally posted by: Serdgiam
When it really comes down to it, I dont think people would be aware of his presence until he made it known.

The first time around, our story-tellers never go into much detail before he starts his ministry. What leads up to this point is, largely, unknown. It could be the case the second time around as well, however, when he starts his ministry again, it should be blatant to at least some. In other words, I dont think anyone actually has the knowledge of where he is or the specifics that will lead up to whatever prophecy they feel will be fulfilled.

Judging by the replies in this thread though, so-called "Project Blue Beam" will be a massive hit.

He never ended His ministry.

I don't think people understand exactly what Christian doctrine is. Jesus is alive and well, right now, presently, at this moment, in heaven. He ministers by the Spirit, currently, presently, now, at this moment. Yes, we do know.

It's not too hard to figure out. When you go somewhere, do you return home as a different person? I mean, you still exist even though you aren't where you left from.

That's the whole point of resurrection, to come back to life. And the whole point of ascension was to come back again for those who believe. Of course, if you refuse to acknowledge the resurrection, then you have to create all kinds of theories.

He's coming back the same way He left, as the SAME person.

a reply to: WarminIndy

The doctrine may be universal, but its interpretation is far from it. Given that our perspective is solely founded on individual interpretation, the stories will vary.

None of what you said discounts what I said, for what its worth. Perhaps you do not understand my interpretation of events, view of the universe, God, or my interpretation of any given religion and its prophecies.

a reply to: WarminIndy

Jesus said He was coming back, after preparing a place for those who believe in Him.

That is explained later in the same chapter, that Jesus is talking about the church being the dwelling of God.
This is as opposed to how in the old system, there was one "house of God", and that was in Jerusalem.

John 14:23
Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
(2011 NIV)

So it is a spiritual dwelling and the "coming again" is metaphorical.

. . . but He promised to come back, naturally, and so that every person will see.

"Every eye will see" was a figure of speech back before global live TV, which meant that people would perceive in their minds that Jesus had returned, and that would have been in fulfillment of his "Son of Man" prophecy, which came about in 70 AD with the destruction of the Jerusalem temple, which would have been recognized after the earlier well known disaster by the Babylonians, as a judgment of God.

originally posted by: Serdgiam
a reply to: WarminIndy

The doctrine may be universal, but its interpretation is far from it. Given that our perspective is solely founded on individual interpretation, the stories will vary.

None of what you said discounts what I said, for what its worth. Perhaps you do not understand my interpretation of events, view of the universe, God, or my interpretation of any given religion and its prophecies.

For one to be a Christian believer, you have to accept that Jesus went away and is coming back the same way and as the same person.

Anything outside of that is not Christianity. It doesn't matter your interpretation or my interpretation, to be a Christian, one accepts and believes this core, fundamental teaching. I know it is really hard to believe that Jesus died on the cross as punishment for us, that He arose three days later, and forty days later ascended into heaven with the promise He would return. But that is the foundation of Christianity.

Stephen was stoned to death for that and yet as he was being stoned he said "I see Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father". He didn't say it was his interpretation, he believed it to his death, and at any time he could have recanted and been saved from being stoned.

Paul was there to witness Stephen's martyrdom. Stephen was the first Christian martyr who went to his death believing in the risen Christ. The disciples and apostles were all killed for their belief. This is the foundation of the Christian faith, so therefore, whatever interpretation you attach as meaning for you does not change the fact that in order to be a Christian, you must accept.

No matter what "spiritual" "allegorical" "metaphysical" "gnostic" interpretations one might add, the basic tenet is acceptance of the real event, of the real Jesus crucified, resurrected, ascended and returning. As I said, does not matter your insertion of your own interpretation, the crucified Christ is returning bodily. When you understand that, then the rest of the Bible interprets itself without your help.

I know it is hard to accept.

a reply to: WarminIndy

None of what you said is particularly relevant to what I am saying, but due to your interpretation/cultural story/narrative/etc. you obviously perceived them to be the right words for the occasion. God's creation is much more vast than your specific story.

We actually agree, for what its worth. Though, that might not make much sense to you. I am not the type to spend much time on contrarianism. Exploration, growth, and learning are more important to me. Dont expect much conversation from my end when there is nothing but limited perspectives arguing their slice of the pie is Absolute Truth.

God bless, WarminIndy.

a reply to: WarminIndy

the basic tenet is acceptance of the real event, of the real Jesus crucified, resurrected, ascended and returning. As I said, does not matter your insertion of your own interpretation, the crucified Christ is returning bodily. When you understand that, then the rest of the Bible interprets itself without your help.

"Returning bodily"?
The only thing that might give you that idea is in the beginning of the book of Acts.
The way I translate it, it is a description of how Jesus was not just going up in the sky, but was going to continue in that mode of transportation (riding on a cloud) until he gets all the way to Heaven.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: WarminIndy

the basic tenet is acceptance of the real event, of the real Jesus crucified, resurrected, ascended and returning. As I said, does not matter your insertion of your own interpretation, the crucified Christ is returning bodily. When you understand that, then the rest of the Bible interprets itself without your help.

"Returning bodily"?
The only thing that might give you that idea is in the beginning of the book of Acts.
The way I translate it, it is a description of how Jesus was not just going up in the sky, but was going to continue in that mode of transportation (riding on a cloud) until he gets all the way to Heaven.

Did He ascend bodily or not in front of the witnesses?

Did they watch a ghost go up? This SAME Jesus. That means THIS person, not another and certainly not in a different form.

Those witnesses, which some sources claim were 500, only 120 actually went to the Upper Room, at the command to go. But why would Stephen not recant his position, knowing it might save his life, if there were no reason to believe?

originally posted by: Serdgiam
a reply to: WarminIndy

None of what you said is particularly relevant to what I am saying, but due to your interpretation/cultural story/narrative/etc. you obviously perceived them to be the right words for the occasion. God's creation is much more vast than your specific story.

We actually agree, for what its worth. Though, that might not make much sense to you. I am not the type to spend much time on contrarianism. Exploration, growth, and learning are more important to me. Dont expect much conversation from my end when there is nothing but limited perspectives arguing their slice of the pie is Absolute Truth.

God bless, WarminIndy.

Of course it is a limited view, because it is a narrow way.

Certainly you can believe however you want, being caught by every wind of doctrine and be tossed about. I am compelled to take the narrow way.

a reply to: jmdewey60

Oh, you're one of those "go back to the Greek people". Well, I guess in order to read the "real" Gospel of Jesus Christ, everyone must learn Greek. I don't care what the Greek says, because I speak English and I read the Bible that has been translated into English. I also trust that God is more than capable of preserving His holy Word, regardless of what language it is written in.

a reply to: WarminIndy

Did He ascend bodily or not in front of the witnesses?

That is not even what I was talking about.
"In this same way" in the Acts story was about the "way" that he was leaving, which was being taken up by a "cloud" that was somehow able to carry him.
They saw him go from just standing there, to being in the air above them, apparently because a cloud had picked him up.

What the men in white clothes were talking about was the way that he went from where he stood, to the point where he was out of sight, way up there, too far away to be seen any more.
They told the disciples basically, "Don't bother standing there looking up any more because that cloud will continue taking him up to go all the way to heaven."

What the standard Bible version translators do is take part of the sentence out to change the meaning so that it sounds like Jesus is going to come here, even thought it does not specify "here".
If he was coming here, why would the men in white clothes suggest not bothering to look up any more?
They were suggesting not looking because he wasn't coming back here, but was going to Heaven.

a reply to: OptimusSubprime

Oh, you're one of those "go back to the Greek people".

I suppose that you mean that I am a person who believes in "going back to the Greek".
It isn't "going back".
It is reading it as it was written, before the translators went to work on the text to make it come out supporting existing church doctrine.

Well, I guess in order to read the "real" Gospel of Jesus Christ, everyone must learn Greek.

Are you saying that you don't?
It seems very silly to me that anyone is going to expound on supposedly Bible based Christian doctrine without bothering to look at the original text, even if it means reading Greek.

I don't care what the Greek says, because I speak English and I read the Bible that has been translated into English.

That explains a lot.

I also trust that God is more than capable of preserving His holy Word, regardless of what language it is written in.

So then you probably believe in God somehow doing the translating, too, rather than the scholars who King James commissioned to do it.

Which Messiah? There have been many throughout history.

Jesus, Maitreya, Krishna, Isa, Horus, Heracles........? Which one would you like to know about?

I personally believe the "Messiah" has already come to many people on an individual basis. He's not going to come down from the sky and obliterate all non-believers or save believers, he's going to come from within through gnosis, or understanding of self.

When you find yourself, who you truly are, you are saved from death because then you realize you are eternal and always have been. We are the source expressing itself from infinite viewpoints, what we are inside, LIFE itself, cannot be extinguished. Life will always go on meaning that we will go on even after death.

How can we go on after death? In the same way that someone else will continue to exist after we die and others will continue to be born. We are all different iterations of the same thing, meaning we will all continue after death because life will continue.

The bible says that "every eye will see him", well every eye already sees him, it's just that not every eye understands this yet. What we see is the utmost expression of life because we rely so heavily on sight to stay alive. If you can see the light, you have life, if you have life then you have already been saved from death which means the Messiah is here with you right now because the Messiah is "the truth, the way, and the LIFE".

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: WarminIndy

Did He ascend bodily or not in front of the witnesses?

That is not even what I was talking about.
"In this same way" in the Acts story was about the "way" that he was leaving, which was being taken up by a "cloud" that was somehow able to carry him.
They saw him go from just standing there, to being in the air above them, apparently because a cloud had picked him up.

What the men in white clothes were talking about was the way that he went from where he stood, to the point where he was out of sight, way up there, too far away to be seen any more.
They told the disciples basically, "Don't bother standing there looking up any more because that cloud will continue taking him up to go all the way to heaven."

What the standard Bible version translators do is take part of the sentence out to change the meaning so that it sounds like Jesus is going to come here, even thought it does not specify "here".
If he was coming here, why would the men in white clothes suggest not bothering to look up any more?
They were suggesting not looking because he wasn't coming back here, but was going to Heaven.

It doesn't answer the question that is fundamental in Christian teaching.

Did Jesus ascend bodily or not?

As a Christian, you should be able to answer that. If you do not believe Jesus resurrected bodily and then ascended bodily, then you aren't Christian according to Christian teaching.

Christianity was founded on that and you don't need Greek to understand it.

a reply to: WarminIndy

It doesn't answer the question that is fundamental in Christian teaching.
Did Jesus ascend bodily or not?
As a Christian, you should be able to answer that. If you do not believe Jesus resurrected bodily and then ascended bodily, then you aren't Christian according to Christian teaching.
Christianity was founded on that and you don't need Greek to understand it.

You sound like a self-appointed inquisition.
Obviously Jesus had some sort of resurrected version of a body.
What I was originally responding to was the idea that there is a "bodily" return.
As opposed to some other sort of return, I suppose.
As I mentioned in my earlier post, the only way to support a "bodily return" is by using some reasoning based on the story in Acts of the message from the men dressed in white clothing.
What I did was to take that message apart to analyze what it is saying.
My conclusion being that it isn't talking about any sort of "return".
If it meant a return, it would have said so.
I also posted that there is a return mentioned by Jesus in John that is not, obviously, about a "bodily" return.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
Of course it is a limited view, because it is a narrow way.

All ways are limited, regardless of how "divine" you feel they are. Limitation is not based on path, it is based on the fact that we are not omniscient. Your path is filled with judgment and assumption. You may not be walking on the path you thought you were.

Certainly you can believe however you want, being caught by every wind of doctrine and be tossed about. I am compelled to take the narrow way.

Interesting that you seem to know my beliefs. Is it because of past experiences with others? I have certainly never shared my actual beliefs on this site, so I would be interested to know how you can judge.

Which doctrines do I follow?

If you cant answer correctly, then your path is not what you think it is.

a reply to: Serdgiam

If you cant answer correctly, then your path is not what you think it is.

Is this a test of psychic abilities?
Do you think someone has to read minds to be right about doctrines?
"Right" in that regard is about what you subscribe to and is disconnected from actual objective truth, so is not dependent on special powers to discern a hidden reality.
I don't think that God gives us His spirit to perform magic with.
What God wants is for people to be good, which is by having a functioning conscience and a motivation to follow it.
Those things are the fruit of the spirit.
You seem to have an unorthodox version of Jesus which is probably the source of negativity to your posts.
Personally, I see people who think they are independent are actually using as their starting point, already existing church doctrine, so it automatically will set off this sort of reaction because it is just recognizable enough to see how it has been morphed to come up with the resulting product.