Wake Up World: The Rise Of Fascism in Europe.

I do not see a rise in fascism in Europe. I think the word “fascist” is as badly misused as the term “racist”. This misuse of words diminishes their importance and weight and does not contribute anything to a constructive debate.

What we have in the UK and France specifically, is a reaction to problems of immigration which successive governments have done bugger all about resolving. France is suffering from riotous ghettos of mainly North Africans unable to integrate with the secular and liberal society. In the UK it is more about eastern Europeans but there are also large numbers of other nationals who (like in France) have absolutely zero cultural association with liberal western society – 100,000 Somalis anyone? You just need to read the stories in the UK about forced marriages, segregation of women and female genital mutilation to understand how alien some cultures are.

Not fascism or racism, but normal people voting to send a message.

Regards

a reply to: Wirral Bagpuss

Is it racist to be concerned your country is being over run by immigrants mostly illegal, or your culture is being distorted by the racist Muslim clerics who want to convert or kill you. perhaps they are a bit to far to the right, perhaps they are watching America fall into the abyss, America cannot be destroyed from the exterior but we will devour ourselves. The EU is watching maybe they are right.

I'm on the fence with this. I think UKIP are genuinely becoming a threat, but not in the way the media are saying. The threat is to the establishment. They need the current Etonian governments in power to maintain their elitist status in society. The corporations are all in the pockets of them. I am sure though given time, if UKIP are in power, they will give into the corruption and sell out their principles, just like the Lib Dems did.

I don't like what I have heard about UKIP, but I have not had any direct interaction with UKIP so I cannot possibly know if what I am told about them is true. I assume that there is some truth to it, after all, there are idiots with outrageous views in every party, something people are always convenient to forget. But to judge everyone based on the actions of a few is ignorant and wrong, and exactly the kind of thing the same people claim to be against.

Personally I don't believe that UKIP will do any better for the country than any of the current parties. They will screw people over in order to maintain their status, the Tories screw the poor and the vulnerable for the benefit of the rich. This is equally as evil as any alleged racism that UKIP are supposed to dispense upon election. In fact it's more evil because the sick, the disabled, the vulnerable are not in an ideal, if any, position to fight back against it.

Labour screwed over other nations and future generations so they could prosper. More of the same will happen no doubt if they are re-elected next year. And the Lib Dem's proved they care more about power than their policies, by turning their backs on their voters and reneging on their promises. Something they have paid for dearly and put UKIP in the position they currently hold.

Immigration, namely the abuse of it, is an issue that needs addressing, and there will be no simple, easy, painless solution. To blame UKIP if they do have a way to deal with it is plain wrong considering its the previous governments that got us in this mess in the first place.

Immigration in itself has proved a useful and valuable addition to British society and culture. People need to remember this and not lose sight of it. And many of the people that are identified as "immigrants" were born here, so they should be treated exactly like any other person born in the UK.

Currently the only fascist state in Europe is Russia.

Fascism does not mean objecting to uncontrolled immigration. It does not even mean disliking those of different ethnic origin. UKIP are no more fascist than are the Australians.

Fascism is about total state contol, the oppression of all political and popular rivals and the supression of free media. Absolute control by an authoritairan state, itself controlled by one person or a small elite group of people, and the arrest, removal and imprisonment of all dissenting voices.

a reply to: Firefly_

Excellent post.

The major political parties have failed this country and its people.
Their primary concerns are maintaining the status quo that they exploit to the full to further their own goals and agenda's at the expense of their constituents whose interests they are supposed to represent.

The system needs a radical overhaul.

Immigration has indeed been of massive benefit to this country and has enabled it to continue to grow and develop.
But the ongoing open door policy has seen the growth in immigrants who have no desire to integrate and have nothing but contempt for the traditions, values and cultural identity of their foster nation - in fact they are antithesis of such things.

And there are genuine concerns over the effect of the influx of large numbers of Eastern European immigrants.

The complete unwillingness of the major political parties to even enter into serious discussions over these issues and their casual dismissal of peoples genuine cares and concerns only serves to drive people towards UKIP.
Their arrogance knows no bounds.

If in the aftermath of the recent EU elections Ed Miliband had publicly stated something like 'we are obviously out of step with a growing number of people in UK on some important issues. We are going to go away, re-assess our policies and thinking in these areas and hopefully develop a series of proposals that can begin to address these important issues', he would be an absolute shoe-in in next years election.
But instead he replied with nothing but contemptuous disdain and blatantly refused to discuss these issues.

If 'None of the above' was an option it'd win by a massive landslide.

originally posted by: paraphi
I do not see a rise in fascism in Europe. I think the word “fascist” is as badly misused as the term “racist”. This misuse of words diminishes their importance and weight and does not contribute anything to a constructive debate.

What we have in the UK and France specifically, is a reaction to problems of immigration which successive governments have done bugger all about resolving. France is suffering from riotous ghettos of mainly North Africans unable to integrate with the secular and liberal society. In the UK it is more about eastern Europeans but there are also large numbers of other nationals who (like in France) have absolutely zero cultural association with liberal western society – 100,000 Somalis anyone? You just need to read the stories in the UK about forced marriages, segregation of women and female genital mutilation to understand how alien some cultures are.

Not fascism or racism, but normal people voting to send a message.

Regards

If you truly believe that I feel sorry for you. Le Pen of Front National made outrageous comments about a well known French celebrity which invoked the Holocaust. If that is not Faschist I don't know what is. UKIP wants to end maternity pay, the minimum wage for example. I don't like that and I don't like what they are saying about how to address the issues of immigration. God help us all if they got into power. I shudder to think what they would do. We MUST stand up to the ignorance of the masses and speak out against them.

originally posted by: Wirral Bagpuss
If you truly believe that I feel sorry for you. Le Pen of Front National ...

These people do not represent a rise of fascism in Europe. The Le Pen clan has been chugging along since the 1970s and 10 years ago Jean-Marie Le Pen got c. 20% in the Presidential elections. No big shakes and not fascist. Right wing yes.

originally posted by: Wirral Bagpuss
UKIP wants to end maternity pay, the minimum wage for example. I don't like that and I don't like what they are saying about how to address the issues of immigration.

I'm no fan of UKIP, so I looked up their manifesto. Nothing about minimum wage or maternity pay. Sounds a bit Daily Mail to me unless you can back up what you are saying. On immigration. Their policies are not fascist or racist as far as I can see.

originally posted by: Wirral Bagpuss
We MUST stand up to the ignorance of the masses and speak out against them.

You may find that the ignorant masses are less ignorant that you want to believe. It's a bit of a patronising view and (forgive me for saying) a bit of an insult.

Regards

originally posted by: AndyMayhew
Currently the only fascist state in Europe is Russia.

Fascism does not mean objecting to uncontrolled immigration. It does not even mean disliking those of different ethnic origin. UKIP are no more fascist than are the Australians.

Fascism is about total state contol, the oppression of all political and popular rivals and the supression of free media. Absolute control by an authoritairan state, itself controlled by one person or a small elite group of people, and the arrest, removal and imprisonment of all dissenting voices.

Yes, but it only takes one to get their foot in the door. The likes of UKIP for example will only be a bridge towards even more undesirable parties coming into the mainstream political arena. We have to make a stand NOW and say NO NO NO

a reply to: Wirral Bagpuss

We MUST stand up to the ignorance of the masses and speak out against them.

What exactly do you mean by this?
Seems pretty damned ominous to me and quite authoritarian.

Yes, but it only takes one to get their foot in the door.

But if that's what the electorate vote for......

The likes of UKIP for example will only be a bridge towards even more undesirable parties coming into the mainstream political arena.

And how do you know that?
Who defines 'who' or 'what' are 'undesirable parties'?

We have to make a stand NOW and say NO NO NO

Okay.....what are you actually going to do?
What should 'we' do?

I voted UKIP in the euro elections, because we need to take back our own laws and have an immigration policy like the Australians.
Sure they have racist members just the same as every other party but seeing they do not have the funds of the main parties they can not vet their members as well as the others.

I have noticed the media attacking UKIP (under instructions from the torys I think) and when a member left it was all Paxman could witter on about despite the other parties having 13 MP's questioned in the same week to do with various criminal proceedings.



I think he is right, the people who we vote for do not make the laws anymore the Euros do.

Whatever "plans" you got, make sure you don't let the guys with ties to extreme left sectors in other parts of the world win. Unless you don't mind the killings but who does them.

originally posted by: Wirral Bagpuss

originally posted by: AndyMayhew
Currently the only fascist state in Europe is Russia.

Fascism does not mean objecting to uncontrolled immigration. It does not even mean disliking those of different ethnic origin. UKIP are no more fascist than are the Australians.

Fascism is about total state contol, the oppression of all political and popular rivals and the supression of free media. Absolute control by an authoritairan state, itself controlled by one person or a small elite group of people, and the arrest, removal and imprisonment of all dissenting voices.

Yes, but it only takes one to get their foot in the door. The likes of UKIP for example will only be a bridge towards even more undesirable parties coming into the mainstream political arena. We have to make a stand NOW and say NO NO NO

You are against UKIP, who really are an unknown quantity right now. I have no faith in politics so I am fully expecting them to be no better than the current crop of self-serving corrupt governments. But can they REALLY be any worse?

Look at the track record of the past 30 years of Tory, Labour and ConDem governments. Thatcher sold us out to the corporations. Blair sold our futures, rampaged through the middle east for corporate gain, and opened the immigration floodgates. And the poor, the sick, the disabled and otherwise marginalised in society are being robbed of what little they have by the current regime - but, Labour also laid down the groundwork for this so they are fully complicit.

UKIP are a symptom of the short-sighted corrupt policies of the past 30+ years of misrule. Don't forget, the media is controlled by government sponsors, so they will do all they can to portray UKIP in a negative light, because the reality is they are deadly afraid of what UKIP can do if elected. They are an unknown quantity. For all we know, they could have integrity and stick to their guns, have solid policies and turn this country around. But if they did that, it would more than likely knock down the house of cards the current dictators have built. This of course is a best case scenario - in the real world its likely they will just simply be bought out as I mentioned in my previous post.

So yes make a stand, say no to corrupt politics, but if you vote for any of the above, then you are not making a stand at all. You are voting for the status quo, which has caused all the harm we are currently enduring.

a reply to: Wirral Bagpuss

As does every party... If you like, I can furnish links to show that Labour, Tory and just about every party at one time or another has had some idiot candidate uttering some questionable nonsense, be it racist or homophobic or anything else UKIP seems to get tarred with.

In fact, I think I will provide them anyway, whether you like it or not.

Labour candidate suspended for homophobic remarks

Tory part Councillors suspended for racist "joke e-mail"

Tory suspended for racist remarks

La bour Peer suspended for "anti semitic" remarks

Just a few examples, but highlights the fact when you have a large amount of people in a group, you can bet at least some of them are pillocks.

Instead of focussing on the individual pillocks, or worse yet, branding anyone who voted UKIP as a "fascist" (typical left-wing response, I might add) you should be providing proof as to why the PARTY is racist.

originally posted by: Wirral Bagpuss
If that is not Faschist I don't know what is. .

Evidently, you don't even know what fascism is. There is a world of difference between being right-wing and being a fascist. You sound like those UAF morons who (ironically) use fascist tactics to shut down anyone who they disagree with.

originally posted by: Wirral Bagpuss
I shudder to think what they would do. We MUST stand up to the ignorance of the masses and speak out against them.

Ironic - promoting a fascist response in order to combat "fascism".....

Surely, the whole point of democracy is to provide a Government that the people vote for. Yet, you seem to be advocating silencing the voice of the people because you don't like what they have to say, in order to "protect" them....

FYI, this is fascism:

Fascist ideology consistently invokes the primacy of the state. Fascism borrowed theories and terminology from socialism but replaced socialism's focus on class conflict with a focus on conflict between nations and races. Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky to secure national self-sufficiency and independence through protectionist and interventionist economic policies.

or

any ideology or movement inspired by Italian Fascism, such as German National Socialism; any right-wing nationalist ideology or movement with an authoritarian and hierarchical structure that is fundamentally opposed to democracy and liberalism

So, surely, your opposition to the democratic will of the people is, by definition, fascist....

originally posted by: Freeborn
If in the aftermath of the recent EU elections Ed Miliband had publicly stated something like 'we are obviously out of step with a growing number of people in UK on some important issues. We are going to go away, re-assess our policies and thinking in these areas and hopefully develop a series of proposals that can begin to address these important issues', he would be an absolute shoe-in in next years election.
But instead he replied with nothing but contemptuous disdain and blatantly refused to discuss these issues.

Indeed - He simply doesn't "get it". He keeps parroting the party line of "if more powers are transferred", he'll have a referendum, but it is the status quo that is the problem and people are unhappy with. I think it is on this point alone he is going to lose a good many votes to UKIP next year and, unlike Tory voters who pipped for UKIP in these latest elections, Labour one's don't seem to want to come back.

At least the Tories have passed legislation already to pave the way for a referendum and are leading the pack when it comes to trying to reform the EU. Labour have totally lost touch with reality.

a reply to: Wirral Bagpuss

"Racists" is a word invented by Trotsky. He uses it to discredit his political enemies. It's something that the left have adopted. The right is no more racists than the left. That's not something u should worry about, it's all political bs.

From what I can tell Europe is going bankrupt and on a decline from decades of leftist rule. People are fed up so not they are moving further to the right. It's a good this since they have move too far left that it has led them to failure.

The right is nationalist they put the country first and the are all about free enterprise.

The left are internationalists. The believe in world wide communism like Stalin because redistribution won't work if your neighbors don't practice the same ideals. Otherwise your country will decline and free market countries will rise, so everyone must adopt socialism for it to work in their belief system.

I would think the right will be the best option for your country.

Fascists are really leftists. They are statists and believe in big government, so they can control the people. The right does not believe in big government. Instead they believe in limited government, the free market, and the individual discovered during the enlightenment period.

The oligarchy is afraid of far right groups due the to the belief of the individual. They need centralize government for control. That's why the right typically gets little donations. Big business can't cheat with limited government. Big business needs big government to write their laws for them.

a reply to: Wirral Bagpuss

I genuinely believe this whole thing has been massively overplayed in the media (surprise surprise). If you actually look at voter turn out figures, they are even lower than normal. What this shows is that there isn't a major lurch to the right in Europe - instead it shows that generally speaking, people over Europe couldn't be bothered to vote for the Euro elections. Basically, if voter turn out reflected that of domestic elections within Europe then UKIP et all would have been trounced. Voter apathy allowed this, rather than an upturn in far right beliefs.

All the available data really does demonstrate this but this seems to be overlooked by the msm. I suppose then that the question should be why is this data being overlooked? Trying to create an agenda perhaps?

originally posted by: Flavian
a reply to: Wirral Bagpuss

I genuinely believe this whole thing has been massively overplayed in the media (surprise surprise). If you actually look at voter turn out figures, they are even lower than normal. What this shows is that there isn't a major lurch to the right in Europe - instead it shows that generally speaking, people over Europe couldn't be bothered to vote for the Euro elections. Basically, if voter turn out reflected that of domestic elections within Europe then UKIP et all would have been trounced. Voter apathy allowed this, rather than an upturn in far right beliefs.

All the available data really does demonstrate this but this seems to be overlooked by the msm. I suppose then that the question should be why is this data being overlooked? Trying to create an agenda perhaps?

Ha! And that is what they said in 1930 for example. And once Hitler became chancellor, that was the death knell for Europe. We need to stop this NOW before it is too late.

originally posted by: amfirst1
a reply to: Wirral Bagpuss

"Racists" is a word invented by Trotsky. He uses it to discredit his political enemies. It's something that the left have adopted. The right is no more racists than the left. That's not something u should worry about, it's all political bs.

From what I can tell Europe is going bankrupt and on a decline from decades of leftist rule. People are fed up so not they are moving further to the right. It's a good this since they have move too far left that it has led them to failure.

The right is nationalist they put the country first and the are all about free enterprise.

The left are internationalists. The believe in world wide communism like Stalin because redistribution won't work if your neighbors don't practice the same ideals. Otherwise your country will decline and free market countries will rise, so everyone must adopt socialism for it to work in their belief system.

I would think the right will be the best option for your country.

Fascists are really leftists. They are statists and believe in big government, so they can control the people. The right does not believe in big government. Instead they believe in limited government, the free market, and the individual discovered during the enlightenment period.

The oligarchy is afraid of far right groups due the to the belief of the individual. They need centralize government for control. That's why the right typically gets little donations. Big business can't cheat with limited government. Big business needs big government to write their laws for them.

Racisim existed long before Trotsky was on the political map. One only has to look at the slavery that existed up till the 1860s in USA as an example. And that lasted until 1960s. So please, don't try and make out racist attitudes is a relatively recent thing, because it is not.

originally posted by: Wirral Bagpuss

originally posted by: amfirst1
a reply to: Wirral Bagpuss

"Racists" is a word invented by Trotsky. He uses it to discredit his political enemies. It's something that the left have adopted. The right is no more racists than the left. That's not something u should worry about, it's all political bs.

From what I can tell Europe is going bankrupt and on a decline from decades of leftist rule. People are fed up so not they are moving further to the right. It's a good this since they have move too far left that it has led them to failure.

The right is nationalist they put the country first and the are all about free enterprise.

The left are internationalists. The believe in world wide communism like Stalin because redistribution won't work if your neighbors don't practice the same ideals. Otherwise your country will decline and free market countries will rise, so everyone must adopt socialism for it to work in their belief system.

I would think the right will be the best option for your country.

Fascists are really leftists. They are statists and believe in big government, so they can control the people. The right does not believe in big government. Instead they believe in limited government, the free market, and the individual discovered during the enlightenment period.

The oligarchy is afraid of far right groups due the to the belief of the individual. They need centralize government for control. That's why the right typically gets little donations. Big business can't cheat with limited government. Big business needs big government to write their laws for them.

Racisim existed long before Trotsky was on the political map. One only has to look at the slavery that existed up till the 1860s in USA as an example. And that lasted until 1960s. So please, don't try and make out racist attitudes is a relatively recent thing, because it is not.

Slavery lasted until the 1960`s?What parallel universe are you from?