Can any Christians answer this?

I'll tell you whut.

God exists. He/she's in all of us. But there is no external omnipresent evil/nice protector. The bible was written by men a few hundred years after Jesus died and millennia after the Earth was created

The Earth is older than 6000 years. There is irrefutable evidence that proves this and endless speculation based off of a fictional book to try and disprove it. Evolution is provable through direct observation of bacteria and single celled organisms. And the reason that we still have apes and monkeys is that we shared a common ancestor. Shared being a keyword because the second humans as we know them got the first evolutionary mutation, the chimpanzees and apes stayed the same while we changed. WE DID NOT GROW FROM MONKEYS TO HUMAN OVERNIGHT YOU STUPID CREATIONIST IDIOTS, WE DID IT OVER MILLIONS OF YEARS

I don't claim to know how humans came to be. I don't claim to know how the Earth or Universe was created. I do know that the Bible is a book and not the word of God. The true word of god could never be written down because it's in all of us and can't be written down

Just to clarify to everyone, Im now thinking I didnt make my reason for these 2 questions quite clear.

I really dont know exactly the answers, and im sure no one does know for sure.
BUT...

What I am interested in (hence this thread), is how can someone deny the knowledge of another, and yet when asked to present evidence/cause of belief they cannot, but still stick to thier guns.

I wont believe something that cannot be proven, and I understand was the concept of faith is, but for a christian to deny that science may have proven that the earth is at least X amount years old, and yet not have ANY reason for denying this doesnt make sense.

So Why/how can someone say that the earth isnt AT LEAST X amount of years old?

There is a significant amount of evidence/proof that the earth is over, say, 1 million years old, but christianaty generally cannot accept this..
WHY????????

This is where the conversation with my farther started to drift onto other topics, and when I steered the convo back, it kept changing.

Now I must say that I am in NO WAY mocking/down grading religion/faith, but I am really interested in how someone can believe something, but yet not know why they believe it.

originally posted by: jester420

Now I must say that I am in NO WAY mocking/down grading religion/faith, but I am really interested in how someone can believe something, but yet not know why they believe it.

Because belief is the antithesis of knowing.To believe is to not know,and to know is to not believe.There is nothing that can be proved inconclusively.The very construct of existence itself cannot.Of course this will always lead to false conclusions.If the premise is faulty even correct math calculations will be incorrect in relation to the construct.

It is the core of the main dilemma of existence itself.Where do we(the physical realm/universe) come from and how.The law of cause and effect is the foundation for "knowing" how but probably nowhere.The law of cause and effec is every effect had a cause however the Big Bang "theory" says there was no cause only effect.The logic from there proposes then something "caused" the Big Bang(if it was in fact a big bang).

10 years ago an astrophysicist would be labeled a kook if they suggested that there was a cause before the Big Bang where as today the majority "believe" (even some of those that were the major proponents of BB) that is the foundation of a more sensible solution however as usual there is not much mutual agreement on the details.

If the basis of that new paradigm is true it is "futile" to speculate what the origin is because it was not in this realm.It is unobservable.Believing the Earth is 6,000 is even more of a futile belief. No amount of "faith" or study will ever change that fact.

originally posted by: jester420
................................
Now I must say that I am in NO WAY mocking/down grading religion/faith, but I am really interested in how someone can believe something, but yet not know why they believe it.

Because belief is the antithesis of knowing.To believe is to not know,and to know is to not believe.There is nothing that can be proved inconclusively.The very construct of existence itself cannot.Of course this will always lead to false conclusions.If the premise is faulty even correct math calculations will be incorrect in relation to the construct.

It is the core of the main dilemma of existence itself.Where do we(the physical realm/universe) come from and how.The law of cause and effect is the foundation for "knowing" how but probably not where.The law of cause and effect is every effect had a cause however the Big Bang "theory" says there was no cause only effect.The logic from there proposes then something "caused" the Big Bang(if it was in fact a big bang).

10 years ago an astrophysicist would be labeled a kook if they suggested that there was a cause before the Big Bang where as today the majority "believe" (even some of those that were the major proponents of BB) that is the foundation of a more sensible solution however as usual there is not much mutual agreement on the details.

If the basis of that new paradigm is true it is "futile" to speculate what the origin is because it was not in this realm.It is unobservable.Believing the Earth is 6,000 is even more of a futile belief. No amount of "faith" or study will ever change that fact.

originally posted by: jester420
Just to clarify to everyone, Im now thinking I didnt make my reason for these 2 questions quite clear.

I really dont know exactly the answers, and im sure no one does know for sure.
BUT...

What I am interested in (hence this thread), is how can someone deny the knowledge of another, and yet when asked to present evidence/cause of belief they cannot, but still stick to thier guns.

I wont believe something that cannot be proven, and I understand was the concept of faith is, but for a christian to deny that science may have proven that the earth is at least X amount years old, and yet not have ANY reason for denying this doesnt make sense.

So Why/how can someone say that the earth isnt AT LEAST X amount of years old?

There is a significant amount of evidence/proof that the earth is over, say, 1 million years old, but christianaty generally cannot accept this..
WHY????????

This is where the conversation with my farther started to drift onto other topics, and when I steered the convo back, it kept changing.

Now I must say that I am in NO WAY mocking/down grading religion/faith, but I am really interested in how someone can believe something, but yet not know why they believe it.

There is a significant amount of evidence...

originally posted by: jester420
a reply to: yeahright

But isnt this book all Christians really have to base thier religion on?
Wouldnt that make everything else anecdotal?
I honestly think that every time Christianaty conflicts with science, and outright rejects it, shouldnt their be some substance in this book?

originally posted by: yeahright
The bible is spiritual, not carnal and not literal.

So simple .. and yet so true. If only people understood and accepted that .. a lot of antagonistic denominational problems would go away.

originally posted by: Rex282

originally posted by: jester420

Now I must say that I am in NO WAY mocking/down grading religion/faith, but I am really interested in how someone can believe something, but yet not know why they believe it.

Because belief is the antithesis of knowing.To believe is to not know,and to know is to not believe.There is nothing that can be proved inconclusively.The very construct of existence itself cannot.Of course this will always lead to false conclusions.If the premise is faulty even correct math calculations will be incorrect in relation to the construct.

I respectfully disagree.

Have you met the parents who know what their children are like and believe in their childrens' ability for the future?
There are many things I know and believe, and if I don't know it, I don't have any obligation to believe it. Actually, the Bible is very clear in the moral lesson of searching for knowledge, it is a fundamental concept in the Bible. Yes, we are taught to walk by faith and not by sight, because you simply can't know everything there is to know. But seek after wisdom and knowledge so that you may believe.

The old saying is "ignorance is bliss". People will believe a lie and never know why it is a lie. I've lived long enough to know this is true and believe that people are ignorant. And you can't lay this at the feet of religious people, because in the religion I know and believe, I am not to be ignorant. There is an expectation in the Bible to not be ignorant.

Proverbs 2:1 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;

2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;

3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;

4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;

5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God.

There simply are too many verses to present here about wisdom and knowledge. The point is, knowing is not opposite of believing, it is in the believing in what you don't know is true that leads you to wrong judgement.

Why do scientists do experiments? Is it because they don't know or they don't believe? Everyone believes in something whether they know it is true or not. They can believe apples fall but they want to know why. But they still believe apples fall.

a reply to: LABTECH767

I think Jesus, the Buddha, and Mohammad were all what we refer to as Messiahs. They established a link with god. Others can do this, but their beliefs get in their way. Their knowledge also gets in the way. We have been conditioned to make sure another Messiah will never be realized.

Now, we have huge expectations of a Messiah, when in fact being a Messiah just means you have a link to a supreme being that guides you to a life of righteousness. A life of bonding to everything in the world. Now I believe this supreme being can control all of nature and target groups that are destroying the earth. Are the disasters we are experiencing actually caused by global warming, or they a response to us altering the crust of the earth...the provider of life on this planet. Now if a person could link to the collective consiousness...or god...that person could cause a lot of disasters to pile up. If all the fish in the ocean lined up and wagged their tails at the same time in the same direction, what would happen. If all the bugs suddenly attacked people in an area, what would happen. If all the dogs attacked their owners what would happen. If all the microbes in us decided to eat us what would happen. What would happen if all the people that could link to this communication decided to attack those who were evil, greedy, powerhungry, and self centered The people who deceive others would not like to be targeted, they have controlled this world for a long time. Don't get me wrong, some people we think of as greedy are also linked, they have been collecting stuff in case something like this happens. We really cannot judge because we do not have all the knowledge of this supreme being.

How does god work. We are taught to disregard a persons ability unless they can heal someone of an incurable disease immediately. But even though Jesus was said to have healed, he was crucified.

We are told by some that religion is not good yet our societies require this bond to hold us together. No man is an island. If everyone is just out for themselves, what would this country be like. Uniting behind truth is essential to a proper society. But the conditioning of deceit is strong here, I wonder if it is better in other countries.

God is the word...the word is a communication link amongst all life everywhere. That means all life is part of god. This link powers our DNA and helps us to survive. If this link is broken we start to fall apart and disease will occur. Some call it vibration that powers this, this is true, but how do we get to vibrating at the right frequency, our subconscious guides us to eat certain foods. That is if we have tasted them. Now, man isolates himself from the earth with shoes so the energy does not flow through him. This keeps him isolated from what is really necessary. Take off your shoes and walk the lakeshore, making sure not to step on some sharp glass or garbage, and feel the energy flowing through you, this energy has structure formed by life. It flows back and forth from the earth and sky. There is only one link, one god, but there are many aspects of this link. Tie to the fish and you understand the fish. Tie to deceit and you accept it as reality. Now there are problems in all religions but we should not condemn them, just try to steer them on the right path. Some sects of religion are so corrupted that they cannot be fixed, these should be abandoned.

So who am I to say this, just another mouse in the field.

a reply to: rickymouse

I know and admire what you are saying but for me only two of them are in the same room and only one the messiah but then I suppose my opinion is shaped by my faith in Christ and my own Jewish ancestry but nevertheless this is a similar and very good video hosted by Charlton Heston called forbidden archaeology they hidden history of man and goes over much of the same information as that site you found enjoyable, it is about 48 minutes long but well worth watching.
www.youtube.com...
I suppose this information would be enough to shake any religious view (even the supposed scientific one - that being the inflexible one).
You will enjoy that video though I suspect you have already seen it.
And of course as you quite rightly point out do we really know anything.
Touch the mountains and they will smoke, level the mountains and turn the hills into valleys and the valleys into mountains, this happens over a great time according to our view of geology but then the bible talks about it as though it can happen in a short space of time,.
One roman historian (sorry I can not recall as I read this many years ago) spoke about how during an earthquake a petrified boat fell out of rock on the apien way and one general recorded how while he was staging manouverys in the sky above them an army was seen to be doing battle (not ufo more like ghosts or a window in time).
Jim Irwin a Apollo astronaut spent his last years before becoming too ill searching for Noah's ark on mount Ararat and he was no fool but a man more intelligent than nearly all of the sceptics whom usually attack conspiracy theory's on this site.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Yeah, I already saw that video. It is a good video and does open the mind a little. I like that.

I actually got some of my information on what a son of god is from the bible when I read it. It talks about some people being able to link with god and god answering. Being that there was songs and repeated phrases involved, I think that it is sort of a meditative state that these men of god were trying to get to to link up between their subconscious and the supreme being. This link, the Muslims refer to as sunnah or some other religions refer to as sanna seems to be a clue. They sound similar. The Jewish have a similar word called Shekhinah which is different but still incorporates the letter Sin. Now this refers to the link or the path, not actually to the name of god.

I don't know what the word for this would be in Christianity. Christianity seems to have created some of their own words and be different than the earlier religions. It takes time to study these things, because I couldn't comprehend the relationship of religions to one another because of what I was taught in church. Seems that Christianity focuses on the differences and not the similarities of the religions. Many religions were basically the same before, that is why Christianity was able to convert people. Different names but same basic head god.

a reply to: rickymouse

Well early christianity was essentially a branch of judaism and was after all founded by a jewish sect which spread outward, it was more adaptive in part because it openly espoused the conversion of gentiles (which judaism also did but on its own terms) and had a simpler message in the form of the gospel to the more complicated method of memorizing the scroll of the torah (the first five book's of the old testament).
Reincarnation was also not necessary to christianity as to be reborn in the spirit is a fundemental teaching of christianity and to so transform the soul from one of death to one of life.
Some intriguing passages which have more mundane explanation traditionaly but spiritualist christians interpret differently such as "He that believes in me though he was dead he will still live" and for a spiritualist that can mean that even the souls whom have left the body can still be converted to live again by being reborn in the faith in christ but to the normal view it means that a man whom is totally evil can if he repents still come back to god and the gift of life given by his son whom took the sinners place on the cross and was safrificed as a living intermediary between man and god half way between heaven and earth upon the cross and whom defeated death by rising from death.
Remember that though the mystery of his nature is not easy for any of us to understand that christ was more spirit manifest as flesh then flesh though he was living flesh while he lived as one of us, he was manifest from pure spirit of god and so was both half mortal or flesh and half soul just like the symbolism of the cross half way between heaven and earth and this is one reason why only through him can we come to god, he is the aspect of god related to man made manifest and is our god, our only rightful king and alive for ever as after all life is a creation and he is a manifestation of it's creator.
Unlike the other religions though in christianity there is a feast in heaven he pointed out that between a man and a woman there is no difference and in the resurrection they shall be as angels, (Man was made to work and so where the angels but they shall never tire or thirst or hunger and shall be both children, servants and whitness of the wonders of god's ongoing creation) indeed the idea of an eternal paradise is not mentioned in christianity, there is new jerusalem, a new heaven and a new earth, his kingdom shall have no end but the old (Present) heaven (paradise) and earth shall pass away and only god's word's are eternal, also if a soul chooses to rest it may do so.
What happened to christianity is politic's, it was used as a tool of state and to control the masses which is one reason it was declared a state religion when it's spread could not be stopped and the imperial authoritys sought instead to control it or to ride the storm they could not stop.
So in respect of it reincarnation is not really necessary as christianity is about being reborn into eternal life or transcending death and reincarnation is about being stuck upon a wheel of repeating death and life in a cyclic fashion.
As for christian mysticism, there are many tales of extasy's as they are named among the saint's of the various churches and while monks on other religions are said to levitate in christianity healing and stigmata are part of these occurances, some places seem to have been blessed such as lord's in france where there is a room full of the crutches of people whom could not walk yet walked away, one man had no hip and was dying of a bone wasting disease, he walked away a whole man but this is not seen as the purpose of christianity and miracles only happen for some other reason than to heal the flesh as the soul is it's primary concern, yet christ did heal the lepar, the blind, the deaf and the dead.
Among all the other religious figures he is unique as he raised the dead and gave sight to the blind, made clean the unclean and forgave the sins of the damned elevating them to salvation and releasing them from the cyclic death, he never killed an even healed his enemy's like the temple guard come to take him from the garden whose ear was cut off by one of his apostles, without him we are dead anyway so why kill what is already dead but with him we are alive so coming out of the darkness into his light is our calling though many of us are lost in the darkness,.
Lastly it is the peronal relationship you grow inside yourself with your faith which unites you to it though we are all guilty of projecting our own expectations on our god when in fact it is his expectations that matter, he will lead us but we have to learn to walk on our own so as to stand and a cushy eternity is not the reality though there may be a great very long holiday for some of us, living forever has it's duties and purposes.

originally posted by: rickymouse
a reply to: LABTECH767

Meta physics is not just God ! like when you step in to a new country or city, you may get lost. You need a map. You need guidance. Some experiences can be satanic. Just pious and special servants of God can recognize the truth and wicked. Those who have purified themselves exceedingly.

All religions monotheistic religions are inviting humanity to get familiar with God and worship him and do good things.

A very similarity of monotheistic religions is that they are all awaiting the Messiahs. Jews are waiting for Meshiah son of David (Jesus). They believe Jesus is not born yet. Christians are waiting for Jesus but they believe He is alive and will return. Muslims also are waiting for Jesus, they believe He is alive and will return But He was never died. Also Muslims are waiting for Mahdi too. They believe Mahdi will be accompanied with Jesus. They believe Mahdi is from descendants of Muhammad. Some of them believe He is not born yet and some other say He was born thousand year ago but He is alive hidden from eyes and he will return. Those who believe Mahdi is alive they call him the twelfth Imam. They claim father of Mahdi is from descendants of Muhammad and his mother is from saint Peter.
Also all of them believe that anti Christ will come. Muslims call him Dajjal. All of them believe that anti Christ is from Israel tribe and He will claim to be God.
They say Mahdi will emerge in Mecca and will join Jesus in Jerusalem.

a reply to: maes2

Yes there are many paths but only one lead's to god and christ said only through me may you come to god so he is the only way but the devil both real and metaphysical has conspired to lead man astray and to deny him his inheritance.
Only enoch, Elijah, John the baptist (Whom many mistook for the messiah and he corrected until he acknowledged christ as the one he was waiting for, as he was the last true pre christian prophet) walked in the way of god, non of these men murdered or commited wrong in the sight of god and any prophet whom has broken any of god's commandments had not been taken up, john died but christ said he was the greatest man that has ever lived.
Christ said I do not come to remove the law, heaven and earth shall pass away yet not one word of the law shall pass away.
The other religion follows a man whom sacked caravans, told his men to rape woman (including married woman which is both rape and adultery) and actually killed by his own hand with a spear, gave a child to his uncle as a plaything (the daughter of Um Kirfa whom was a respected peacemaker and had over 50 swords given as gifts in her tent as sign of respect and allegiance from other chiefs) and let's not point out the rest as I am not leading this thread into a war but whatever many believe no matter how true that they can move the mountain they will not move God, BUT jesus said I will forgive they whom are ignorant as they never knew the truth so many whom follow that shall be saved and the burden on christians is that they were told though often they did not understand (As only the holy spirit can grant true understanding and open there eye's) but among those whom did and still did wrong then they must face his judgement, also christ said let the little ones come unto me for such is the kingdom of heaven (for they are innocent) and among many christian faiths baptism is seen as the only way into heaven, it is true that baptism is necessary for adult's as a modern covenant but regardless the children still have the right to come to christ and that crowd of children whom he berated his own apostle for stopping had most likely never been baptized, john the baptist baptized with water but christ baptizes with the holy spirit.
Also live by the spear when christ said he whom lives by the sword shall die by the sword, upon the cross a roman stabbed his side with his spear to make certain he was dead before they took him down from the cross.
You and others may or may not believe this but please watch it and open your heart this man has passed away but swore to his dying breath it was true and I do believe him.
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.ronwyatt.com...
There are people whom do not want it to be right and constantly try to deny his words, they constantly deny his honesty yet non can prove there own accusations.

a reply to: maes2

Interesting stuff you posted, I have been looking up Mahdi.

It's nice to know that I do not have to worry about being any of these reincarnated messiahs. From my DNA testing I am 100 percent European. Neither the or is possible in my future. I feel so relieved that I don't have to worry about being assigned these jobs.

a reply to: jester420

Text1: When, according to your belief, was the world created? Proof/evidence needed, as in particular bible verses. 2: How was the world created? I know that according to the bible,God created the earth, but how? - See more at: www.abovetopsecret.com...

1 - KJV bible in Genesis 1:1 says ---
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. As far as evidence there is none to satisfy most people. You cannot demand evidence in theology and the bible is full of theology. If you have evidence then it would not be theology. It would then become fact would it not? The same question could be asked as to where did God get the material that He made the heavens and worlds from? Don't really know and will never find out; That is reserved for His own self.

2 - This creation was created by the Word of God. The Word of God is the visibility of God.

John 1:1-3 (1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (2) The same was in the beginning with God. (3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Just as you have two portions that is your entity, God also has two portions to His existence. Moses called these two portions "image' and "Likeness," With God His image is "The Celestial Word" and His likeness is Himself as total Spirit. We are created in His image and His likeness. Our image being this terrestrial soul (body) and the likeness being a celestial portion of His spirit which is life.

How? no one knows that answer, not even Solomon who was the wisest man to have ever lived or will live.

a reply to: Seede

Just as you have two portions that is your entity, God also has two portions to His existence. Moses called these two portions "image' and "Likeness," With God His image is "The Celestial Word" and His likeness is Himself as total Spirit.

This is a really big leap of logic here.
"Image' and "Likeness", just means that there is a model, and the making of something to match it.
It isn't properly two different things, it is just two steps in the describing of what happened.

originally posted by: jester420
I was having a great conversation with my farther last night. He is a pentecostal christian, and my self had been to church for about 6 years in my youth, as well as going to a private christian college,
I ask some questions and he found them really hard to answer, using the bible proved no help.
1: When, according to your belief, was the world created? Proof/evidence needed, as in particular bible verses.
2: How was the world created? I know that according to the bible,God created the earth, but how?

Please let me know what you think.

Rabbi's read Genesis 1:1, and in the Hebrew it says that God spoke the heavens and the earth into existence. The first thing God creates is light. So if the Christian God is the Creator then the primordial source for all is sound, and the basis of all matter is light. Well, if we look into the quantum realm this is exactly what you find. Quanta or bits of energy(light) carry a resonant frequency(sound) just like other piece of matter in the world. So I would say God spoke the world into existence according to the Bible, and what we find in Science is completely coherent with the Biblical world view.

As for when, well only YHWH knows.

I think the idea in Genesis is that the world was made by God, rather than by someone else.
The thing that comes across is "His will".
"He spoke" just coveys the idea, that it was His will enough to go to the trouble of making a command.
I think it is written to counter the idea that Satan or some evil god or half god did it in secret as some sort of trick, either against God or people in general.
It really has nothing to do with the actual mechanism of creation.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
I think the idea in Genesis is that the world was made by God, rather than by someone else.
The thing that comes across is "His will".
"He spoke" just coveys the idea, that it was His will enough to go to the trouble of making a command.
I think it is written to counter the idea that Satan or some evil god or half god did it in secret as some sort of trick, either against God or people in general.
It really has nothing to do with the actual mechanism of creation.

Believe as you wish.