Capitalism doesn't and IS NOT working, it's destructive and creatives poor social incentives

a reply to: buster2010

You can have the same thing in socialist countries. There are many different types of socialism and when most people complain about socialism they really don't know what they are talking about.

Perhaps you could do us the honor of explaining what Socialism is by your specific interpretation of it? I count at least 2 distinctly separate apparent interpretations of it here...maybe 3.

We could all do with a clear and concise definition of terms..if you're able for us?

originally posted by: onequestion
Yes I am saying it,

CAPITALISM DOESN'T and IS NOT WORKIG

Ok I know what your response is going to be, it's not capitalism it's an oligarchy, it's crony capitalism, it's everything else. But guess what, capitalism is what brought us into the oligarchy it's what got us into this mess.

It creates social incentives for greed and wealth and does not benefit humanity as a whole it benefits the top percentage of greedy wealthy sociopaths at the top who understand it best.

We need to come up with a system that doesn't require people to starve, doesn't pollute the earth and destroy the rainforest, that doesn't enslave Africa and South America.

So people any suggestions ?

It benefits me and I'm not in the top 1%. I actually know a lot of people it benefits, none of which are in the top 1%. So maybe it isn't working for you, but there are a lot of people it does work for.
In actuality, with the amount of people I'm the USA, I would say it is working a lot better than the other options out there. Oh year, those greedy people that don't care, sure donate a lot of money their earned to different causes.

a reply to: Wiseupall

This makes me think of the forest.
Who owns the forest? (we all do?)
Then why does Rich Pigg clear cut it, make a huge profit off of it, and keep the money offshore so it can't be taxed. Sure, Rich provided good jobs, but only because he had to, what,... did you think he was going to get off his butt to do it himself?
It's resource theft, but Rich Pigg says he provides wealth in the form of jobs.

Same with those who steal all the remaining green spaces to throw up malls and to raise cash cows which they milk hard, what do I get? Sadness, they are destroying my societal escapes, but, I have more shopping choices and more wallets to fill.

There is also other kinds of land theft, one can buy all the land around a lake and keep it for oneself.

Don't forget oil rich Nigeria, lots of money to be made, never mind those starving people.

Resource theft, it is what it is. Exploiting what belongs to us all for personal benefit.

I am getting into the air business, I am going to harvest air until it's almost gone, then I am going to 'value added' it by putting mint, citrus, lavender scent infusions into it. Then I am going to sell it to people that have a desire to breathe more easily.
If I can buy a forest or hundreds of acres of land, can I not buy the air too?
And why not? Is there someone who won't sell it to me?

I beleive in the philosophy of no man should own more land than he himself can work, if he needs help, the land gets divided. No reason why any human should be able to 'own' obscene amounts of land to do with as they please.

Who sold it to them?

If Capitalism is not working, the truly dumb and most self-destructive thing we can do is adopt the "opposite" Socialistm and Communism. Neither works,stop promoting any of them,please.

Socialism appears to work, but actually, socialism has never made an economy, it always takes over an economy. An economy made by capitalistic economic forces.

Capitalism ended feudalism by allowing the best product and lowest price to compete with the official product and official price.

Capitalism made all of the goods we used today by way of the Industrial Revolution.

Socialism butts in and tries to take the credit for everything that capitalism has done.

There is an old term which is seldom used in these times.

"The Commons" which are the things and places everyone needs to live their lives like water and air and space to live in.

The Commons are now up for sale.

What's the next market going to be?.

They hang the man and flog the woman for stealing the goose off the common, but the greater villain is left loose to steal the common from under the goose...Not precisely the commons mentioned earlier, but maybe the point gets across....

a reply to: Toadmund

a reply to: tide88
I am absolutely amazed any of these systems work at all. We should all be starving at the rate chaos destroys order. It is magical that we exist at all.

Capitalism CAN work. Don't just let a few problems dismiss the concept altogether. With nuclear power and solar power coming up, you can make it work.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

I think credit based currency is part of the answer. It will facilitate the transition to an economic system that no longer uses currency, but, to something valuable, like real money. Say your time. Speaking of time as money, that probably was the primary cause behind World War 2. Germany abolished currency for real money known as Labor Treasury Certificates. That was a huge threat to entrenched banking interests.

That is a little bit of forbidden history for you to research. Disseminated history from the 1930s is a very light and opaque in regards to that, for various propaganda filled reasons. Thankfully the 1933 headlines makes it obvious. A 911 like investigation, pokes innumerable holes, into the "official" story.

Capitalism is fine, in as much as basic needs and liberties are protected. But ifwhen the economic system gets in the way of that, then the solution is to replace the economic system. In our case, our currency and system needs serious re-evaluation. Not just a quick break-fix either, but, completely redesigned with a peaceful abundant future in mind.

Automation also needs consideration, especially developing technology that so go around collecting the invisible mess we have made for ourselves. Think nano bots designed to seek out, collect, and remove manmade nuclear particles and toxins from our environment. If there is any truth to the issues at Fukushima and the Pacific, that kind of solution is now required.

a reply to: metodex

Socialism is not the opposite of capitalism, in fact, it's complementary. Capitalists without a socialist's heart will eventually drive the world into doom. Socialists without a capitalist's mind will lead to no innovations. You need a mixture of both for the world to be truly happy.

Nuclear power never comes out in the black or reduces costs to the consumer.

Solar has the potential to allow one to get completely off of the grid which won't be allowed to happen, and charging battery banks produces hydrogen which explodes.

Neither will be affordable to the masses in the near enough future.

Besides, there are a lot of other problems to be addressed besides powering all of those useless entertainment devices anyway.

I know, fridges and AC are nice, heat necessary in cold climates, but people will have to become a lot more frugal before more options will be made available to them.

Really though, if we just got straight up frugal and kept it that way, that just might be enough considering we squander so much of our luxuries and resources anyway.

Probably not going to happen....
a reply to: np6888

originally posted by: OrphanApology
a reply to: onequestion

We're not in a system of capitalism. We never have been. EVER.

Traditional capitalism is a system of private ownership where owners try and use free market to make profit(in other words, no government control/ownership).

The current system we are in is in no way capitalism. Corporatism definitely.

But lets just call corporations what they really are...which are appendages of the government that exist only because of laws that disrupt private ownership and the forces of the free market.

There is no "private" ownership anywhere in the world. There is no "free-market"...save maybe Bitcoin as being a close contender.

Edit 9:07 cst:

Also capitalism does promote proper behavior because it promotes mutual best interest. The trade of self-interests is the only type of business that works in the long run. When government starts being used as a tool to violently steal from one group and give to another, all morality is out the window. Those systems are also not based on private ownership but rather government ownership(as is the case in the United States. No individual "owns" anything)

Again, there has never been a truly capitalistic system. It is the same as anarchy, which again has never existed.

That is all.

What you are failing to see is that who is controlling the government?
It sure as hell is not "we the people" or the majority of the populous!
As long as money creates power we will forever enslave the majority
through manipulation of political will!
As far as the possibility of ever having a true capitalistic society, this
is an utter impossibility at least in a republic! For self interest will always
outweigh the good of the whole and therefore the small business owners
will always come up against an oligarchy which will cause their demise through
unjust laws and lawsuits!
We have been heading down this road of an increasing larger proportion of
the people becoming destitute, with those larger corporations making their
own laws and destroying the environment to increase profits!
The only way out of this mess is to create a more fair and balanced society
where the incentives for success are not monetarily motivated but are still
based on some kind of reward that would not put power into the hands of
those that are successful!
The choices for major decisions need to be arrived at through a democratic
means and without self interests but with benefit to our entire species!
I realize there are so many people that have been brainwashed to believe
that anything other then the inequality we now have is some kind of
communist, socialist ideology that threatens their self interests but this
is just a misconception put into place by the minority of elitist intent on
maintaining the status quoi! Until we as a people begin to open our minds to
the possibility of change we will forever be held in this grasp of fear through
deluded ideals!

I am always amused at what extremists people are who supposedly are open minded and inquisitive.

It seems almost as if they don't think there are more than two or three choices or methods.

Who could possibly be responsible for making people believe their choices are so limited?.

?

a reply to: np6888

a reply to: Not Authorized

I will agree that our current system is all but shot at this point. At least economically? We're living in a funhouse of smoke and mirrors. When there is literally nothing on Earth that can stand for physical value to the 'currency' in circulation? We have an economy of pure illusion and perception of value...and that can't last. It may be another 6 weeks, 6 months or 6 years...but the system as we've known it cannot hold as a pure issue of mathematics. Exponential rate of growth to debt through compound interest means even if we weren't spending ANYTHING? We're still digging deeper and by BIG numbers, every hour of every day by the interest compounding alone.

So.. Yes, in real terms, I agree we DO need to adapt and move to something else...or a new variant of what has worked for our people and nation in times past. Whatever..but the warped version of whatever it is we have isn't anything but stop gaps to carry failure another day at this point.

The problem is....as many will quickly note? China is, in some ways, in far worse shape than WE are with a debt bubble not as apparent, but as real. The difference of course IS where Communism shines for the communist. If people here bitch TOO much about debt? Obama could lose his job and future ones will fight like hell to hold what they have. If China? If people get too pissed? Well, we'd need a Ouija Board..but we could ask the guy with the tank at Tiananmen Square.

"Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wicked of men will do the most wicked of things for the greatest good of everyone."

John Maynard Keynes.

NYUCK NYUCK

a reply to: onequestion
In ancient Israel, charging interest was only allowed for the Goyim/foreigners.
It seems to be recognized as a form of economic warfare.

Debts were supposed to be forgiven during the 7th year. This would likely prevent
the boom bust cycle that plagues our world. Compound interest insures that money
is concentrated in the accounts of the capitalists.

There are only two ways to get money. You either work for it or you steal it.
You must work to deserve it, especially if you "marry money" inherit it, or receive by accident.

originally posted by: onequestion

So people any suggestions ?

South Americ and Africa were wrecked by socialism, not capitalism. Capitalism is the sole reason Europe and America are in fairly good shape. Ever since Russia and China have replaced Socialism with Capitalism their life expectancy and health has gone up, the standard of living for all has gone up and everything starts looking brighter and newer. Countries on the other hand, that adopt socialism, such as Zimabwe, South Africa, Cuba, North Korea and now even France and Greece, start going broke...unless they are oil-rich countries with few inhabitants, such as Norway (but even Scandinavians have grown tired of it and have now all voted capitalist governments into office). People with your message are part of the problem.

a reply to: MyHappyDogShiner

Propaganda. Energy is everywhere. You are stuck in the war oil gas nuclear paradigm. What if we crack the secrets of photosynthesis, and combined it with super efficient batteries for storage? Would you really need any of those fossil fuels? Will power requirements also continue to become miniaturized with further technological advances? Besides, have you never asked why does power consumption drop and become more efficient with certain technologies, but not others, like for example automobiles?

PS, the problem with nuclear was not the concept itself. It was the fact that most reactors were designed to facilitate making nuclear bomb materials. Because of the unstable nature of the materials being produced, it makes the design unsafe.

Their are designs that are very safe for producing nuclear energy, but they don't allow making the materials needed for a nuke.

Problems with meltdowns, and the horrors attributed to them, can be directly attributed to the oligarch war machine.

originally posted by: MyHappyDogShiner
"Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wicked of men will do the most wicked of things for the greatest good of everyone."

John Maynard Keynes.

NYUCK NYUCK

nice! : )

originally posted by: Skyfloating

>>
South Americ and Africa were wrecked by socialism, not capitalism. Capitalism is the sole reason Europe and America are in fairly good shape.
>>

Can you please define what you mean with "fairly good shape"? Things go to #s in the US and large parts of Europe, gap between the poor and the few ultra-rich is becoming larger, not smaller. Not to mention health care (or the lack there of) outsourcing and other issues. I am seriously wondering whether you live in Disneyworld?

>>
Ever since Russia and China have replaced Socialism with Capitalism their life expectancy and health has gone up, the standard of living for all has gone up and everything starts looking brighter and newer.
>>

Yep, now China and Russia ALSO has ultra-rich billionaires, for instance, like those Russian dudes who own 300M yachts that costs 20M a year just to operate. Things look so bright, I am sure they need sunglasses to not be blinded!

>>
Oil-rich countries with few inhabitants, such as Norway (but even Scandinavians have grown tired of it and have now all voted capitalist governments into office).
>>
Me thinks that the "capitalists" in Oslo or some other European locations would be considered ultra-left-liberals in the US. You know that this comparison doesn't work, at all. The idea to compare the system in the US with Norway....seriously....you are smarter than that...

>>
People with your message are part of the problem.
>>
Nothing is wrong with his message. Capitalism can't sustain, not like how it is applied in the US or elsewhere. That it cannot sustain we have proof everywhere when you just open your eyes.