Fasting for three days can regenerate entire immune system, study finds

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

but the overall effect while making a water fast of 3 days or so, and not the extreme starvation other people do, is a strengthened immune system.

What makes you say that? It seems to me that WBCs turn over every 3-4 days anyway.

All leukocytes are produced and derived from a multipotent cell in the bone marrow known as a hematopoietic stem cell. They live for about three to four days in the average human body.

en.wikipedia.org...

So if that's the case, what's the point of tying fasting to "new WBCS"?

Last time I entered a state of ketosis, the nausea hit me like a ton of bricks. I broke through fast before it passed. Had I not broken the fast, how long would it have taken to get over it?

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse
We can agree that we both know that during a water fast the immune system is weakened, which is why people with a compromised immune system shouldn't do a water fast.

I think you're misinterpreting the article. It mentions Chemo numerous times, as something that would compromise the immune system, and that they think someone with a compromised immune system damaged by chemo might benefit from killing lots of white blood cells to make new ones.

However, even if the person who does a 3 day water fast was not going through therapy the overall result of a 3 day water fast is a stronger immune system and getting rid of most, if not all toxins from your body.

They do say that if your immune system is compromised already, killing the compromised cells and replacing them with new ones could make the immune system healthier and that makes sense. However the article doesn't support that statement about someone not going through chemo.

Replacing damaged cells with undamaged cells is an improvement.
Replacing undamaged cells with undamaged cells is not an improvement.

originally posted by: DenyObfuscation
What makes you say that? It seems to me that WBCs turn over every 3-4 days anyway.

Yes for the cells that die within three days anyway, I don't see much benefit even if the cells are damaged. Killing the cells that would have died within 4 days may provide some marginal benefit if you kill them within 3 days instead, but it doesn't seem like much, you're right.

Let's see what the completed research shows in 2015, which may conclude that the benefits if any are marginal for that reason, even with chemo patients.

a reply to: BlueMule

Most of the nausea passes the first day, and if you eat zero carbohydrates you don't have to stop eating. Going into ketosis will cause your body to excrete several pounds of fluid initially which probably accounts for much of the purge effect.

Those mystic schools in Egypt that required 40 days of fasting have something else going on.

Why would you need to almost die of starvation like the Buddha and Pythagoras before you received enlightenment?
Pragmatically speaking it must have something to do with the brain adapting to a lack of glycogen.

a reply to: Cauliflower

Thanks, good to know. What sort of zero-carb foods can I eat during ketosis?

a reply to: BlueMule

www.quick-weightloss-tips.com...

Just a note in case it hasn't been said, check with your doctor first before doing anything like this. Being diabetic I KNOW this would be bad for me. There are other contributing factors as well. So check with your doc.

a reply to: Cauliflower

Thanks. So just to clarify, zero-carb foods won't bring me out of ketosis? I could continue to purge?

a reply to: intrepid
Yes, fasting is a terrible idea for diabetics. I'm not sure how great it is for anybody.

A lot of people seem to be misinterpreting the research which isn't even complete yet.

I agree with the benefits of caloric restriction, but it's possible to restrict calories or impose certain types of diets without fasting.

a reply to: BlueMule

The fluid loss phase while in ketosis only lasts a few days. Your body will adapt to processing ketones instead of sugar/glycogen for about a week. After you adapt and feel comfortable in ketosis its up to you, evolve that into a water fast if you aren't particularly active and/or have some body fat to burn.

Body fat burns much slower than glycogen so you just need to exercise at a lower metabolic burn rate.

I did a one day full fast on friday and it was fantastic. Next morning headache and dizzy spells, so had to break the fast. Mind you my senses were greatly amplified second day,everything tasted more intense and the endorphin boost from the dark chocolate I ate gave a triple effect on my good mood. So cleansing is good for short periods, not sure if I'm willing to go for longer than a day or two soon.

originally posted by: DenyObfuscation


What makes you say that? It seems to me that WBCs turn over every 3-4 days anyway.

All leukocytes are produced and derived from a multipotent cell in the bone marrow known as a hematopoietic stem cell. They live for about three to four days in the average human body.

en.wikipedia.org...

So if that's the case, what's the point of tying fasting to "new WBCS"?

Because research shows it. There have been other research done in the past few years which show a healthy dose of water fast, not excessive, helps the body.

There are some cases in which water fasting should not be done, such as for children, pregnant women and in some cases of health problems.

originally posted by: Barcs
ElectricUniverse, You might want to scroll up a little bit and check out my post right above yours. I think we posted near the same time and you missed it. I cleared up a few things. Even when you are fasting on strictly water, the body still gets nutrients from the fat it digests and it is more than enough to sustain you during that time. Taking extra nutrients shouldn't be necessary, but if you take them, they should be liquid. The key is liquid, because it gives your digestive system a rest. Digestion uses a lot of energy and it is constantly working when a normal diet is eaten. It is extremely beneficial to give it a rest. 2 weeks is nothing compared to the 20-40 years of nonstop digestion. Juice fasting is its own thing, separate from taking nutrients because you take in tons of carbs and ketosis does not start as a result. It's good if you are strictly cleansing, but you don't get nearly all the same benefits as you do from water fasting.
...

Humm, weird, I made a long response to this post of yours and once I pressed send it didn't post it and lost all the info I had written.

To summarize my response taking fasting to the extreme becomes detrimental to your health. This can cause health problems such as vitamin deficiency which can lead to health problems such as anemia, beriberi, pellagra, and scurvy. In case you don't know what these health problems are here is a link with some info on these health problems caused by starvation.

Anyway, you also tried to state that because animals can do certain things that humans should be able to, but this is not true. The human digestive system is not like that of animals. There are things animals can eat that would kill any human, including you and me. Not to mention that humans don't have the capacity to hibernate like bears can.

The stored fat people have is finite, when that storage of fat ends the body turns to eat itself, this causes a reduction in the mass of organs including the liver, intestines, the heart and kidneys, which often times can cause permanent damage in the organs.

...
Starvation: Starvation can have very serious effects on all major body systems and organs. The basic metabolic response to starvation is to conserve body tissues and energy. However, the body will also start to use its own tissue, including muscle and organs, for energy since the body has no food to use instead, The liver and intestines
typically lose the highest percentage of their own weight during starvation, followed by the heart and kidneys which both lose a moderate amount of weight. This often causes permanent damage to the organs in the process. Because someone's heart size may be reduced, they will experience low blood pressure and a slowed pulse. It cans also lead to cardiac arrest or kidney failure. Total starvation is usually fatal in 8 to 12 weeks.
...

www.eatingproblems.org...

Also, you mentioned that because the human body can live off without food during fasting that it should be okay to do extreme fasting, but this is not true either. A similar argument could be made about overweight. Since the human body can store a huge amount of fat, then it should be okay and natural to become overweight and not have health problems? Of course not. Taking fasting to the extreme, just as over-eating, a lack of exercise, or over-exercising can often times cause health problems. In some cases more than others such as being overweight or extreme water fasting.

There is also the fact that fasting for such prolonged times will cause you to not sleep 8 hours, being restless, tired, weakened, etc which also takes a toll on the body and can even lead to accidents. Such prolonged and extreme fasting which leads to sleep deprivation can lead to other long term health problems.

...
3. Sleep Deprivation Can Lead to Serious Health Problems

Sleep disorders and chronic sleep loss can put you at risk for:
Heart disease
Heart attack
Heart failure
Irregular heartbeat
High blood pressure
Stroke
Diabetes

According to some estimates, 90% of people with insomnia -- a sleep disorder characterized by trouble falling and staying asleep -- also have another health condition.
...

www.webmd.com...

I knew when to stop the water fasts I have done in the past and usually I would not do them every year. It is a lot better for people in general to eat healthy, exercise regularly, sleep for 8 hours, and if you want to detoxify check with your doctor and if he/she says it's ok to do a water fast not to take it to the extreme, or do a juice/shake/protein fast which will also help you. Not to mention that a juice/shake/protein fast can be done for a longer period of time without leading to health problems caused by extreme starvation.

BTW, taking nutrients and vitamins intravenously all you are doing is bypass your stomach and intestines which will not cause some of the health problems associated with true water fasting, but could cause deterioration of your stomach and intestine lining with frequent fasts.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Because research shows it. There have been other research done in the past few years which show a healthy dose of water fast, not excessive, helps the body.

Not to be rude but I did not ask if a water fast helps the body. My question was specific to this claim

but the overall effect while making a water fast of 3 days or so, and not the extreme starvation other people do, is a strengthened immune system.

What is the great benefit of inducing leukopenia in a healthy person? The white cells you're killing off only live 3-4 days anyway. They are always being replaced anyway at a healthy rate. Why force this part of your body's immune defense into oblivion by fasting?

If you have a reasonable answer I'd like to hear it. So far this aspect seems utterly illogical.

a reply to: DenyObfuscation
You often ask a lot of good questions, and that's a really good one.

I can't say I see the logic either, and nothing I remember reading in the article explains that.

On the 4th day when you start eating again, that's when your immune system is the weakest, and white blood cells are needed for protection against the food you eat, so you're somewhat vulnerable with a low white cell count when you start eating, "attacking" your body with food and not much to defend it.

The research cited in the OP definitely doesn't support fasting by a healthy person and now your question has me rethinking if there's even any benefit for someone on chemo, I'm starting to think that claim may not be logical either, because by day 4 your defective chemo ravaged cells would have been dead anyway even without the fast.

Keep asking good questions.

originally posted by: DenyObfuscation
What is the great benefit of inducing leukopenia in a healthy person? The white cells you're killing off only live 3-4 days anyway. They are always being replaced anyway at a healthy rate. Why force this part of your body's immune defense into oblivion by fasting?

If you have a reasonable answer I'd like to hear it. So far this aspect seems utterly illogical.

This question has been answered throughout the thread. Even the op gave a nice graph showing how a 3 day fast can help regenerate healthy cells damaged by aging, not only damaged cells from chemotherapy. I am sure that even though there are a lot of people who are healthy, we all are aging.

The following is a graph given in the OP by member Indigent.



The above graph can be found in the research link below also given by ATS member Indigent on the first page.

www.cell.com...

But, as it has been specified always consult with your doctor, and if it is ok people shouldn't do extreme starvation which is detrimental to your health.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur
I can't say I see the logic either, and nothing I remember reading in the article explains that.

On the 4th day when you start eating again, that's when your immune system is the weakest, and white blood cells are needed for protection against the food you eat, so you're somewhat vulnerable with a low white cell count when you start eating, "attacking" your body with food and not much to defend it.
...

Which is why after a water fast you have to start by eating soup, crème, and steadily go back to a full healthy meal.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur
The research cited in the OP definitely doesn't support fasting by a healthy person and now your question has me rethinking if there's even any benefit for someone on chemo, I'm starting to think that claim may not be logical either, because by day 4 your defective chemo ravaged cells would have been dead anyway even without the fast.

...

That's not true. Fasting moderately forms lineage enhanced stress resistant cells. While feeding normally forms myeloid lineage bias in stem cells and/or low WBC (White Blood Cells)count as shown on the graph given by Indigent on the first page.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur
Keep asking good questions.

Yeah, asking questions is always good.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

This question has been answered throughout the thread.

The problem is it hasn't been answered actually.

Even the op gave a nice graph showing how a 3 day fast can help regenerate healthy cells damaged by aging, not only damaged cells from chemotherapy. I am sure that even though there are a lot of people who are healthy, we all are aging.

Like I said WBCs only live 3-4 days. They're always being replaced without shooting your white count to hell while metabolizing(?)/catabolizing(?) muscle (yes, muscle too) and fat dumping toxins into your system. Sounds like an unhealthy way to get to a healthy ending that you would normally get to anyway. What part of what I'm saying do you not get?

ETA: From your post directly above this one

That's not true. Fasting moderately forms lineage enhanced stress resistant cells.

Enhanced? How so? I don't see that in the graphic.

While feeding normally forms myeloid lineage bias in stem cells and/or low WBC (White Blood Cells)count as shown on the graph given by Indigent on the first page.

In the case of (undefined) aging or chemo. BTW, this is not a passing curiosity. I kind of have a "need to know" on this subject right now.

I also see the IGF-1 arrow pointing up. It doesn't have to be that way while feeding. Severe carb restriction will prevent IGF-1 increase while still feeding on protein and fat. Interesting tidbit.

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse
To summarize my response taking fasting to the extreme becomes detrimental to your health. This can cause health problems such as vitamin deficiency which can lead to health problems such as anemia, beriberi, pellagra, and scurvy. In case you don't know what these health problems are here is a link with some info on these health problems caused by starvation.

Fasting is not starvation, so any health problems associated with that do not apply. Starvation is when the body digests its own organs to survive. Of course there are health problems associated with starvation, but that is a red herring, because fasting doesn't do that. If you run out of fat and muscle, then YES, it begins digesting your organs. THAT is starvation. This is why I say most issues I see are user error. Clearly if you don't break the fast when extreme hunger pangs begin, you are doing it wrong.

Anyway, you also tried to state that because animals can do certain things that humans should be able to, but this is not true. The human digestive system is not like that of animals. There are things animals can eat that would kill any human, including you and me. Not to mention that humans don't have the capacity to hibernate like bears can.

I didn't say that because animals do it, we should do it. I said that animals ALSO utilize fasting to heal.

The stored fat people have is finite, when that storage of fat ends the body turns to eat itself, this causes a reduction in the mass of organs including the liver, intestines, the heart and kidneys, which often times can cause permanent damage in the organs.

Yes, and that is when starvation occurs. The idea is to not use up all of your fat. I thought I explained this already, but when you run out of fat, you get extremely painful hunger pangs. It would be impossible to not notice. When that happens, it is a sign that you must eat again, asap. When you first fast you are hungry, but after 3 days or so, the hunger goes away. When it returns again with the vengeance, it is time to stop, and this always happens before you completely run out of fat.

Also, you mentioned that because the human body can live off without food during fasting that it should be okay to do extreme fasting, but this is not true either. A similar argument could be made about overweight. Since the human body can store a huge amount of fat, then it should be okay and natural to become overweight and not have health problems? Of course not. Taking fasting to the extreme, just as over-eating, a lack of exercise, or over-exercising can often times cause health problems. In some cases more than others such as being overweight or extreme water fasting.

I'm not sure what you mean by fasting to the extreme. You seem to not have a clear idea of how water fasts are supposed to work. 2 weeks is certainly not extreme. It may not be the thing for everybody, but that doesn't negate all the positive benefits when done properly.

There is also the fact that fasting for such prolonged times will cause you to not sleep 8 hours, being restless, tired, weakened, etc which also takes a toll on the body and can even lead to accidents. Such prolonged and extreme fasting which leads to sleep deprivation can lead to other long term health problems.

It's not sleep deprivation, you don't do as much activity, you don't digest, so you don't need as much sleep. And again, it's only a temporary period. Most people deprive themselves of sleep constantly, without fasting. Getting a little less sleep for 2 weeks isn't the end of the world. You keep bringing up things that have nothing to do with fasting and equivocating them like starvation and insomnia.

I knew when to stop the water fasts I have done in the past and usually I would not do them every year. It is a lot better for people in general to eat healthy, exercise regularly, sleep for 8 hours, and if you want to detoxify check with your doctor and if he/she says it's ok to do a water fast not to take it to the extreme, or do a juice/shake/protein fast which will also help you. Not to mention that a juice/shake/protein fast can be done for a longer period of time without leading to health problems caused by extreme starvation.

Fasting isn't a diet. Fasting isn't a weight loss program. Fasting is a temporary process to heal or cleanse the body. It has nothing to do with eating healthy, exercising and getting enough sleep. Those are life choices that should be made regardless of whether or not you choose to do a water fast every now and then. Stop using buzz words like "extreme starvation". Fasting is not extreme starvation as I have clearly outlined. If you prefer juice fasting that's cool with me, but you seem have some major beef with water fasting for some reason, and a lot of it is is misunderstanding the terminology. Fasting DOES NOT EQUAL Starvation.

Let's ponder this thought for a second...

4 year olds body...how long would a child's body, need to go through a fasting period to equal 24 hour or 3 day fast compared to an adult...their body's are smaller, metabolism much higher, and more efficient....I would suspect the time would atleast be cut in half if not more. One night sleeping, 12 hour period for a child, equals 24 hour fasting for an adult...so a little child could go through this healing process much faster. Think a little baby, eating every 4 hours, how efficient is the body at this stage...a 24 hour fasting for an adult could equal 4 hour period for a newborn...

Now let's look at one more, keeping this in mind.

Fevers...what happens, body temp rises, heart rate increases, sweating, no appetite, therefore food intake is almost down to zero, dehydration sets in with fever, increase water intake...low temp, compared to a high temp....how fast would a cycle be during this time of stress on the body....higher temp equals faster cycles ...

Exaggerated examples,but could be true, especially in a baby or child's body...

24 hour period with 100 temp equals healthy adult 3 day water fasting,
12 hour period with 101 temp equals healthy adult 5 day water fasting,
6 hour period with 102 temp equals healthy adult 7 day water fasting

Never really understood for what reason of a fever....now I do...this increases the metabolism, which cycles the body faster...allows for healing much faster..