Scottish independence: Barack Obama backs 'strong and united' UK

originally posted by: mclarenmp4
a reply to: stumason

Make your mind up Stu, you go all negative saying we're doomed to the EU and losing sovereignty to them and then when I explain that it goes against the current feeling and explain why. All of a sudden is oh it'll be better to stay in the EU won't cost you as much etc..

You're missing the point - I was simply pointing out that if your choice is EU or EEA, you're better off in the EU as you can at least influence the legislation you have to adopt anyway. Being in the EEA is simply being told what to do by the EU with no input at all.

I wasn't advocating my position on the EU in any of my posts, just simply pointing out the facts on the ground.

As it stands, I am slightly pro-EU but only with some repatriation of powers or wholesale reform of the institutions. However, if we cannot get powers back from EU and regain control over our own country, without having unelected technocrats in Brussels/Strasbourg sending us diktats (like they do in the EEA as well) then I would elect for leaving the EU altogether.

And I actually believe a stronger Scotland would balance out the power of Westminster and we have such strong cultural and trade ties the only breaking up of the union will be that we take control of our decisions to a government that actually represents us.

I don't mean to piss on your parade, but an independent Scotland would no more be able to "balance out" anything that it doesn't already do. London alone is larger than Scotland in terms of GDP and Population and we already have problems with that. An independent Scotland would be able to do what, exactly, to do this "balancing" when England alone is some 10 times the size?

My point on the taxation was to point out the path that lay before you - in order to provide this Utopia you dream of, the money has to come from somewhere and there isn't a great deal of Oil left, while Salmond paints a picture of the new Dubai which awaits you on the 19th September.

They want us to believe that it will divide us and that we will build a new hadrian wall but that won't happen we are too close to our UK brethren.

It will divide us, like it already is. Already, a lot of mud is being slung at us English as the apparent cause of all of Scotland's problems and it's getting worse. And if you do vote, there will be an acrimonious divorce as Scotland tries to have it's cake and eat it while expecting the rUK to continue to back them up - plus of course if it all goes tits up, then it will be our fault as well.

Since when has a divorce ever ended with both parties being best of friends?

originally posted by: mclarenmp4
OK Freeborn and Stumason how about this one, Ireland. They were British once and are doing alright now.

I am glad you've brought them up - Ireland went completely arse over tit only a few years ago and it was the UK which had to come to the rescue at considerable cost to the UK taxpayer (£7Bn+)

They are not "doing alright" and you are deluding yourself if you think so. They did "ok" for a few years from the end of the 20th through to the start of the 21st century, but that was all based on credit. Now they suffer from the same old problem of emigrating youth, brain drain and a relatively unsophisticated or dynamic economy.

There are more Irish living in England alone than in Ireland - why is that?

No-one is slinging anything at the English...it's Westminster we hate with a passion. in fact i know a few English and welsh and Irish who have stated..Run, while you still got the chance.
As far as we want our cake and eat it...we just want some cake, not the crumbs from the past 40 years of oil revenue...our Oil.
My ex and i get on just fine.

a reply to: stumason

If I may add just one thing to that stu before I go as I am late for the pub.

And all that and they haven't got the convenient scapegoat anymore - always been 'blame the bastard English'....can't throw that one into the mix anymore.

Anyway, footie on tonight and my mate Stuey is going to defend his World title tonight.

originally posted by: stumason

You're missing the point - I was simply pointing out that if your choice is EU or EEA, you're better off in the EU as you can at least influence the legislation you have to adopt anyway. Being in the EEA is simply being told what to do by the EU with no input at all.

Well these are things we can look at and decide what is best, I would prefer continued EU membership to provide stability and decent representation in the EU parliament but also give the Scottish people a vote on the EU if allowed to continue within it. If we have to join from the beginning then I doubt we will join.

I wasn't advocating my position on the EU in any of my posts, just simply pointing out the facts on the ground.

As it stands, I am slightly pro-EU but only with some repatriation of powers or wholesale reform of the institutions. However, if we cannot get powers back from EU and regain control over our own country, without having unelected technocrats in Brussels/Strasbourg sending us diktats (like they do in the EEA as well) then I would elect for leaving the EU altogether.

If we went the EEA route then that would support an issue that is a big reason we are opposed to the EU, it would give us back our fishing industry which has decimated large parts just north of where I live. Where once it was a great hardworking community and is now like a ghost area.

I don't mean to piss on your parade, but an independent Scotland would no more be able to "balance out" anything that it doesn't already do. London alone is larger than Scotland in terms of GDP and Population and we already have problems with that. An independent Scotland would be able to do what, exactly, to do this "balancing" when England alone is some 10 times the size?

Because if Scottish growth happens and it could happen quite substantially then many Englishmen & women I'm sure would start working up in Scotland. We have vast areas of land that the Scottish Government is looking into reclaiming it legally at the moment, then growth in Scotland could be massive. That would balance it out.

My point on the taxation was to point out the path that lay before you - in order to provide this Utopia you dream of, the money has to come from somewhere and there isn't a great deal of Oil left, while Salmond paints a picture of the new Dubai which awaits you on the 19th September.

I did some fact checking and no we wouldn't be a Dubai but we would be the 6th in the OECD index.

Fact Check

In its paper ‘Monetary Valuation of UK Continental Shelf Oil & Gas Reserves’, the Office for National Statistics claims that since the 31st December 2011 the total value of untapped reserves in the UK’s North Sea fields is $120 billion.

Monetery Value of UK Continental Shelf Oil & Gas Reserves

90% of which is in Scottish waters so there's still plenty to go for a while.

It will divide us, like it already is. Already, a lot of mud is being slung at us English as the apparent cause of all of Scotland's problems and it's getting worse. And if you do vote, there will be an acrimonious divorce as Scotland tries to have it's cake and eat it while expecting the rUK to continue to back them up - plus of course if it all goes tits up, then it will be our fault as well.
Since when has a divorce ever ended with both parties being best of friends?

It's not the English people the mud slinging is at but the Government that rules us. It's not an Anti-English debate so please don't try to say it is.
Well I don't share your pessimism that is yours to deal with.

a reply to: stumason

It's a one sentence reply. Joining the Euro, it's that simple. We won't make the same mistake.

Vote Naw for More Austerity, a privatised Health system, more food banks, £50,000 worth of tuition fee debt, 1.7 trillion worth of debt and climbing by the day, £4.5 billion spend on HS2, £2.5 billions on new WMD's, more illegal wars and occupations, more Wastemonster and house of Lords corruption, more Oxford mafia Governments be it Labour, Tory or Lib dems, Fascist Ukip, no Oil fund..etc etc.. go on...I dare you.
Vote No and that's the future you have ahead of you.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
No-one is slinging anything at the English...it's Westminster we hate with a passion.

But what is so different about Holyrood from Westminster? You already have Holyrood in control of most things up north anyway, so what exactly is it about Westminster that is the font of all evil? It ain't perfect, that's for sure, but neither is the Scottish Exec

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
As far as we want our cake and eat it...we just want some cake, not the crumbs from the past 40 years of oil revenue...our Oil.

It's not all of "your oil" though - a good many fields lie in what would be considered "English" waters and England itself is on the verge of it's own oil/gas boom. What goes around comes around, no?

Anyhoo, over the years, the block grant sent North from the Treasury has always at least matched revenue from the Oil, in many cases it actually exceeds it.

Revenue last year was £5Bn (from all fields - not just "Scottish" while the grant going north was over twice that.

In the early 90's, revenue from the Oil was as low as £1Bn per annum while Scotland still received 10% of UK Treasury funding! But these facts don't make it through to you guys, Salmond makes out like we're milking you of tens of billions when that is simply not the case.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
My ex and i get on just fine.

She'd pay your credit card if you couldn't pay? She'd sign as a guarantor on your mortgage, would she? She'd allow you to stay in her house whenever you liked? Nice lass!

Obama (and the US) is controlled by the British, so of course he is going to back them. Obviously Americans should stay out of Scottish politics, just like we should stay out of Ukrainian politics, but as long as we're the police force of the new world order, don't count on it.

Englands oil and gas boom?...Fracking?...talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel..
and yes most of the oil is in our waters we havn't even began seriously drilling off the west coast yet...come the 19th we will see who has a right to what.
Yeah, we are such a burden on the UK...that's why they are fighting dirty to keep us.

a reply to: mclarenmp4

90% in Scottish Waters?

Hmmmm....

If talking strictly "oil", then the lions share is up North, but the treasury doesn't break it down like that. A good many Gas fields are actually of the Anglian Coast

See Map

Another map, in case you don't like the first one

90% is a bit of a stretch and just sounds like one of those numbers people grab from thin air to prove a point.....

As you can see from the map, a good deal of North Sea production is done within "English" waters - Salmond also likes to pretend he can draw a border out in a straight line going East, but in reality the border will not be anything like that.

a reply to: stumason

Actually politics in Scotland is a lot different and we can see the positive effects it had on our country that's why we want more.
And stop deluding yourself about your parties, they are all the same. They look alike, sound alike, talk balls alike.
It's a failed system, it now only works to serve the wealthy and the elite.

And it's good to see you resorting back to your old arguments about how your going to have to bail us out again etc.. That's usually when the debate ends, when you have to resort to the superiority complex.

a reply to: stumason

Is that all you've got left. Ah well good seeing you again Stu, take care.

a reply to: mclarenmp4

Who said anything about bailing you out?

The points I made about the ex paying the credit card hinges on the Scottish demand to use the Currency, back by the UK Treasury and BoE - using another nations currency carries risk, not just for the nation using it, but the nation issuing it as well.

I was using the ex and mortgage guarantee analogy as it is precisely what you are asking the rUK to do if Scotland went independent yet wanted to retain the Pound and use the BoE. By issuing debt in UK Pounds, the Scottish would be effectively asking the rUK to underwrite it.

The fact you have got so testy about it shows you don't understand the implications.

originally posted by: mclarenmp4
a reply to: stumason

Is that all you've got left. Ah well good seeing you again Stu, take care.

All I have left? Huh?

It was the only point out of your post that I felt needed debating - the rest was you replying to me about the EEA or predictions for the far future and I didn't feel any need to address anything - I actually agree with you on quite a lot of what you say. The only thing I disagreed on was the whole assertion England drains Scotland of Oil money.

Honestly, you guys get pissy if we suggested Scotland drains the UK of benefit money, because obviously you all layabout Rab C Nesbit types (sarcasm, btw), but it's ok for you guys to claim we drain all of your oil cash?

And when presented with not one, but two maps showing the distribution of the Oil/Gas fields, you saunter off as if you've won without any kind of rebuttal?

And there I was, at the start of my posting in this thread, trying to be polite and even injecting humour, but both you and Solo have got progressively worse as the debate has worn on.

Scotland subsidising the rest of the UK

Proof of Wastemonsters interference on Scottish independence..

a reply to: stumason

Who got testy? I merely respond to what i thought was a thinly veiled attack in a reasoned manner, I ended the debate.
It's not as if you haven't used the bailout term before, but now you've explained it I can see your point.
It's just as much our treasury as it is yours besides we have the queen as our head of state and it's her treasury and lets not forget we had the pound before we joined the union so the pound is as much ours as yours and the BOE is an independent entity so should have no interest in this debate.
Our economies as are so closely matched it makes sense as a transitional currency and if we vote yes then we also have to negotiate our part in the national debt, so it would make sense to stick with the pound. If not then negotiating our part of the debt might be harder to do. It's all about bargaining, I'm sure if we get the Yes vote they will let us keep the pound.

No Borders, London and wastemonster funded...So much for David Camorons statement that this is a decision for the people of Scotland..
BBc Propaganda hits a all time low

a reply to: stumason

I wasn't going to debate percentages when I used the commonly used number of 90%, it was merely a closing statement to the actual post I was responding to. Hence why I said that because I really don't care if it's 60% or 90% it's irrelevant to me in this discussion and wasn't a topic we were discussing.

OK i'll be honest it was a little condescending that post but that was off the back of my previous post where I thought you were insinuating that you were going to have to bail us out again, so a little condescension happened but apart from them my posts have been optimistic and not gotten worse until your euphemism. I enjoy the debate.