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Scottish independence: Barack Obama backs 'strong and united' UK

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posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 04:42 PM
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a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

Gordi, I've spent a hell of a lot of time with and around Scots, here in England, in Scotland and various other spots on the continent.
I have enormous regard and respect for them.
As a rule of thumb I thoroughly enjoy their company.
I've laughed with them, I've cried with them, I've fought with them, I've loved with them and I've argued and debated.
I've partied with them and I've paid solemn respect with them.
I've set the world to rights with them on many an occasion whilst also experiencing some of the most remarkable acts of friendship and kindness anyone could imagine from them.

And I can assure you I have met quite a few Scots who absolutely despise 'the bastard English' and blame them for all of Scotland's ill's.

But I can give equal assurance that I've never intended to imply that it is every Scots man or woman who thinks like that.
In fact I can categorically state that I know its only a small minority.
But the important point here is that there are SOME who feel like that.

The last thing anyone could accuse me of is being anti-Scottish.
But that doesn't mean I like everything I see or hear on my frequent visits to Scotland.

And the reason I am so passionate about believing that we have a better chance of effecting positive change within the whole of the UK by staying together is because of the regard and esteem I have for Scotland and its people.



(Scots do have a tendency to bristle against anyone who noises them up the wrong way, perhaps - if you displayed a more neutral or pro-Scot attitude you'd get a better personal response from them?)


And I'm from North East England.....and we have a reputation for straight talking and wearing our hearts on our sleeves.

I generally have a great response from Scots people - I have many very good friends there who I visit often.
But I wouldn't change my character or be quiet about my opinions just to garner a more friendly reception from anyone, regardless of nationality.



The whole point about the referendum is that we Scots ARE taking responsibility, we WANT the responsibility of sorting out our problems, but our hands (and finances and taxation and resources...) are currently tied up by a Westminster Government that has a very different agenda from what we want.


I fully understand that is the primary reason why many Scots like yourself will be voting for independence.
And I wholeheartedly respect that.

But its not the primary reason for some.

As I've said on several occasions - Scotland will do as Scotland see's fit.....and that's exactly as it should be.

But no matter what decision it makes I can see some hard times ahead for Scotland and its people - there will be some fall out when its all over and some bitter recriminations.
And there seems to be some deep divisions in Scotland itself that could easily fester if left unaddressed.

I will continue to express my personal opinions on the subject when I feel I may have something to offer but I assure you, regardless of the result of the referendum, I wish Scotland and its people all the very best for the future and intend to continue my regular visits over the border.




posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 04:42 PM
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a reply to: theabsolutetruth

Hey ab,
No worries.
You're preaching to the already converted!
I KNOW that there are uninformed people out there (on both sides by the way!)
I'm aware that there is ignorance and Anti-English sentiments.
(Especially on social media where idiots can post whatever they like with very little chance of comeback)

I said that I hadn't personally come across that attitude when discussing the Independence referendum IN PERSON with real people on the streets, pubs and cafes here. It just hasn't cropped up.

We are fed up with the Westminster Government! not the English people.
And I am well aware that many regions in the UK outside of Scotland have issues and problems with Westminster, but that is not what we are discussing here, and quite frankly that is for the people of those regions to sort out.
(I've already suggested more autonomy and devolved powers to the regions and islands btw!)
cheers, and thanks for the input!
G



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 04:45 PM
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a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

Actually, if you read my post again, you will see I wasn't blaming the Scottish.

I'll post it again so you can see, as you clearly didn't read it properly last time.



For years, the Westminster Government (led by Scotsmen Blair and Brown) saw "no need" to address the so called "West Lothian" question,


And you know what, during Labour's tenure, John Reid MP and the former Lord Chancellor, Lord Irvine (both Scotsmen, under Scots Prime Ministers who relied on being able to vote on English matters to maintain their jobs....) said "the best answer to the West Lothian question is to stop asking it" - in effect, dismissing legitimate concerns (that are even supported by the majority of Scots voters when asked) about lawmaking in England

EDIT: It is also totally disingenuous of you to try and shut me up with claims of going Off topic, when I was actually responding to another Scotsman claiming they wanted to be free from the "English parliament". Is it not therefore "on topic" to refute such ridiculous claims and point out that, actually, the situation is the reverse?
edit on 10/6/14 by stumason because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 04:49 PM
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a reply to: theabsolutetruth

ab - I'm sorry but it is true.

Most, if not all of your linked stories are based on the premise that Scotland would DECLARE independence.

As I've already explained, that is NOT what we intend to do.

This whole story cropped up because a Better Together campaigner asked a Spanish representative of the EU what would Scotland's position be IF THEY DECLARED INDEPENDENCE.
They correctly stated that Scotland would no longer be a member state IF THEY DECLARED INDEPENDENCE.
The a big HooHaa and the press (and BBC) are all over it like a rash, completely ignoring the fact that Scotland would NOT be declaring Independence for almost 2 years after the Vote!!!

We would be informing the EU of our decision to move towards Independence, and then negotiating that position from within the EU.
regards,
G



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 05:05 PM
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I wish the Scots would just hurry up and leave already so we can go in and invade
.
Also If the vote is a No we in England should have the vote to say If we want them in or not lol.

Oh and USAers This isn't Braveheart you know so stop bleating freedom when William Wallace was nothing like Mel Gibson in that #e movie.



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 05:11 PM
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a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

I think the reports are suggesting that isn't standard procedure or protocol and asking for special terms wouldn't be tolerated by other member states.

Additionally rejoining the EU would depend on member states votes, some of which would vote against because of their own nationalist issues.

Basically debating future terms as an independent country whilst being part of the UK isn't protocol. Any independent country would have to go through the procedures as do other independent countries.

Here it is again.

www.bbc.co.uk...


In his interview with Andrew Marr, Mr Barroso said: "In case there is a new country, a new state, coming out of a current member state it will have to apply."

He said it was important that "accession to the European Union will have to be approved by all other member states of the European Union."

He went on: "Of course it will be extremely difficult to get the approval of all the other member states to have a new member coming from one member state."

Mr Barroso cited the example of the Spanish not recognising Kosovo.



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 05:11 PM
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a reply to: stumason

Stu,
I'm sorry if you're taking my comments the wrong way.
I simply asked who you were referring to, and I'm actually still not sure! (You did refer to the "Scotsmen Blair and Brown" and in the very next paragraph talked about English National Identity being suppressed, so I just ASKED for clarification)

Is the the successive UK governments?

The West Lothian Question is a very valid one for discussion, but I'm just not sure that this is the correct thread for that?
Hey - Now that I think about it, Scotland's Independence would cure a big chunk of that problem too! LOL

Also, I did not try to shut you up!
I actually suggested starting a whole other thread to discuss your points!

kindest regards,
G



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 05:22 PM
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a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

I think me and you want pretty much the same thing for the people of the UK.

Where we differ is how to go about achieving those goals.

I believe we have a much better chance of doing this by remaining together - strength in numbers, unity etc.
You believe that by taking independence and starting somewhat with a blank piece of paper that you can become sort of model for the regions of the UK.



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 05:24 PM
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a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

Ok...

The only reason I brought it up at all was because of this misconception amongst some that there is an English parliament running the show, when it quite clearly hasn't been the case. Everything I said in reference to that was to point out the contrary side to this - I wasn't trying to derail the thread mind.

I was referring generally to Westminster, my reference to the Scotsmen was just to highlight again how it isn't the "English" parliament.



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 05:30 PM
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a reply to: stumason

Thanks Stu - That does clear it up for me.

I can fully appreciate your frustrations at not having a devolved parliament for England by the way.

kindest regards
G



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 05:35 PM
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a reply to: Freeborn

Hi Free,
Absolutely my friend!
and I know how much of a connection to "us lot" you've got!

I'd LOVE it if Scotland (and the regions) had much more say, and separation politically from London, WITHOUT having to break up the union, but unfortunately that option is not on the table at the moment.

Maybe we need a completely new political movement? Independence for LONDON!!

Thank you again for your understanding, participation and camaraderie!

regards,
G



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 05:39 PM
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a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

Cool


I used to support the English Democrats for that very reason, but lately it seems they are full of whckjobs so don't really support them too much these days, although I still believe that, like the other nations, England only matters should be voted on by English MP's only.



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 08:56 PM
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originally posted by: TritonTaranis

originally posted by: openminded2011
a reply to: crazyewok

As a descendant of Scots I can only say...........




So your opinion is based on hate ?

Ahh just as expected

Cmon now I thought we was past all this dark ages BS, isn't it about time we all moved on?

I am disappointed

Wow, you kind of lost me there. How do you get "hate" out of depiction of a man longing for freedom with his last dying breath as he is murdered ? Can you be a little more specific as to how that equates to hate?


edit on 10-6-2014 by openminded2011 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 10:11 PM
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a reply to: openminded2011

Well, aside from the fact the film is full of factual errors and pre-dates the Act of Union by, what, 500 years, you basing your opinion on a Hollywood film made by an Anglophobe such as Mel Gibson, whilst at the same time ignoring half a millennia of history prior to Scotland becoming part of the UK willingly is not a good start.

Not to mention the fact the name "Wallace" actually implies his family is Welsh in origin, most likely from Cumbria, making him an Anglo-Welshman and not a Scot in the slightest. Alternatively, the name could also be Anglo-Norman, meaning his family was part of the Norman nobility who invaded Scotland originally! Either way, shaky ground to be basing any kind of Scottish nationalism on!

Let's also ignore the fact he fought to put the Bruce's back on the throne, a family that is most definitely not Scottish!

Also, you are clearly not aware of the context surrounding the Scottish-English wars of the period - the Scottish clans fought amongst themselves for years over the crown, causing instability south of the border as well as causing strategic concerns for England herself with such an unstable nation to the North when the French were prowling around. In fact, later after the period in which the film is set Scotland was, for a long time, in alliance with France and more often than not was the invader into England in order to try and weaken England for the French.

These are just a few of the reasons we get so bloody annoyed when morons pipe up with the Braveheart crap as if it is some documentary - not only is the film full of errors and bollocks, but ignores the context in which the conflict took place as well as the history preceding and following the period.



posted on Jun, 11 2014 @ 02:25 AM
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originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: openminded2011

whilst at the same time ignoring half a millennia of history prior to Scotland becoming part of the UK willingly is not a good start.


Willingly...What complete and utter crap.... The Scottish people never had any say or vote in becoming part of the UK..
After The failed Darien Project...A failed adventure where the Rich Lords and Land owners Gambled with Scotland's Money and failed miserably. Those same Lords were given an ultimatum and a cash incentive to "willing" sign up or lose everything..
I dont remember the exact amount or who got what, but it worked out that the Scots were sold into Englands rule for Two a Penny..
To say we were are now part of a UK "willingly" is way off the mark...in fact, its just plain Lies.
edit on 11-6-2014 by Soloprotocol because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 11 2014 @ 03:48 AM
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Name one country in the World that has vast oil and gas resources but chooses to let another country steal it from them.... oh yeah, that would be Scotland...Pathetic.
Scotland's Oil..The Truth
edit on 11-6-2014 by Soloprotocol because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 11 2014 @ 03:54 AM
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a reply to: boymonkey74

"I wish the Scots would just hurry up and leave already so we can go in and invade"

Have to say i have no idea what any invaders would be after it's not like we will have much left after the current occupation.
LoL

"Also If the vote is a No we in England should have the vote to say If we want them in or not lol."

What about the people who voted NO in Scotland, should England be able to vote them out of the UK if the above turn of events take place?

"Oh and USAers This isn't Braveheart you know so stop bleating freedom when William Wallace was nothing like Mel Gibson in that #e movie."

True enough he was a cattle thief and outlaw but he did indeed manage to unite the warring clans to some degree and even sack York, hence the statue at Stirling.

Personally i don't think a YES vote will win this time around which is not to say it will never come to pass. That being said my grandparents fought for our United Kingdom not just for Scotland, I don't think they would be to chuffed if we do go down the independent road.

edit on 11-6-2014 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 11 2014 @ 04:25 AM
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a reply to: Soloprotocol

Thing is those Oil and Gas fields are no longer quite so vast and the cost of removing said oil/gas is ultimately only going to increase.



edit on 11-6-2014 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 11 2014 @ 08:35 AM
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originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Soloprotocol

Thing is those Oil and Gas fields are no longer quite so vast and the cost of removing said oil/gas is ultimately only going to increase.



Wes t coast oil

more lovely stuff

oh dear
"I have reported for nearly two years here that it was a well known fact that there is a large amount of oil off the West Coast in the Atlantic off the Western Isles, having spoken to a French Oil geologist back in the 80′s who was surveying for an oil company up there…To quote him…” We think that the potential for oil out in these waters would make the amount in the whole of the North sea seem like a basin full by comparison, but we are not allowed by the British government to drill there

Should we be grabbing whatever we have left while we still got the chance....YES
edit on 11-6-2014 by Soloprotocol because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 11 2014 @ 08:36 AM
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J.K.Rowling the next one up I see. Donation of £1,000,000 to the "Better Together" campaign. She is a bosom buddy of the Browns, who also support the campaign. May ruffle a few feathers in the yes camp?



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