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Scottish independence: Barack Obama backs 'strong and united' UK

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posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 08:30 AM
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a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

You're right, Gord. I meant no offense. If Scotland wants independence, then I hope you get it.




posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 09:23 AM
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Possibly slightly off-topic but some interesting articles on the BBC News website, (yes, I know their credibility has taken something of a bashing recently).

www.bbc.co.uk...
www.bbc.co.uk...
www.bbc.co.uk...
www.bbc.co.uk...



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 09:30 AM
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a reply to: crazyewok

I've gotta say I'm pro independence I belive its up to the pepole ,I'm from a city in central scotland called glasgow and my name is john and everyone I speak too around glasgow all tell me the same thing and that's we don't want to be under the english govermemts rule as the gorvermemnt has caused more harm than good to scotland.



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 11:28 AM
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a reply to: AntiBBC1989

And there is a shining example of misinformation being allowed to permeate - there is no "English" Government. It is the Government of the UK and includes MP's from Wales, NI, England and Scotland.

In fact, England is the only home nation to not have any form of "home rule", instead having our laws decided by a mix of MP's from all the home nations, at times allowing laws to pass that they didn't have back home (Tuition fee's, for example)



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 11:34 AM
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originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: AntiBBC1989

And there is a shining example of misinformation being allowed to permeate - there is no "English" Government. It is the Government of the UK and includes MP's from Wales, NI, England and Scotland.

In fact, England is the only home nation to not have any form of "home rule", instead having our laws decided by a mix of MP's from all the home nations, at times allowing laws to pass that they didn't have back home (Tuition fee's, for example)
Well why not have a referendum to break away from Scotland, Wales and NI...you could kill 3 birds with the one stone and we would probably all be happy.
edit on 10-6-2014 by Soloprotocol because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 11:42 AM
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originally posted by: AntiBBC1989
a reply to: crazyewok

I've gotta say I'm pro independence I belive its up to the pepole ,I'm from a city in central scotland called glasgow and my name is john and everyone I speak too around glasgow all tell me the same thing and that's we don't want to be under the english govermemts rule as the gorvermemnt has caused more harm than good to scotland.


Hi John,
You just touched on a very interesting point.
I get the exact same impression from actually talking to people, real people on the street or in the pubs and cafes.
VERY strong support for independence that doesn't seem to match the "official" poll results.
I am completely befuddled by the Better Together campaign leading the official polls when it's pretty hard to find many people on the street who are actually supporting them.

We even did our own little straw poll on another popular web-based forum.
It was not a political forum or even thread, it was a local "debates" forum, where people could raise and discuss concerns about local issues, and someone happened to mention the Indy debate.

So, a poll was taken using that site's own mini survey-generator facility, and you could vote once for either YES or NO to Independence, and guess what..

At last count there were something like 46 YES to 6 NO votes cast.
The voting was anonymous too, so it's not as if people felt pressured to vote one way or the other, but that is the level of support that I've been seeing here.
It's all very strange.
G



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 01:47 PM
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a reply to: stumason

Those bastard English again....but of course no-one in Scotland hates the English and they don't use them as a scapegoat for everything that is wrong in Scotland - I mean, surely at least SOME of the responsibility for Scotland's problems couldn't be down to the Scots themselves....could it?

For every Scots person who I hear give a perfectly reasoned explanation why there isn't an element of anti-English sentiment in their support for Scottish independence there is at least one other person who is quite open and frank in expressing their anti-English opinions and saying it is the single, biggest reason they want independence.
And I don't mean here on ATS, I mean out there, in the streets and pubs talking to Scottish people, many of whom I have known for a hell of a lot of years.


edit on 10/6/14 by Freeborn because: Spelling, grammar, clarity etc



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 01:49 PM
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a reply to: Soloprotocol

For years, the Westminster Government (led by Scotsmen Blair and Brown) saw "no need" to address the so called "West Lothian" question, mainly because doing so would undermine their own power base in the UK Parliament. Because there is no English parliament, there can be no English Government to suggest a referendum, like has happened in Scotland.

The English have had their national identity suppressed, while those of Wales, Ireland and Scotland have been allowed to flourish - quite often, it used to be the case that merely flying the cross of St George would have you branded a racist but you could quite happily fly the Saltire or any other flag while being praised for being "proud of your heritage"...



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 02:19 PM
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originally posted by: TownCryer
a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

You're right, Gord. I meant no offense. If Scotland wants independence, then I hope you get it.


but what if the the rest of Albion doesnt want to be forced to be a seperate country (South Britain, Alba Deas)? What if we don't want to be cast adrift?

How is it fair we have no say in our future?



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 03:23 PM
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originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: Soloprotocol

...The English have had their national identity suppressed, while those of Wales, Ireland and Scotland have been allowed to flourish - quite often, it used to be the case that merely flying the cross of St George would have you branded a racist but you could quite happily fly the Saltire or any other flag while being praised for being "proud of your heritage"...


Hi Stu,
I'm just wondering who you are talking about here?
Who do you think has suppressed the English national Identity?
Who has "allowed" the others to flourish?
Who's branding bearers of the St George Cross racist?

cheers,
G



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 03:40 PM
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originally posted by: Soloprotocol

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: AntiBBC1989

And there is a shining example of misinformation being allowed to permeate - there is no "English" Government. It is the Government of the UK and includes MP's from Wales, NI, England and Scotland.

In fact, England is the only home nation to not have any form of "home rule", instead having our laws decided by a mix of MP's from all the home nations, at times allowing laws to pass that they didn't have back home (Tuition fee's, for example)
Well why not have a referendum to break away from Scotland, Wales and NI...you could kill 3 birds with the one stone and we would probably all be happy.


But why would we want to divide our Land up?

Whats wrong with putting petty politics aside and livng together as one?



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 03:40 PM
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originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: stumason

Those bastard English again....but of course no-one in Scotland hates the English and they don't use them as a scapegoat for everything that is wrong in Scotland - I mean, surely at least SOME of the responsibility for Scotland's problems couldn't be down to the Scots themselves....could it?

For every Scots person who I hear give a perfectly reasoned explanation why there isn't an element of anti-English sentiment in their support for Scottish independence there is at least one other person who is quite open and frank in expressing their anti-English opinions and saying it is the single, biggest reason they want independence.
And I don't mean here on ATS, I mean out there, in the streets and pubs talking to Scottish people, many of whom I have known for a hell of a lot of years.


Hi Free,
I hate to point it out but no one used the "B" word here but you.
and No one that I've seen here stated that they hate the English.
and No one that I've seen here has used England as a scapegoat.
or stated that none of Scotland's problems were down to the Scots.

I have no doubt that there are still some Scots (you've mentioned meeting some) that display anti-English sentiments, but I honestly haven't come across that at all when discussing the referendum up here (on a daily basis).
Your post comes across as being very Anti-Scottish tbh.
(Scots do have a tendency to bristle against anyone who noises them up the wrong way, perhaps - if you displayed a more neutral or pro-Scot attitude you'd get a better personal response from them?)

The whole point about the referendum is that we Scots ARE taking responsibility, we WANT the responsibility of sorting out our problems, but our hands (and finances and taxation and resources...) are currently tied up by a Westminster Government that has a very different agenda from what we want.

regards,
G



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 03:52 PM
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I wouldn't normally defend anything from the mouth of a US president sans good cause but in the interest of voters in such a shambolic denationalisation, it was going to appear somewhen and it might well influence many.

The facts are that the world is global and many nations interdependent, obviously the UK / US is one of the most well known of these inter dependencies and it doesn't take much to see who is the bigger / stronger partner.

A lot of businesses in the UK are US based or US backed as well as general trade and relations, political, business and other that might otherwise be influenced by such denationalisation decisions.

Just the same as Scotland would have to get to the back of the queue to apply to rejoin the EU, it's relationship with the US might also have consequences under denationalisation. It should be a consideration for those voting.



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 03:57 PM
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a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

Oh c'mon, Gordi - don't tell me you're not aware of people being asked to remove St Georges crosses from houses, shops or what have you as it might be "offensive"? Or how, despite years of asking for it, St Georges Day won't ever be made a Bank Holiday. Or how the Government (especially of Blair and Brown but continuing in Labour under Milliband) simply refusing to confront the issue of the West Lothian question or to admit that there is an English identity.

Here are just a few examples of what I am on about and these are just in the past few years - it was far worse under the Labour Government:

www.washingtontimes.com...

www.express.co.uk...

www.bbc.co.uk...

news.bbc.co.uk...

www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk...

I think you are deliberately pretending to not be aware of this - you cannot be this naive or not have been aware of it happening, surely?



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 04:09 PM
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originally posted by: AndyMayhew
....But why would we want to divide our Land up?
Whats wrong with putting petty politics aside and livng together as one?


Hi Andy,
tbh - I don't think that many people really want to divide our land up.
I personally believe that we ARE stronger together.

BUT, and it's a huge but!
The UK Government is not representative of Scotland's wishes and needs. (Or those of the many regions in England, Wales and NI too!) It is VERY VERY London-centric, and it is only getting worse.

We in Scotland do not currently get the Government that we vote for. (You could remove the Scottish vote from each of the last 8 UK general elections and the outcome would have been exactly the same.)
We do not have a big enough say within the UK government to influence policy and are continually and consistently being dragged into situations that we want nothing to do with.
It's not just petty politics unfortunately, and it can't realistically be resolved in any other way, than choosing an Independent government with full powers for Scotland.

I'll put it another way.
What if YOUR country was in a union with a much larger neighbour?

You have an "Equal" say in the unified government, but because you have a smaller population, you (rightly or wrongly) have a smaller representation within that government.
Your country has different resources, different industries and a different population and landscape, so your needs are naturally different to those of your neighbour.
But your neighbour's focus is on a different goal, and the harder they push towards that goal the further it takes you away from yours.
You end up in situation where you get fed up with it all.
You know that you are stronger together, but you - your family - your friends - your colleagues - your countrymen - are becoming more and more disillusioned because they cannot see how they will ever get what they want for their own society, when they are being pulled in the other direction by the bigger neighbour.

What do you do?

You push for some devolved powers, and that helps a bit.
But the real root of the problem is still there.
Your bigger neighbour is still pulling you further and further away from where you want to be.

What would YOU do?

Scotland has an opportunity to do something about it.
It's NOT ideal, and most of us do not want to have to choose, but what other choice to we have?
We will NEVER have a big enough say in Westminster to make any real difference.

I don't see any reason why we cannot have an independent Scotland (AND England, and Wales and N.Ireland for that matter) as well as delivering more autonomy and devolved powers for the islands and regions within those countries, AND still be close allies, friends, trading partners, neighbours etc
STILL in a UNION, but NOT necessarily tied to a political one.
We WOULD all still be British, these are the British Isles and Scotland takes up the northern 1/3 or so of them.
We could still collaborate on projects that suit us ALL for our mutual benefit.

I don't see a down side.



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 04:15 PM
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a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

I don't mean to butt in, though perhaps some neutral perspective.

I grew up in Scotland, and moved more than 25 years ago to Southern England when I was a teenager. Most of my friends and family are against Scottish Independence though some are staunch supporters of it.

I personally think it wouldn't be in either Scotland's or the nation's interest but I won't argue about it on ATS, I have better things to do.

However I do hear plenty about it every time I look at my facebook homepage, which is often as a lot of family and friends are around the world and it's a way of communicating.

There are plenty of English haters in Scotland blaming all of Scotland's issues on the English and on the London based governments. They cannot see that other northern English cities have fared similarly since the decline of their mainstay industries of shipping and manufacturing and the introduction of motorway and air transport, nor that London is itself a giant people and finance sucking entity of it's own, that affects all of the rest of the UK, not just Scotland, just ask the communities in Cornwall and Wales, for example.

It is a fact that UK politics and how things are generally requires total rethinking, but again, part of it is due to how the world is these days, the once great Britain that ruled the seas and many other nations was under different circumstances and being a seafaring nation surrounded by water this was well suited. However now things are global, the UK hasn't the landmass or resources of the current 'gold' such as vast oil and natural resources that has enriched other nations, it's golden era has come and gone, the fact that London still prospers and is markedly more prosperous than the rest of the UK is mostly due to location and wealthy foreign investment.

The UK as a whole needs to reinvent itself as the phoenix and together in my opinion would be better.

Anyway, I won't say too much on my opinion on voting on here but here is an example comment, of which there are many, daily / weekly from a few Scottish independence supporters that clearly don't like, as they say ''English rule''.

This comment was posted earlier about a politician.

''Bitter TwoGits is no more(they pulled the plug today).....No Thanks,you weren't welcome up here either,you London tit!''

The UK needs educating on how it isn't such a great nation anymore, often thanks to politicians (remember Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and David Cameron all have Scottish roots),and how it can once again become great, given the right attitude and political organisation, and that is based on a political revolution of the constructive sort.

edit on 10-6-2014 by theabsolutetruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 04:16 PM
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originally posted by: theabsolutetruth

....Just the same as Scotland would have to get to the back of the queue to apply to rejoin the EU....


Hi ab,
I'm sorry, but that point has already been covered many times.
Scotland is already IN the EU.
If we declared Independence then yes, we would be out of the EU, but THAT IS NOT WHAT we are doing.

We wont be declaring Independence and then applying to rejoin from outside.

We are VOTING on Independence in September, and should the YES vote win, we will then inform the EU of OUR INTENTION to declare independence (with nearly 2 years notice of this).
We would then be negotiating the terms of our future membership of the EU from WITHIN the EU.
VERY different from having to apply from outside.
regards,
G



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 04:23 PM
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a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

I also made it clear "who" I was talking about
and it was in response to the previous posters assertion that there is an English Parliament



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 04:35 PM
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a reply to: stumason

Stu, re-read my post - I didn't say that I wasn't aware of this, and I'm not naive or pretending to be anything!

I asked you who you thought was responsible, because you mentioned "Scotsmen" Blair and Brown, and then went on to talk about suppression of English National Identity - thereby implying that the Scots were responsible.

BUT:
From your 1st link:
The local authority in the English county of Devon has ordered cab driver Denise Said to remove three English flag bumper stickers from her vehicle, accusing her of breaching equality laws.
2nd:
The extraordinary ban has been imposed in Labour-dominated Radstock, Somerset, despite the town having just 16 Muslims within its population of 5,620.
3rd:
Labour should not be afraid to talk about England's national identity, Ed Miliband has said, but he rejected calls for an English Parliament.
4th:
Mr Wolfendale, who is English, said there is a place for flag-waving during the World Cup.
But he believes that in the weeks before the tournament, the sight of the English flag being displayed on cars "frequently and overtly" is "unnecessary".

and 5th:
A TEENAGE motorist was told to remove an England flag from his car by a police officer because it could be offensive to immigrants.
Ben Smith, 18, was driving back home to Ingram Road in Melksham on Thursday evening after filling up with petrol, when the officer stopped him on a routine patrol. (in WILTSHIRE)


That's Two English council authorities, an English MP, an English councillor in Wales and an English County Police officer.
What's that lot got to do with Scotsmen? or Scotland? or Scottish Independence? or Scottish anti-English sentiment?
That's why I asked for clarification on WHO you thought was suppressing English National Identity, and quite frankly - if it's not Barack Obama or anything to do with Scottish Independence then you are veering off-topic within this thread.
Maybe the English National Identity problem needs it's own thread?
regards
G



posted on Jun, 10 2014 @ 04:35 PM
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a reply to: Gordi The Drummer

Reports are to the contrary.

www.bbc.co.uk...


An independent Scotland faces at least three years outside the European Union, a group of business leaders has said.

Business For New Europe (BNE) also claimed it would be "next to impossible" for Scotland to rejoin the EU on the UK's current terms.

BNE lists the chairmen of BAE Systems, RBS, ScottishPower and Shell among its advisory board.




Its report, written by BNE associate Dr Daniel Furby, predicted Scotland would leave the EU on independence day and would have to reapply under the normal accession procedure, rather than the "unprecedented, expedited route" suggested in the Scottish government's white paper.

'Accession could slip'
Scotland "would need a temporary agreement to guarantee continued access to the single market" requiring a three-way negotiation between the Scottish government, the UK government and the EU running in parallel with UK-Scottish negotiations on the terms of independence, it said.

The report stated: "It would be next to impossible for Scotland to negotiate a budget rebate like the UK's, and very difficult for it to keep zero VAT rates on food, children's clothing and books.

"Scotland would also find it very hard to negotiate a formal opt-out from the euro, and if it did succeed in securing a currency union with the remaining UK - as the Scottish government has proposed, although the UK government has rejected that - that very fact would seriously complicate negotiations on EU membership.

"If negotiations between the UK and Scottish governments dragged on, or if Scotland pushed for special deals from the EU, the date of accession could slip into the next decade."





But Manuel Barroso, the president of the European commission, appeared to confirm that membership treaties would no longer apply to a newly independent country.

In a written answer to Scottish Labour MEP David Martin, Mr Barroso referred to previous legal advice issued in 2004.

An independent Scotland would also have to be unanimously approved for membership by all other EU countries.

But Spain, Belgium and Cyprus could be reluctant to do so as they are battling with nationalists at home.

Spanish foreign minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo suggested in October that Scotland ‘would have to get to the back of the queue’ if it wanted to re-apply to the EU.

Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk...


www.huffingtonpost.co.uk...


He said: "If Scotland vote for independence they are no longer members of the EU and it's become clearer and clearer since this campaign started that they would have to reapply to join the EU and as such, as an independent country, they would have to queue up as it were behind other countries - for instance those in the western Balkans that are already on the path towards membership.

"This is yet another reason why I very much hope that the Scottish people will vote no, will vote to remain in the United Kingdom. I think we're a successful family of nations all bringing something to this United Kingdom. Let's hope that we'll stay together. I think the risks of separation are very great."

Cameron said he was "confident" that the No campaign would win and said the issue of Europe was just one of the risks.

Listing other issues he said "The risk that outside the UK you wouldn't keep the pound, the risk that outside the UK you've got to reapply to the EU, the risk that outside the UK you wouldn't have such a strong economy with so many jobs and you know, in the end, it's a positive argument I'm making because I think the UK has been a great success story.


Barosso video and link


European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso has said it would be "extremely difficult, if not impossible" for an independent Scotland to join the European Union.

Speaking to the BBC's Andrew Marr he said an independent Scotland would have to apply for membership and get the approval of all current member states.

In his interview with Andrew Marr, Mr Barroso said: "In case there is a new country, a new state, coming out of a current member state it will have to apply."

He said it was important that "accession to the European Union will have to be approved by all other member states of the European Union."

He went on: "Of course it will be extremely difficult to get the approval of all the other member states to have a new member coming from one member state."

Mr Barroso cited the example of the Spanish not recognising Kosovo.

He said: "We have seen Spain has been opposing even the recognition of Kosovo, for instance. So it is to some extent a similar case because it's a new country and so I believe it's going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible, a new member state coming out of our countries getting the agreement of the others."


www.fundweb.co.uk...< br />
edit on 10-6-2014 by theabsolutetruth because: (no reason given)



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