The Myth of Eternal Damnation

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: tsingtao
slaves? it might have condoned it but it had restrictions with how to deal with them.

So owning another person is ok, as long as you do it correctly? Good know where you stand on those matters.

today, we don't have slaves so what the bible says, doesn't apply.
but if we did, people would have to abide by the rules. lol.

The rules of owning another person...

if we want to go down that slave path, the owners who broke the rules would be in trouble.

The bible condemns slaves who break their master's rules as well.

no one knows what they will face when being judged.
no man or woman has any ability to tell you what your fate will be.

Yes and I wish more Christians would learn this fact so they stop judging all the people doing things they don't approve of.

lol, where did i say it's ok to own someone else?

we have 2 maids, but they are paid, have a place to live, days and holidays off and they are treated as family and are my friends and they have a contract.
people have been jailed for maltreatment of their domestics, as well they should. some think they are slaves, 24/7.

right now, Tet is doing her thing, later she will give the dogs a bath. they also cook and shop, laundry, wash the car, elderly caregivers, babysitters, run errands, everything you can think of.

a friend of mine has 5 maids, a cook and 2 drivers.

slaves were a fact of life through most of history and even still to this day.

it makes sense to have some protocol and rules.

hell, people still get stoned to death. not everyone is doing it but some do.
it's has no place in the modern age, i don't care if it's confined to some 4th world backwater craphole country.
same with slavery.

besides the bible doesn't say we HAVE to have slaves.

a reply to: Skyfloating

It was a blanked "nope, either you worship Jesus, or you're going to be tortured forever". Like that has anything to do with the message of forgiveness and love that Jesus taught.

But that's what literally every Christian tells me.

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
a reply to: Skyfloating

It was a blanked "nope, either you worship Jesus, or you're going to be tortured forever". Like that has anything to do with the message of forgiveness and love that Jesus taught.

But that's what literally every Christian tells me.

Your observation is correct and adequate:

Most "Christians" hate Christ and the sight of their dreary smudge on eternity would give any sensible person the imperative impression that to the "Christian" Jesus had to die for them to live and to them it is imperative he died. To them the office of the Christ is unseen at first sight and crapworth.

An Empire Founded on Death has to Die.

originally posted by: tsingtao
lol, where did i say it's ok to own someone else?

These were your words:

slaves? it might have condoned it but it had restrictions with how to deal with them.

The text above is rationalizing away why the bible allows slaves. Like as long as there are rules to conduct this action, it is ok. Slavery is NEVER ok, I don't care what kind of rules the bible suggests or gives us.

we have 2 maids, but they are paid, have a place to live, days and holidays off and they are treated as family and are my friends and they have a contract.

When you give a worker a salary or wage, they are no longer a slave. Especially when the salary is enough to live on (which you've just elaborated is the case). Not to mention, I'm sure your maids are free to seek new employment if they become dissatisfied with the working conditions at your house for whatever reason. This isn't the case for a slave. Congratulations. I'm glad you pay your maids well, but they weren't my point.

people have been jailed for maltreatment of their domestics, as well they should. some think they are slaves, 24/7.

The people in prison who are considered slaves are the ones who the jails employ for way below minimum wage (not every inmate has to work). Though TECHNICALLY they aren't slaves since they are receiving a wage. I consider this up for debate though, and I don't agree with forcing inmates (especially the non-violent variety who are in for drug charges or something similar) to work for such low income. Especially since once they are released, their lives are ruined since they cannot get a decent job due to their record.

right now, Tet is doing her thing, later she will give the dogs a bath.

they also cook and shop, laundry, wash the car, elderly caregivers, babysitters, run errands, everything you can think of.

a friend of mine has 5 maids, a cook and 2 drivers.

Again maids aren't slaves, they are employees. There is a difference. Stop making this comparison. I'm sure the very maids you just mentioned wouldn't appreciate that comparison either.

slaves were a fact of life through most of history and even still to this day.

Yes I know, but just because that is the case, doesn't make it right or acceptable. Slavery, plain and simple, is the ownership of another human being. I'd say that violates Jesus' Golden Rule quite considerably. I know -I- wouldn't want to be owned by another human being.

it makes sense to have some protocol and rules.

It makes sense to just not allow it.

hell, people still get stoned to death. not everyone is doing it but some do.
it's has no place in the modern age, i don't care if it's confined to some 4th world backwater craphole country.
same with slavery.

Good point, the bible condones this atrocious action as well. Good job further proving my point.

besides the bible doesn't say we HAVE to have slaves.

That is why I used the word "condone" and not "require".

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
a reply to: Skyfloating

It was a blanked "nope, either you worship Jesus, or you're going to be tortured forever". Like that has anything to do with the message of forgiveness and love that Jesus taught.

But that's what literally every Christian tells me.

Your observation is correct and adequate:

Most "Christians" hate Christ and the sight of their dreary smudge on eternity would give any sensible person the imperative impression that to the "Christian" Jesus had to die for them to live and to them it is imperative he died. To them the office of the Christ is unseen at first sight and crapworth.

An Empire Founded on Death has to Die.

True. It's also worth noting that every empire owes its existence to the death of a previous one.

a reply to: AfterInfinity

Yes, that's why the First is the Christ, and he Conquers. When the Christ becomes the common king, all kids of deterioration begind. Therefore a king shall die on his apex of power. And that's why kings are obsolete, arcane and should be depleted. Same goes with religion (Dragon, 'sacred books' -- War). We should be damn happy we have free education and free books. Free admittance to the thoughts of Plato and Archimedes. And Jesus.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: AfterInfinity

Yes, that's why the First is the Christ, and he Conquers. When the Christ becomes the common king, all kids of deterioration begind. Therefore a king shall die on his apex of power. And that's why kings are obsolete, arcane and should be depleted. Same goes with religion (Dragon, 'sacred books' -- War). We should be damn happy we have free education and free books. Free admittance to the thoughts of Plato and Archimedes. And Jesus.

But he will still live as king. And no king lives forever. This is a universe of change, and change means that all kingdoms will fall. The universe itself would have to be rewritten, and I would question the wisdom of rewriting a universe for the benefit of one single being. Sounds a tad bit self-serving, if you ask me.

originally posted by: AfterInfinity

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: AfterInfinity

Yes, that's why the First is the Christ, and he Conquers. When the Christ becomes the common king, all kids of deterioration begind. Therefore a king shall die on his apex of power. And that's why kings are obsolete, arcane and should be depleted. Same goes with religion (Dragon, 'sacred books' -- War). We should be damn happy we have free education and free books. Free admittance to the thoughts of Plato and Archimedes. And Jesus.

But he will still live as king. And no king lives forever. This is a universe of change, and change means that all kingdoms will fall. The universe itself would have to be rewritten, and I would question the wisdom of rewriting a universe for the benefit of one single being. Sounds a tad bit self-serving, if you ask me.

What goes the mantra?

King is dead -- Live the king!

Chess doesn't cease to exist if some bleeder wins the Grand Prix

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

A little more about your time in hell,you see,you don't really have to go there,
It's a figment of somebodys imagination that you have taken on board.In fact,i can barely believe
that somebody with the smarts to go lookin for answers,would even entertain the thought frankly.

a reply to: jmdewey60

Jesus was giving a spiritual understanding that goes beyond just the normal ideas of morality.


Well yes of course but the normal ideas of morality, or I should say moral values, were laid upon us all by Jesus. They did not exist before Jesus came onto the scene. Acceptance of them into one's way of life is of paramount importance. The deeper spiritual understanding can only ensue from acceptance, it cannot precede it. And just because an individual does not fully grasp these deeper spiritual understandings, as you put it, does not mean he/she is not on the right path to discipleship.

a reply to: Shema

. . . on the right path to discipleship.

"It's a tight squeeze" on the right path, Jesus said.
Those ideas did exist but the propulsion to carry it out was lacking, like the rich young ruler who went away sorrowful.

a reply to: infinitedreamer

I'm not sure what you are referring to as for time spent in Hell, because I've never been there and don't currently have any plans of going there. To me Hell is a place along the E-6 just north of Trondheim. And for your information: "Temperatures in Hell can reach −25 °C (−13 °F) during winter."

en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: jmdewey60


I thought I was the only one that thought Revelations didn't belong at the end of the NT

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: AfterInfinity

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: AfterInfinity

Yes, that's why the First is the Christ, and he Conquers. When the Christ becomes the common king, all kids of deterioration begind. Therefore a king shall die on his apex of power. And that's why kings are obsolete, arcane and should be depleted. Same goes with religion (Dragon, 'sacred books' -- War). We should be damn happy we have free education and free books. Free admittance to the thoughts of Plato and Archimedes. And Jesus.

But he will still live as king. And no king lives forever. This is a universe of change, and change means that all kingdoms will fall. The universe itself would have to be rewritten, and I would question the wisdom of rewriting a universe for the benefit of one single being. Sounds a tad bit self-serving, if you ask me.

What goes the mantra?

King is dead -- Live the king!

Chess doesn't cease to exist if some bleeder wins the Grand Prix

This is a universe of change, and change means that all kingdoms will fall. Nothing lasts forever, and anything that does is unnatural.

originally posted by: AfterInfinity


This is a universe of change, and change means that all kingdoms will fall. Nothing lasts forever, and anything that does is unnatural.

Except for the Absolute, the Ultimate, the Real.

You don't get this idea, do you? Even your screenname says you don't.

originally posted by: Skyfloating

originally posted by: AfterInfinity


This is a universe of change, and change means that all kingdoms will fall. Nothing lasts forever, and anything that does is unnatural.

Except for the Absolute, the Ultimate, the Real.

You don't get this idea, do you? Even your screenname says you don't.

Are you saying diamonds or anything can last forever? Then you are wiser than Thoth who is supposed to have said:

"The past has departed and no longer is.
The future has not yet arrived and is yet to be.
Even the present does not last,
so how can it be said to exist,
when it doesn't stay still for a moment."

How can anything last in a world so mutable and ever-changing and ever-decaying? If anything is even near eternal, it is wisdom like what I quoted above.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

How can anything last in a world so mutable and ever-changing and ever-decaying? If anything is even near eternal, it is wisdom like what I quoted above.

When everything is removed, that which is left is that which is real.

One cannot say that there are no constants. Even if everything changes, then change would be the constant. "Everything" would also be a constant. The non-eternal can only exist if there is an eternal.

a reply to: Akragon
"Called Himself the Son of God."

Actually, He called hinself the "Son of Man".
He did accept the title King of the Jews when questioned by Pilate.
He did say "before Abraham was I AM", which is the 1st person of Yahweh. This
describes His oneness with God. He said to his followers "My Father and your Father",
so He didn't claim a unique status.
Even the angel that announced His birth stopped short, saying He shall be CALLED the son of the
Highest. Theology is complicated.

originally posted by: UMayBRite!
a reply to: Akragon
"Called Himself the Son of God."

Actually, He called hinself the "Son of Man".
He did accept the title King of the Jews when questioned by Pilate.

Some might say he was beaten silent and rendered unable to answer.

He did say "before Abraham was I AM", which is the 1st person of Yahweh.

Well, actually, the part of John 8 where Jesus says the above looks more like a fractured sentence to me. It is a peculiar sentence indeed. "Before Abraham was I am..." he stops mid-sentence because people are outraged by him even attempting to answering their self-righteous ox-manure.

The comma (not to be mistaken by Comma Johanneum, I'll get back to that at the end of this post) modern bibles insert after 'was' in order to render the stomp as a meaningful sentence-- is highly imaginative and pure interpretation. There is no punctuation in the old scrolls, and things like capital letters didn't arrive until the Middle Ages, and since the Time of Jesus the Latin alfabet has been extended by quite a few letters. Not to mention how European copyists and printers have extended the general lexicon and added a bunch of new words into our languages in order to found claims of power and dignity based on the Gospel and similar texts. When Jesus lived there existed no word for church and the church concept wasn't even developed. Still you can read in Matthew that Jesus says: "you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church".

And then we have things like additions to Josephus to found claims of Jesus being mentioned by secular sources, and then there is the "Comma Johanneum" or simply "The Comma", an entire verse added to John to invent scriptual backing for the Trinity. And we have the story of "Cast the first stone". Added centuries after the Gospel was written.

a reply to: Skyfloating

Philosophers have pondered these contradictions for ages and ages. The different religions and mythologies all inspect the quarters of the eternal and how 'seemingly nothing is really something that can be anything and becomes everything'. There was a time when I entertained those ideas, but then I realised nothing lasts. Everyone and everything goes away in the end. Nothing, nod even pi can last.