The Myth of Eternal Damnation

I personally don't believe that God exists so would I end up in shell if he does? Why? I don't hate, I have morals and all the rest of it. Would this god chap send me there just for not believing that he exists? Reminds me of some tyrannical dictator that was spoilt as a child.a reply to: FlyersFan

Did Hitler personally kill all those he is accused of? a reply to: Danny85

Sorry didn't read the whole thread but I love this myth!Frightens the converted and gives the rest a jolly good laugh!

a reply to: whitewave

Was just giving a taste to those hungry enough to search it out for themselves, not force-feeding anyone.

I was just trying to go over the points that you had brought up concerning how Jesus fits into this question of Hell, and our own possibility of going to that place.
A lot of people think that they will never go to Hell, based on the idea that they have no sins to worry about, since Jesus supposedly "paid for them" all.
Since that idea is not supported by the Bible, I suggest to Christians and would-be Christians, to reevaluate their reasoning here concerning some sins they may be currently committing, and if they actually endanger him (or her) to Hell.

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: Shema

I rather like what you said which is to say I kinda agree but get out of here to go where?

I meant getting out of Hell, rather than getting out of "here", since I'm not too sure that there is another place to go to that is not essentially the same as what we are presently enjoying in this life.

You didn't mention that bit.

I am currently studying that problem, mostly in the context of the NT writings of Paul.

I think that he frames certain concepts within the apocalyptic viewpoint because he sees the historical point from which he was writing as the apocalypse in action.

But analyzing it to look for specifics as to a future forecast, you rather find these more mundane problems being solved as to the sinful condition of man to the point of being irredeemable as things currently stand.

The antidote to the being lost to the obscurity of non existence, to Paul is the framework of a celebration of life in sharing the gloriousness of the freedom from sin, concerning the aspect of the seemingly obvious harsh reality that it has the power over us to cause our deaths and not just in a temporary manner, but in a way that was too frightening to even contemplate.

Paul, I think, envisions this celebration as the calling of the divine messenger to share in the assembly of the saints, the appreciation of Jesus' status before God, and our obedience to his law in our loving each other.

So to borrow a term from the church, a communion as it is empowered by God, in a real physical spirituality that defies the power of sin to rule over us, as we at that moment, experience a glorification and perfection.

This is like a bolstering of the self to withstand the horrors of death, and all that it entails, such as demons and Hell.

So, what it looks like to me is that here in this book, the New Testament, is the manual for apocalyptic church, the thing that was looked forward to, with the apocalyptic religion that will send us properly prepared for the afterlife, but not especially interested in describing what that might be exactly.

That is quite some answer to my response to an earlier post of yours and if I played some small part in inspiring your efforts then I am humbled. Is this what life is really all about, preparing ourselves for the after-life? It occurs to me that the Ancient Egyptions certainly believed it was. Few people would see it that way these days I shouldn't think.

a reply to: Aedaeum

This is why the bible also says Christ was slain before the foundation of the earth... again, if he wasn't, we would have died in the garden of Eden after Adam sinned. We needed that protection from sin before our earth was even a twinkle in the cosmos.

That comes from Revelation 13:8, where it is often translated that way, to where it sounds like it is saying that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world.
The phrasing in the Greek is ambiguous so lends itself to that reading if the translator is wanting it to say that for one reason or another.
The alternative translation is made clear in the NetBible version,

and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.

Another problem I have is with the seemingly automatic interpretation of "lamb" as being a direct reference to specifically, Jesus.
I think that may come from the mistaken idea that Revelation being the last on the list of books of the Bible means that it was the last book written, so is forced to use the terminology found in the Gospel of John, where John the Baptist calls Jesus "the lamb of God".
I go along with the latest scholarship that says that Revelation may in fact be the earliest book written of the New Testament, so John in that apocalypse was free to use the term as he saw fit, which was to see the Suffering Servant story in Isaiah 53 being played out in a Christian context, where "the lamb" is the people themselves who suffer persecution by others for their faith in Jesus.
That would make the "book of the lamb" the roll book of those martyred and persecuted Christian saints who God foresaw coming from those who would believe in His son when He sent him here into this world.

a reply to: Shema

Is this what life is really all about, preparing ourselves for the after-life? It occurs to me that the Ancient Egyptions certainly believed it was. Few people would see it that way these days I shouldn't think.

I've read some books, you see.
(that's kind of a joke, sometimes you have to read them several times)
One of those is Apocalypticism, Prophecy, and Magic in Early Christianity: Collected Essays, by David E. Aune.
That's one that comes to mind. I don't really recommend people buying books like that because it is really on the academic type side of scholarly books that do not lend themselves to casual reading.
Another one that I had to get out today and look at is Cosmology and Self in the Apostle Paul: The Material Spirit, by Troels Engberg-Pedersen, which deals with the second part of 1 Cor. 15 that talks about the resurrected body.
He (Troels) starts out discussing if you want to understand the NT, do you need to understand the beliefs that existed that the NT came out of.
He thinks so, and his earlier book, that this was the followup to, was Paul and the Stoics.
As to the Egyptians, Paul says it right there, "I will tell you a mystery".
Edit to add: there is a book that I do recommend everyone to buy, which is Lord of the Cosmos: Mithras, Paul, and the Gospel of Mark, by Michael Patella.

a reply to: SirKonstantin
Muhammad was muslim, and Islam doesn't believe Hell is eternal. There are no pictures of Muhammad on purpose so when he died there would be no worshippers of him, just of God. Muslim means a person who submits to the laws of God.

originally posted by: tsingtao
slaves? it might have condoned it but it had restrictions with how to deal with them.

So owning another person is ok, as long as you do it correctly? Good know where you stand on those matters.

today, we don't have slaves so what the bible says, doesn't apply.
but if we did, people would have to abide by the rules. lol.

The rules of owning another person...

if we want to go down that slave path, the owners who broke the rules would be in trouble.

The bible condemns slaves who break their master's rules as well.

no one knows what they will face when being judged.
no man or woman has any ability to tell you what your fate will be.

Yes and I wish more Christians would learn this fact so they stop judging all the people doing things they don't approve of.

Applauding the eternal torture of people who even only slightly deviate from a certain code of conduct or even just dare disagree with it, is the high point of barbaric sadism.

This thread revealed that its proponents wouldnt even grant for different gradiations of punishment according to different levels of sin or merit, like most theologians would. It was a blanked "nope, either you worship Jesus, or you're going to be tortured forever". Like that has anything to do with the message of forgiveness and love that Jesus taught.

In summary, I`d say its a mental condition. Shrinks call it "sadistic personality disorder".

originally posted by: bigcountry08
a reply to: tallcool1
He doesn't believe that the bible is true just like you, your both deceivers. what version of the bible do you believe in? one that manipulates it to the point where everyone goes to heaven even though Christ himself proclaimed that some would not make it to heaven. Nice avatar, thanks for warning us who you really are.

Hmmm...so in your version of Christianity, are you forgiven for judging us to eternal damnation for having a different opinion than you do? As well as judging my character based on a picture (taken of me at Halloween with fake fangs on that I darkened up a bit so as not to completely show my face and have a tiny bit of anonymity)? Oh wait - I took my youngest daughter out trick or treating - now I've damned her eternal soul as well!

Doesn't your gleeful and ecstatic joy at the thought of people being deep fried eternally in some sadistic form of small minded punishment make you equally deserving of hell? I mean - who could be more deserving of torment than the one who hopes...no, lusts for these kinds of torture upon others?

But since I AM a Christian - I forgive you for judging me! May His peace calm your rage!

originally posted by: Skyfloating
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

I learned something new with your post, so thanks for that.

Being burned for refinement is an interesting image. All superflous pieces the soul has accumulated, burnt off.

Exams, trials, screenings and tests is hell good enough for me, I don't have any use or benefit from tossing geezers into some literal furnace. If it happens it probably is the result of some kind of disaster, probably caused by humans. People with such fantasies are not well and would be the ones deserving such an end. If Event Horizon had happened above sea level and the oil caught fire, we could have had a giant sea of fire burning with brimstone off the coast of Texas. Just a thought.

a reply to: Skyfloating

It was a blanked "nope, either you worship Jesus, or you're going to be tortured forever".

Being a Seventh Day Adventist, I was taught differently as a child, so never had these ideas of eternal torment.
You can easily discount it as I did earlier, with scripture.
I looked up "eternal torment" yesterday on Google and here was this web site claiming to destroy the Seventh Day Adventist view, and it was a joke, completely misunderstanding even what the verses were about.
Also as I mentioned earlier, I do now, against my previous indoctrination, believe in a Hell but more like the pre-Christian version of Hades.
Seventh Day Adventistism replaces eternal torment with annihilation, but I am not too sure about that any more, since I have questioned the idea that goes along with it that there is no "you" without the physical body.
Looking at the second part of 1 Corinthians 15 should make you question that, since Paul is clearly talking about a "spirit body".

originally posted by: ConvincedMan
a reply to: tallcool1

If Heaven is only for people who meet the conditions that they claim God and Christ set for us - it will remain eternally empty. Other than Jesus Himself, no one ever has nor ever will meet the standard.

Good! Glad you got it! You see what Christianity is all about.

Christians believe the Bible is the authoritative word of God; that's a foundational requirement of Christianity. Don't believe the Bible is true? Well, you're something other than an authentic Christian.

I am an "authentic" Christian. I try (and often fail) to follow His 2 rules - love God and love one another. But I tend not to think that a book that has been deliberately mistranslated by humans in order to gain power by fear is the authoritative word of God. God does not require a human to speak for Him.

That said, the whole premise of Christianity is that human beings are sinful and can never get to heaven on their own. We can't get there through our good works or by being a good person. The only way we can get there is through Jesus Christ as Savior.

God, being perfectly holy, cannot allow sin in his presence. Christ, the only sinless person, was the only one who met that high standard. He became the perfect sacrifice for humanity's sins. People who believe in and follow Christ (Christians), are credited with his righteousness through justification. We are "made holy" through him.

That's your belief - based on the writings of men decades after the fact and mistranslated over time.

Believe it or not, it's your choice. I'm never going to convince you. You can be angry, skeptical, cynical or just plain stubborn, but you're right: Heaven is only for people who meet the conditions God and Christ set for us, and it's not that WE think that. It's that the Bible says it, especially in Paul's letters, such as Romans and Galatians.

So if I don't agree with your opinion, that makes me angry, skeptical, cynical or just plain stubborn? What is it with you people who claim to be the best Christians - yet ignore the warnings Christ gave over and over about judging others?

So take it or leave it. Take Christ and be born again into his holiness, or leave it and take the consequences in eternity.

Oh, and yes, Christians DO continue to sin. But Christ's death on the cross paid the penalty for our sins past, present and future. He didn't die for those who refuse to believe in him. That would be universalism, and the Bible does NOT teach that.

So according to what you are saying, someone can serve humanity all their life with love and humility but yet they will rot in hell forever in torment because he was an atheist - however a believer can rape and murder all they want and still get into heaven because they believe and are sorry? Wow - that's fair!

a reply to: Skyfloating

Don't shoot the messenger... God said it, not me. The Bible is clear in Romans 3 and makes it more than clear that it is faith in Jesus Christ that saves, not works.

22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

As you can see above, Romans 3:23 says that ALL have sinned, and in Romans 6:23 we see the result of that sin..

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It doesn't matter how "good" someone is, or what "good" they do. The good that people do is only considered good by man, however God has a different opinion. Isaiah 64:6 says..

All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

If you study the Hebrew word for "filthy rags" you will see that the literal meaning of the word is "menstrual rags", so in other words, our righteous works, no matter how good we humans consider them to be, are like bloody tampons to God. I know that is gross, and I apologize for the crassness, but that is the literal translation. The one and only thing that matters is if you believe on the LORD Jesus Christ to save you. In order to do that you must first humble yourself and come to the realization that you are a sinner, have offended God, and that you are in need of a Savior. All of the religions that you named are nothing more than man's creation. Now you may say that about Christianity, and that is fine, but I would argue that you are basing that opinion on preconceived ideas and, no offense, ignorance.

The reason most people tend to disregard Christianity is because they see so called representatives of Christianity on TV, and other media sources, but as a Christian, I have no problem telling you that the TV preachers, and the Westboros of the world are false teachers and cults, and wouldn't know Jesus Christ if He walked up to them and looked them in the face. All religions of this world are nothing more than corrupt perversions of the true and only religion that is acceptable to God, and we see that defined clearly in James 1:27...

Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

That's pretty simple, but it is man that has corrupted it, not God.

There are certain parameters that as humans we are expected to live within, of a moral nature, and the NT defines those parameters in roundabout ways, mostly through analogies. One is not moral bound to believe in God or to become a disciple of Jesus but it goes without saying that if you willingly accept the morals and values preached by Jesus as most of us do even if grudgingly at times, then you are in effect a disciple whether you consider yourself one or not.

Whenever you step beyond these parameters you are risking eternal damnation.

a reply to: OptimusSubprime

The Bible is clear in Romans 3 and makes it more than clear that it is faith in Jesus Christ that saves, not works.

See my earlier post on this thread explaning those verses, www.abovetopsecret.com... "Works" as it is used in the context that you cited, means following the Law of Moses as a proper Jew.
It does not mean that people do not need to be righteous.
Just that you do not need to be a full-on Jew, because there is a righteousness outside of the Law (meaning the old written Mosaic Law).

As you can see above, Romans 3:23 says that ALL have sinned, and in Romans 6:23 we see the result of that sin.

As I explained earlier, Paul was pointing out from the Law itself, that just following the Law was not enough to be truly righteous.

It doesn't matter how "good" someone is, or what "good" they do. The good that people do is only considered good by man, however God has a different opinion. Isaiah 64:6 says..

That verse in Isaiah is not about "being good". It was about how the priests of the temple who kept the Law were made to suffer along with everyone else, for the sins of the people who were worshiping outside of the temple, at local altars and with priests who were not proper priests according to the Law.
The "suffering" was the destruction of Israel by the Assyrians and the destruction of the temple and the captivity by the Babylonians.

I know that is gross, and I apologize for the crassness, but that is the literal translation.

Obviously it is not being used to be understood literally, it is a metaphor for being thrown away like something no one would ever want to reuse for any purpose, being already about as defiled as you can get.
This is how you would have felt if you were a Jew being led off into captivity by the Babylonians, with your country in ruins.

The one and only thing that matters is if you believe on the LORD Jesus Christ to save you. In order to do that you must first humble yourself and come to the realization that you are a sinner, have offended God, and that you are in need of a Savior.

That is not why Paul wrote that in Romans.
He wanted the Jewish converts to Christianity in Rome to humble themselves from thinking that they were better than the Christian converts from paganism.
Once you understand that part, then chapter 3 of Romans suddenly makes sense.
People too often try to spin it to fit their own salvation theories while ignoring what it is actually saying.
Paul was saying that both Jews and gentiles need a savior equally.
Jesus is the proper savior because he is the one channel through which we receive the spirit of God that enables us to be truly righteous.
We can't do it by our own efforts by following more laws than the next person.

a reply to: Shema

. . . if you willingly accept the morals and values preached by Jesus as most of us do even if grudgingly at times, then you are in effect a disciple whether you consider yourself one or not.

Jesus said, "we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen".
So, if you were a disciple of Jesus, then you would know what he was talking about.
Jesus was giving a spiritual understanding that goes beyond just the normal ideas of morality.

One thing we know for sure is that all words in all texts were written by men. Where man is involved, imperfections are manifest. From the original writings, to the interpretations, it's all "touched" by the imperfect mind of man.

I agree with those of you who see God as a LOVING FATHER who would not condemn his own flesh and blood to eternal punishment. That would make him a horrible parent by any culture's definition!
-cwm

a reply to: stormbringer1701

Excellent post! Pretty much the same views I have on the subject.